29th Century Federation vs Empire in ROTJ

[Admiral Johnason]

Would the Federation have a better chance at this point in their future?

My opinion, they would fair better and the war would last longer, but the Federation would still loose.

[Howedar]

Of course they'd have a better chance. Whether they'd win or not is irrelivant, they'd have a better chance.

[SirNitram]

In any sort of straight fight, the 29th gets smashed like a bug. It takes more effect on the Empire's part, but it's still a slaughter.

Of course, now we must endure yet another series of arguments how the 29th will cheat death through gratuitous use of time travel.

[thecreech]

We won't know exactly what they would have but at the rate their tech grows the empire will still destroy them

[thecreech]

oh and to answer the question yes they should have a better chance

[Alyeska]

In any sort of straight fight, the 29th gets smashed like a bug. It takes more effect on the Empire's part, but it's still a slaughter.

Of course, now we must endure yet another series of arguments how the 29th will cheat death through gratuitous use of time travel.

You have no idea if they would win or not. There is to little information about the 29th century Federation to make any concrete conclussions.

[SirNitram]

In any sort of straight fight, the 29th gets smashed like a bug. It takes more effect on the Empire's part, but it's still a slaughter.

Of course, now we must endure yet another series of arguments how the 29th will cheat death through gratuitous use of time travel.

You have no idea if they would win or not. There is to little information about the 29th century Federation to make any concrete conclussions.

I beg to differ. The relevent technologies.. Weapons and shields.. Were not so far advanced that a shuttle could hold up against Voyager. I want you to consider that, Alyeska. Could Old Ironsides withstand an assault by a F-22 Raptor? Technology, by that point, has slowed to a depressing crawl.

[Alyeska]

In any sort of straight fight, the 29th gets smashed like a bug. It takes more effect on the Empire's part, but it's still a slaughter.

Of course, now we must endure yet another series of arguments how the 29th will cheat death through gratuitous use of time travel.

You have no idea if they would win or not. There is to little information about the 29th century Federation to make any concrete conclussions.

I beg to differ. The relevent technologies.. Weapons and shields.. Were not so far advanced that a shuttle could hold up against Voyager. I want you to consider that, Alyeska. Could Old Ironsides withstand an assault by a F-22 Raptor? Technology, by that point, has slowed to a depressing crawl.

I think a more accurate comparison would be a Cesena vs Old Ironsides. One was a shuttle, the other was a warship. Furthermore, that was a Time Shuttle whos primary mission was not combat. At best you know that a small ship from Trek was sufficently advanced to be a threat to something vastly larger then it. Do you know how large their fleets are? Do you know how powerful their shipboard weapons are? Do you know their ranges? Do you know how many planets they have? Do you know their industrial capabilities?

You are making an assumption without enough evidence.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In any sort of straight fight, the 29th gets smashed like a bug. It takes more effect on the Empire's part, but it's still a slaughter.

Of course, now we must endure yet another series of arguments how the 29th will cheat death through gratuitous use of time travel.

You have no idea if they would win or not. There is to little information about the 29th century Federation to make any concrete conclussions.

I beg to differ. The relevent technologies.. Weapons and shields.. Were not so far advanced that a shuttle could hold up against Voyager. I want you to consider that, Alyeska. Could Old Ironsides withstand an assault by a F-22 Raptor? Technology, by that point, has slowed to a depressing crawl.

Seems to me in that case, that the Federation's resource pool hasn't dramatically expanded then.

Are they out of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant yet?

[Alyeska]

You have no idea if they would win or not. There is to little information about the 29th century Federation to make any concrete conclussions.

I beg to differ. The relevent technologies.. Weapons and shields.. Were not so far advanced that a shuttle could hold up against Voyager. I want you to consider that, Alyeska. Could Old Ironsides withstand an assault by a F-22 Raptor? Technology, by that point, has slowed to a depressing crawl.

Seems to me in that case, that the Federation's resource pool hasn't dramatically expanded then.

Are they out of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant yet?

IIRC the two relevant episodes indicated the Federation controled significant portions of the entire Galaxy.

[SirNitram]

You have no idea if they would win or not. There is to little information about the 29th century Federation to make any concrete conclussions.

I beg to differ. The relevent technologies.. Weapons and shields.. Were not so far advanced that a shuttle could hold up against Voyager. I want you to consider that, Alyeska. Could Old Ironsides withstand an assault by a F-22 Raptor? Technology, by that point, has slowed to a depressing crawl.

I think a more accurate comparison would be a Cesena vs Old Ironsides. One was a shuttle, the other was a warship.

Given the number of times we see Shuttles engaging in combat, I'm going to have to laugh at this attempt. Cessna's are not equipped with both direct fire and explosive weapons. F-22's and Starfleet Shuttles, however, are. And it may not be a perfect analogy(Ironsides cannot fly, for example), but it should display the freakin' point: 29th century weapons are not terribly advanced.

Furthermore, that was a Time Shuttle whos primary mission was not combat. At best you know that a small ship from Trek was sufficently advanced to be a threat to something vastly larger then it. Do you know how large their fleets are? Do you know how powerful their shipboard weapons are? Do you know their ranges? Do you know how many planets they have? Do you know their industrial capabilities?

You are making an assumption without enough evidence.

I know they cover a good chunk of their galaxy(Not hard, with their brain-dead and already castrated opposition), that their shuttles are not so advanced as to be immune to the efforts of a science/exploration vessel in the 24th, their temporal technology does nothing not already observed in Voyager's run(Temporal Shields in Year Of Hell, on Voyager herself. Standing outside of the timestreams, the Krenim Timeship. Temporal Rifts, Endgame, Janeway's Shuttle), and they appear to hate mucking with time.

Now, if you have some compelling reason to assume, despite this, they are a match for the Empire, go on and post it.

[RedImperator]

Seems to me in that case, that the Federation's resource pool hasn't dramatically expanded then.

Are they out of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant yet?

Assuming their ships can travel through space or time but not both simultaneously, that shuttle had to have been in the Delta quadrant in he 29th century. So it's reasonable to assume they either control territory out there or they can get out there more easily than a 24th century Federation starship could.

[Alyeska]

Given the number of times we see Shuttles engaging in combat, I'm going to have to laugh at this attempt. Cessna's are not equipped with both direct fire and explosive weapons. F-22's and Starfleet Shuttles, however, are. And it may not be a perfect analogy(Ironsides cannot fly, for example), but it should display the freakin' point: 29th century weapons are not terribly advanced.

Shuttles are used in combat as cannon fodder. We already know there are three other vehicles that have been used as much superior weapons. ST shuttles are like a Huey while the Tac-Fighter is more like a F-16. You also ignore what the Time Shuttles mission was.

I know they cover a good chunk of their galaxy(Not hard, with their brain-dead and already castrated opposition), that their shuttles are not so advanced as to be immune to the efforts of a science/exploration vessel in the 24th, their temporal technology does nothing not already observed in Voyager's run(Temporal Shields in Year Of Hell, on Voyager herself. Standing outside of the timestreams, the Krenim Timeship. Temporal Rifts, Endgame, Janeway's Shuttle), and they appear to hate mucking with time.

Now, if you have some compelling reason to assume, despite this, they are a match for the Empire, go on and post it.

We know the Relativity was stated to be a Time Ship. They make that distinction. Do you know ANYTHING about their fleet? All you know is about their time ships, specificaly their shuttle. You are making assumptions based on no evidence. I can just as easily say the that they built super massive battleships to deal with the Borg.

Unless you can provide any direct evidence all you have is speculation with little supporting evidence.

[SirNitram]

Given the number of times we see Shuttles engaging in combat, I'm going to have to laugh at this attempt. Cessna's are not equipped with both direct fire and explosive weapons. F-22's and Starfleet Shuttles, however, are. And it may not be a perfect analogy(Ironsides cannot fly, for example), but it should display the freakin' point: 29th century weapons are not terribly advanced.

Shuttles are used in combat as cannon fodder. We already know there are three other vehicles that have been used as much superior weapons. ST shuttles are like a Huey while the Tac-Fighter is more like a F-16. You also ignore what the Time Shuttles mission was.

The mission it appeared with? Yes, destroy the USS Voyager. Attack something, something with shields and phasers and torpedos. That's certainly what the gave was raving about, IIRC.

I know they cover a good chunk of their galaxy(Not hard, with their brain-dead and already castrated opposition), that their shuttles are not so advanced as to be immune to the efforts of a science/exploration vessel in the 24th, their temporal technology does nothing not already observed in Voyager's run(Temporal Shields in Year Of Hell, on Voyager herself. Standing outside of the timestreams, the Krenim Timeship. Temporal Rifts, Endgame, Janeway's Shuttle), and they appear to hate mucking with time.

Now, if you have some compelling reason to assume, despite this, they are a match for the Empire, go on and post it.

We know the Relativity was stated to be a Time Ship. They make that distinction. Do you know ANYTHING about their fleet? All you know is about their time ships,

A time ship because it travels through time. A starship because it travels the stars. What prevents, exactly, them from being the fleet?

Is this very little information? Yes. Could there be more? Could be. But I am working with what information exists, and not inventing more. A 29th century warship could probably trash a 24th century one, but that doesn't automatically mean it can withstand a few GT.

[YT300000]

Due to my lack of knowledge about the 29th century Federation, I can't say to what degree they will lose (or, possibly even win, depends on how much they progressed).

Of course they will have a better chance. If you gave the 24th century Federation a 1 hour warning they'd have a better chance, although not much of one.

[Howedar]

Well put.

[YT300000]

Well put.

Thank You.

[Equinox2003]

The 29th century Fed can make a better show than the 24th, if the
sheilding and weapons systems have improved enough. I see no
reason to dwell on timeships, as the question was about combat, not
time travel.

[Sarevok]

Shuttles are used in combat as cannon fodder. We already know there are three other vehicles that have been used as much superior weapons. ST shuttles are like a Huey while the Tac-Fighter is more like a F-16. You also ignore what the Time Shuttles mission was.

I agree with aleyska. If shuttles were effective combat craft federation starships would have launched their shuttles in combat as fightercraft which clearly does not happen. Even a very advanced shuttle such as the delta flyer had a hard time against backward delta quadrant ships.

Regarding the 29th century time shuttle Aeon it was orders of magnitudes
stornger than it's 24th century cousins. Voygers weopenry had abosolutely no effect on the Aeon. On the other hand the Aeon fired a disruptor that punched through voyger's shield and began breaking down voyger's hull at the molecular level. True the shuttle was destroyed when it took a photon torpedo hit in "Future End : part II", the shuttle was piloted by Henry Sterling who as Janeway mentioned knew little about the Aeon and could not possible configure its advanced shielding, he afterall in the original time line killed himself and took out the entire solar system when he messed up the shuttles temporal drive.

Assuming their ships can travel through space or time but not both simultaneously, that shuttle had to have been in the Delta quadrant in he 29th century.

Q mentioned to Janeway in "the Q and the grey" that he was not expecting to see voyger in the delta quadrant because humans were not supposed to arrive here untill the 25th century. Clearly the federation has developed high speed star drives by then. This is supported by the warp 13 speed reached by enterprise-d in "all good things".

I agree with aleyska that no sure conclusions can drawn based on the little information we have. Personaly I believe that the 29th century federation is more powerful than the Empire. The episode "relativity" showed a transporter that beam through shields thousands of lightyears away and hundreds of years in to the past. Their shuttlecraft can destroy entire star systems. Frankly this is seems a bit too powerful for the Empire.

[NecronLord]

Regarding the 29th century time shuttle Aeon it was orders of magnitudes
stornger than it's 24th century cousins.

You could make starfleet 100 times more powerful and they'd still get stomped by the empire.

Their shuttlecraft can destroy entire star systems. Frankly this is seems a bit too powerful for the Empire.

An imperial fighter (the sun crusher) can destroy star systems. Deliberately, and not by freak accidents.

[Col. Crackpot]

if the federation, in the 29th century with the help of Q, Tom Clancy, The Incredible Hulk, Starblazers and Ron Jeremy went up against 3 ISD's on the tuesday after the battle of Yavin and manage to attack while the shields were down and Thrawn was in the can taking a shit, could they pull it off? [Red Foreman] Sure, and if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped! [/red foreman]

[Peregrin Toker]

if the federation, in the 29th century with the help of Q, Tom Clancy, The Incredible Hulk, Starblazers and Ron Jeremy went up against 3 ISD's on the tuesday after the battle of Yavin and manage to attack while the shields were down and Thrawn was in the can taking a shit, could they pull it off?

Must... avoid... making... jokes... about... Ron Jeremy's appearance...

[TurboPhaser]

If the Feds use Temporal weapons (which they apparently do) and if these weapons are effective against Imp ships (i see no reason why they shouldnt be) The Imps would have a problem.

The temporal weapon would probably erase the target out of history, no fuss, no muss.

But really, we dont have enough info.

[Col. Crackpot]

If the Feds use Temporal weapons (which they apparently do) and if these weapons are effective against Imp ships (i see no reason why they shouldnt be) The Imps would have a problem.

The temporal weapon would probably erase the target out of history, no fuss, no muss.

But really, we dont have enough info.

IIRC, the only people to use temporal weaponry in Trek were the Krenim....and their temporal weapons were erased by their temporal weapons if that makes any sense.

[Solauren]

Hmmmm... this is a pickle to figure out....

I'd have to say, it would probably be a fair fight on a gun per gun basis. However, the Empire has lots more guns per ship *unless Starfleet did some design rethinking*

Also the entire battle between Voyager and the Aeon was fairly short, and they had to use a technobabble trick to survive. (Probably a technobabble trick that wasn't possible or Captain Braxton didn't know they could do. Given he had just travelled through time, it's likely something that was never done. Time Travel paradox's, just ignore them, they give you less of a headache)

Now the, assuming the "pod" was a standard shuttle, I'd like to point out that a SHUTTLE's weapons were in the process of trashing what most sources classify as a cruiser/explorer, while Voyager phasers were basically hitting it and bouncing off harmlessly.

Speaking from the point of view of every Sci-fi series I've ever known, watched, or read, shuttles and starfighters usually have weapons far below the big capital ships. Like one or two orders of magnitude.

So, if say, 5 shots from a shuttle from the 29th could trash a 24th cruiser, they'd have to be about the same level of power as that cruisers, or more so. Let's say equal two.

So, if my line of reasoning holds out (anyone got numbers on firepower for Star Trek we can use for a shuttle vs cruiser comparison?) 1 shot from a 29th century cruiser would equal 1000 shots from a 24th century cruiser.

As for the One photon blowing up the Pod. Well, remember, the pod had been damaged in it's fight with Voyager, then landed on earth, where it sat around for 30+ years without service and maitenance, while a Henry Starling monkied with it. Over all, that couldn't be good for it. Combine that with possible damage from being transportered by Voyager and the shattering field etc....

Shields etc are probably about the same level of advancement.

This is comparable to Star Wars level of firepower and shields.

In the end, I'd have to say, it should have better chance of being able to go toe to toe with the Empire.

however, until we get good numbers and evidence (i.e if we saw a 29th century ship blowing up 20 meter asteroids with it's phasers...), I' have to say, in the end

Indeterminate