A different take on "The Survivors"

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 01:34pm

Debaters commonly assume that the Husnock starship we saw in "The Survivors" was entirely a fabricaton of the Douwd, but was it really?

We already know that the Husnock were a real race, since their attack on Rana IV caused the entire incident. We know that one of their ships must have been in the vicinity of Rana IV, since the planet's surface had been devastated.

So what if the Husnock ship that attacked the Enterprise was the real thing? The Douwd (Kevin Uxbridge) would have needed to operate it, possibly creating illusory crew members to carry out essential tasks, but that would certainly be easier than recreating the whole thing from scratch. If this were the case, the inert Husnock ship would really have evaded the Enterprise's sensors by sitting in a Lagrange point, it's weapons would really have been 400+ GW anti-particle beams, it's shields would really have been capable of handling everything the Enterprise could throw at them, and it would really have been capable of outrunning the Enterprise with ease.

We never actually saw this ship appear from nowhere, although it's possible it actually had a cloaking device anyway. Generally it powers up and zooms in from some hiding place. In its first appearance, it lead the Enterprise away from the planet; we didn't see what it did after the Enterprise stopped following it. In its second appearance, it drove the Enterprise away with its superior firepower. In its final appearance, the Enterprise destroyed it with a photon torpedo when it didn't raise its shields. As far as I can tell, all of its actions could have been accomplished by a real ship.

We also know the Douwd has limitations. Sure, he was apparently capable of killing the entire Husnock race on short notice, but there were only 50 billion of them, so they need not have had more than 5 planets populated as densely as modern Earth. If they were as violent as he described, he might have simply tricked them into killing each other with their own WMDs. He might also have been able to create a particularly virulent biological weapon and distribute it on their homeworlds.

We know he wasn't capable of really bringing Rishon back to life. He wasn't capable of protecting the colony from the Husnock's weapons. He wasn't capable of fooling the Husnock into leaving (nor was he capable of fooling the Enterprise, for that matter). He apparently wasn't capable of restoring the planet's biosphere, making just a tiny area habitable instead. His disguise wasn't complete enough to fool a half-Betazoid empath. He couldn't tell that the Enterprise was lurking in high orbit, waiting to see what would happen after the Husnock ship destroyed his "house".

Kevin Uxbridge apparently isn't the "nigh omnipotent being" that many Trekkies think he is. They prefer to think of him that way so they can dismiss the effects of the Husnock weapon on the Enterprise as "acts of god", but upon reflection, I don't think it holds much weight. I think it's more likely that the simply used an existing Husnock ship to try to drive the Enterprise away, and its effects on the Enterprise were quite real.

Posbi · Post by **Posbi** » 2003-06-04 01:55pm

Problem is, are the Husnock really extinct?

We know he wasn't capable of really bringing Rishon back to life. He wasn't capable of protecting the colony from the Husnock's weapons. He wasn't capable of fooling the Husnock into leaving (nor was he capable of fooling the Enterprise, for that matter). He apparently wasn't capable of restoring the planet's biosphere, making just a tiny area habitable instead. His disguise wasn't complete enough to fool a half-Betazoid empath. He couldn't tell that the Enterprise was lurking in high orbit, waiting to see what would happen after the Husnock ship destroyed his "house".

If he can't do all these things, why should we belive that he can annihilate an entire race with the same aggressive potential as RL humans?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 02:26pm

Posbi wrote:Problem is, are the Husnock really extinct?

If he can't do all these things, why should we belive that he can annihilate an entire race with the same aggressive potential as RL humans?

True, we have only his word that the Husnock have been exterminated. I guess it depends on how reliable an information source you consider Kevin Uxbridge to be. He is, after all, a "being of disguises and false surroundings".

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 02:28pm

We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 02:32pm

Ted C wrote:
Posbi wrote:Problem is, are the Husnock really extinct?

If he can't do all these things, why should we belive that he can annihilate an entire race with the same aggressive potential as RL humans?
True, we have only his word that the Husnock have been exterminated. I guess it depends on how reliable an information source you consider Kevin Uxbridge to be. He is, after all, a "being of disguises and false surroundings".

An attack on a characters, character?

Why would he lie over his shameful misdeed?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 02:37pm

TheDarkling wrote:We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.

Why do you think it was "uber'ed up"? We know very well that the Enterprise can set its phasers to a tiny fraction of their normal power. Why should the Husnock weapons be any different?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-04 02:38pm

TheDarkling wrote:We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.

"ubered"? You call 400 GW "uber"?

If (a) real Husnok ship(s) could BDZ a planet (within a few days), 400 GW is nothing.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 02:40pm

TheDarkling wrote:An attack on a [character's] character?

Why would he lie over his shameful misdeed?

Why would he tell the truth about such a thing? We could easily go in the entirely opposite direction, you know.

What if the Husnock never really existed and Uxbridge's entire story is a lie to cover up some other secret that he's protecting?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-04 02:40pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Ted C wrote:
Posbi wrote:Problem is, are the Husnock really extinct?

If he can't do all these things, why should we belive that he can annihilate an entire race with the same aggressive potential as RL humans?
True, we have only his word that the Husnock have been exterminated. I guess it depends on how reliable an information source you consider Kevin Uxbridge to be. He is, after all, a "being of disguises and false surroundings".
An attack on a characters, character?

Why would he lie over his shameful misdeed?

Nice false dilema fallacy. A character doesn't NEED to be delibrately lying to be wrong, especially given the limitations of the dowd already revealed in the first post in this thread.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 02:50pm

Ted C wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.
Why do you think it was "uber'ed up"? We know very well that the Enterprise can set its phasers to a tiny fraction of their normal power. Why should the Husnock weapons be any different?

The ship itself under goes physical changes, the introduction of a third firing arm for a start.

Riker picks up on this and comments on it.

Data mentions the ship can fire far more than it is doing so yet during the first encounter he made no such mention.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 02:52pm

Ted C wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:An attack on a [character's] character?

Why would he lie over his shameful misdeed?
Why would he tell the truth about such a thing? We could easily go in the entirely opposite direction, you know.

What if the Husnock never really existed and Uxbridge's entire story is a lie to cover up some other secret that he's protecting?

Possible I suppose but why assume such?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 02:53pm

Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.
"ubered"? You call 400 GW "uber"? If (a) real Husnok ship(s) could BDZ a planet (within a few days), 400 GW is nothing.

I meant compared to what it was and was specifically refering to Rikers comment about it looking meaner.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 02:55pm

Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:
Ted C wrote: True, we have only his word that the Husnock have been exterminated. I guess it depends on how reliable an information source you consider Kevin Uxbridge to be. He is, after all, a "being of disguises and false surroundings".
An attack on a characters, character?

Why would he lie over his shameful misdeed?
Nice false dilema fallacy. A character doesn't NEED to be delibrately lying to be wrong, especially given the limitations of the dowd already revealed in the first post in this thread.

True enough but most of his limitations seem to be in observation, so its possible he missed some of the aliens but he believes he wiped them all out (thus he did wipe out a lot of them).

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 02:55pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Ted C wrote:Why do you think it was "uber'ed up"? We know very well that the Enterprise can set its phasers to a tiny fraction of their normal power. Why should the Husnock weapons be any different?
The ship itself under goes physical changes, the introduction of a third firing arm for a start.

Riker picks up on this and comments on it.

Please dig up the quote, since I recall nothing of the sort.

TheDarkling wrote:Data mentions the ship can fire far more than it is doing so yet during the first encounter he made no such mention.

Do we really need to go into a list of Data's errors and oversights? They already knew the ship had to be capable of more than 40 MW, since they had already observed that it carried -- in Riker's words -- "enough firepower to pulverize a planet".

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-04 02:57pm

TheDarkling wrote:True enough but most of his limitations seem to be in observation, so its possible he missed some of the aliens but he believes he wiped them all out (thus he did wipe out a lot of them).

Correction: Thus he thinks he wiped out a lot of them. As alteady pointed, he did NOT know that the E-D had returned. How can he know anything about the aliens he supposedly destroyed?

BTW, we KNOW the guy lied through his teeth throughout the rest of the episode. Why do you trust him now?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 03:00pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Ted C wrote: Why would he tell the truth about such a thing? We could easily go in the entirely opposite direction, you know.

What if the Husnock never really existed and Uxbridge's entire story is a lie to cover up some other secret that he's protecting?
Possible I suppose but why assume such?

I didn't; I was just pointing out where you can start going if you ask "Why would he lie?".

There is no objective reason to trust Kevin Uxbridge, but if his statements are accurate, they show the limits of his abilities.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 03:04pm

RIKER
(continuing)
Is it my imagination or does it
look a lot meaner this time?

This is subjective but when you watch the episode it does.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 03:06pm

Ted C wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:
Ted C wrote: Why would he tell the truth about such a thing? We could easily go in the entirely opposite direction, you know.

What if the Husnock never really existed and Uxbridge's entire story is a lie to cover up some other secret that he's protecting?
Possible I suppose but why assume such?
I didn't; I was just pointing out where you can start going if you ask "Why would he lie?".

There is no objective reason to trust Kevin Uxbridge, but if his statements are accurate, they show the limits of his abilities.

Yes but there is not reason to assume he was lying so to the best of his knowledge he killed 50 Billion Husnock.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 03:09pm

Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:True enough but most of his limitations seem to be in observation, so its possible he missed some of the aliens but he believes he wiped them all out (thus he did wipe out a lot of them).
Correction: Thus he thinks he wiped out a lot of them. As alteady pointed, he did NOT know that the E-D had returned. How can he know anything about the aliens he supposedly destroyed?

BTW, we KNOW the guy lied through his teeth throughout the rest of the episode. Why do you trust him now?

So why believe he was controling the ship, prehaps it was Trelane having a lark, in which case Uxbridges limitations are irrelevant or maybe it was Q fooling everbody, we have no reason to believe he was lying so why employ such contortion acts?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 03:34pm

TheDarkling wrote:RIKER: (continuing) Is it my imagination or does it look a lot meaner this time?

This is subjective but when you watch the episode it does.

This does not indicate that the ship looked physically different, only that it approached and maneuvered in a far more aggressive manner.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 03:35pm

TheDarkling wrote:Yes but there is not reason to assume he was lying so to the best of his knowledge he killed 50 Billion Husnock.

You're arguing with the wrong person. I didn't deny that claim.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-04 04:18pm

TheDarkling wrote:So why believe he was controling the ship, prehaps it was Trelane having a lark, in which case Uxbridges limitations are irrelevant or maybe it was Q fooling everbody, we have no reason to believe he was lying so why employ such contortion acts?

Don't add extra terms to the equation. We KNOW Kevin is NOT omnipotent or omniscient. We KNOW he is a liar. We do NOT know Q or Trelane or anyone else was involved.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 04:19pm

Ted C wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:RIKER: (continuing) Is it my imagination or does it look a lot meaner this time?

This is subjective but when you watch the episode it does.
This does not indicate that the ship looked physically different, only that it approached and maneuvered in a far more aggressive manner.

Yes but the ship third firing arm can't be seen in the first scene, now this could just be a trick of the light (it is in shadow at first) and then later of perspective (when it flies over the Enterprise it also seems to be missing), I will have to take another look at it when I get time later.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-04 04:24pm

Darth Servo wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:So why believe he was controling the ship, prehaps it was Trelane having a lark, in which case Uxbridges limitations are irrelevant or maybe it was Q fooling everbody, we have no reason to believe he was lying so why employ such contortion acts?
Don't add extra terms to the equation. We KNOW Kevin is NOT omnipotent or omniscient. We KNOW he is a liar. We do NOT know Q or Trelane or anyone else was involved.

I never he said he was omnipotent and he sure ain't omniscient however can you explain to me why it is probable that he is lying compared to it being true that he killed those 50 Billion Husnock (Which Picard, the crew, the audience, the writers and just about everybody else believes).

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-04 04:55pm

TheDarkling wrote:Yes but the ship third firing arm can't be seen in the first scene, now this could just be a trick of the light (it is in shadow at first) and then later of perspective (when it flies over the Enterprise it also seems to be missing), I will have to take another look at it when I get time later.

Please do, because I don't remember it being any different. I think it even fired it's 40 MW bitch slaps from three hardpoints.