Invasion of England?

[RedImperator]

The invasion must come before September when the seas are still good. And in 1942 it's a suicide run...

And in that case, the Americans sit and do nothing and Germany still loses.

[Raptor 597]

There's a shooting war in the Atlantic already. You don't think Roosevelt might not leverage that plus the fact Germany and Japan are allies into sending some kind of material support to Britian beyond Lend-Lease, if not an outright declared war? At the very least, the United States wouldn't sit back on its ass and watch the Germans overrun England, not when all it would take to stop them are a few crusiers in the Channel.

And yet Lindberg was the sponsor of 1/3 of the nation that wer vehement isolationists the only reason Lend-Lease passed were the gurantee that Britain would pay back her loans. Supporting a democracy is one thing but sending troops and sailors to die when the US isn't at risk is another to them.

You're laboring under the delusion that Roosevelt, with one declaration of war already under his belt, would bother listening to the isolationists. He's commander-in-chief, and it's his perogative to send American armed forces anywhere he pleases. He's can't invade Europe or North Africa, but absolutely nobody can stop him from sending soldiers to England or at the very least ordering the Atlantic Fleet to patrol the English Channel. He probably WOULD do that just to get the Germans to attack the U.S. Navy in international waters and a causus belli.

And if Sealion succedes and England is conquered (which, lacking our hindsight, the military leaders of the time thought that was a ver real possibility), how could England have paid back its loans? The United States will not under any circumstances accept German occupation of England because it will not accept a hostile power contesting the Atlantic. You're overestimating the strength of the isolationists and underestimating the audacity--and popular mandate--of Roosevelt.

Oh, I was under the understanding it was before December 1941. Declaration would be wary yet but if Britain's life was at stake especially after Pearl then yes you'd get war. But all of this assuming the gErmans can actually make it across the channel.

[MKSheppard]

But all of this assuming the gErmans can actually make it across the channel.

That's easy. Commandeer some KdF cruise liners for use as transports to move the troops Why the germans never looked into that, I'll never know...

[Sea Skimmer]

Which is why I allowed for Germany to put off Operation Sealion until ther were ready.

The balance of power will simple shift further into the UK's favor. The Luftwaffe was being ground down and if British strength ever dropped too low they could simply pull back out of Me109 range while still protecting most of the country and preventing an invasion. The British Army would also rapidly grow in strength, by the end of the battle of Britain it was more then able to crush any invasion without the navy sinking everything in transit as it would.

[Sea Skimmer]

*slaps skimmer with a decaying halibut*

Do I have to remind you of the four cruisers sunk in less than two weeks
in the Mediterranean by Luftflotte IV's Ju-87s?

*Drops anvil on Sheppard*

Need I point out the 285 aircraft Germany lost to do it, while operating against forces that had generally absolutely no fighter cover?

[Sea Skimmer]

That's easy. Commandeer some KdF cruise liners for use as transports to move the troops Why the germans never looked into that, I'll never know...

And those will haul heavy equipment and bulk supplies how, and unload with what?

[MKSheppard]

The balance of power will simple shift further into the UK's favor. The Luftwaffe was being ground down and if British strength ever dropped too low they could simply pull back out of Me109 range while still protecting most of the country and preventing an invasion.

And then allow the Germans the capability to control the air over the invasion
beaches and an unending stream of Ju-88s, He-111s, Do-17Zs, and Ju-87s
to bomb the crap out of the British fortifications (what little there were)

[MKSheppard]

And those will haul heavy equipment and bulk supplies how, and unload with what?

*Slaps Skimmer*

And what would you need the heavy equipment for? For fucks' sake, half the
British Army's equipment was on frigging DUNKIRK. The freaking NRA was
actually sending RIFLES overseas to help the british, because they didn't have
enough guns to arm their troops and the civilian population to defend
against the invasion.

[Sea Skimmer]

And then allow the Germans the capability to control the air over the invasion
beaches and an unending stream of Ju-88s, He-111s, Do-17Zs, and Ju-87s
to bomb the crap out of the British fortifications (what little there were)

Except the British can still intercept them, while there own bases are out of range of fighter escorted bomber strikes. Meanwhile the UK is fielding fighters faster then the Germans and will be losing pilots at a fraction of the rate.

[Sea Skimmer]

*Slaps Skimmer*

And what would you need the heavy equipment for? For fucks' sake, half the
British Army's equipment was on frigging DUNKIRK. The freaking NRA was
actually sending RIFLES overseas to help the british, because they didn't have
enough guns to arm their troops and the civilian population to defend
against the invasion.

And the other half was more then sufficient to smash an infantry invasion with shit for gunfire support. Really want to fight 100 Matildas and Valentines with 37mm PAK guns? I'll ignore the other 900 tanks the British had on hand at the start of the battle of Britain.

[phongn]

That's easy. Commandeer some KdF cruise liners for use as transports to move the troops Why the germans never looked into that, I'll never know...

You have to capture a port before you send in the cruise liners. They had to use the barges for that, and those barges are easy to destroy, like by having destroyers go past them at high speed.

[StarshipTitanic]

But all of this assuming the gErmans can actually make it across the channel.

That's easy. Commandeer some KdF cruise liners for use as transports to move the troops Why the germans never looked into that, I'll never know...

You mean HAPAG-Lloyd liners, which they did. The largest being the Bremen and Europa. After the war, the Europa was found sitting in its berth in Bremerhaven with holes cut inside of it for Operation Sealion. She had been laid up there since the outbreak of the war. The Bremen was destroyed, along with all of the Italian Line's ships of any significance. Due to the massive size of the vessels, it would be virtually impossible to unload them unless you wanted to ferry troops ashore with lifeboats and rafts or run the thing aground or something equally stupid.

BTW, she was given to the French and renamed the Liberte, the largest and fastest liner in the French Line's fleet and the third largest liner in the world, after the Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary.

[Straha]

Two important things here, firstly Hitler can't get rid of the Royal Navy, he has no ships, and no aquatic transports to boot. And in order to build the transports, assuming now the Royal Navy is magically wiped off the playing field, he would have to divert factories and men from the eastern front to this invasion, which he simply could not afford to do en masse. And the plan to use Rhine river barges would never have worked because, again assuming there are no ships in the royal navy that could make a wake, the barges go (I'm trying to remember this now, so I might not be exact) three knots, while the current in the channel is four knots. And the barges would not have been able to carry anything heavier then a light unloaded truck. Meaning supplies would have to be para-dropped which is anything less then accurate.

Straha buddy, Sealion happens before Germany Invades russia in this set of parameters. Even so, you and others bring up good points on the competancy and preparedness of the German Army and Navy.

Could those circumstances ever be rectified in the timeframe allowed or reasonably circumvented with resources at hand?

And you think Stalin wouldn't jump at the chance to take half of Gernany while they are focusing on this small little Island? In order for Hitler to pull this off he would need the resources to keep enough men on the Eastern Front to keep stalin off his back, and enough factoires on the Western Front pumping out enough ships to challenge the Royal Navy, it took America fou ryears to just get the Landing craft, do you think he could do it in less time, and challenge the Royal Navy? And the Americans who would enter the war no matter what, remember Roosevelt was depth charging at random in the Atlantic to try and get the germans on him, and get him into the war. And once he lands in Britain, assuming that we do it with a wave of the hand, how the hell does he supply them people? Can't para-drop sutff because of its innacuracy, and the RAF. He can't land it because of the Royal Navy, and the Brits would out number him ten to one, assuming some of the nasty defences they have on their shores don't get him first. Look Hitlers screwed everywhich way you look at it, and with the reward he would get from conquering them he would be better off conquering Switzerland, and don't get me started on that.

(Edit: Added a little at the end)

[TheDarkling]

And you think Stalin wouldn't jump at the chance to take half of Gernany while they are focusing on this small little Island? In order for Hitler to pull this off he would need the resources to keep enough men on the Eastern Front to keep stalin off his back, and enough factoires on the Western Front pumping out enough ships to challenge the Royal Navy and the Americans who would enter the war no matter what, remember Roosevelt was depth charging at random in the Atlantic to try and get the germans on him, and get him into the war. It just ain't going to happen my friend, EVER.

Lets not be hasty, if Hitler has his Nazi goons discover some mystical relic that allows his troops to walk on water then it could be done, of course that requires the Nazis to beat Dr Jones which in and of itself is no small feat.

[Straha]

And you think Stalin wouldn't jump at the chance to take half of Gernany while they are focusing on this small little Island? In order for Hitler to pull this off he would need the resources to keep enough men on the Eastern Front to keep stalin off his back, and enough factoires on the Western Front pumping out enough ships to challenge the Royal Navy and the Americans who would enter the war no matter what, remember Roosevelt was depth charging at random in the Atlantic to try and get the germans on him, and get him into the war. It just ain't going to happen my friend, EVER.

Lets not be hasty, if Hitler has his Nazi goons discover some mystical relic that allows his troops to walk on water then it could be done, of course that requires the Nazis to beat Dr Jones which in and of itself is no small feat.

He would still need a relic to allow tanks to walk on water, and a relic to keep the Russkis off his undefended back. And only Idi's whip could allow that, and they aren't going to take that off Dr. Jones, dead or alive.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Germany's best chance of ending the stuggle on the Western Front was lost at Dunkirk. If t he entire BEF was capture (or even a large chunck of it) it was likely that Churchill could have been unseated and replaced by a government that favored a peaceful resolution with the Germans. The two questions that this ultimatly comes down to are"Could the Germans cut off Dunkirk and keep the Brits from escaping" and "Would Chruchill have been kicked o ut had the BEF been captured"....

[SirNitram]

So let's see.

1) Sealion was a farce. The barges needed to capture any territory at all are going to be swamped on a normal day in the Channel, and even if they get a really calm one, any of the tanks on the mainland will have a field day chasing down infantry, as will the armoured emplacements, and, by circumstantial evidence, the stores of Mustard Gas.

2) The Battle Of Britain was a losing battle for the Germans. They couldn't effectively stop the RAF enough for Sealion to go forward. Even if they could stop the RAF from flying over the Continent, they wouldn't be able to stop them from shooting up every raft that floated their way.

3) The Bismark, the only ship that would be feasible for clearing the Channel, was victim of a fatal mob stabbing when the Fleet finally caught it with it's pants down.

4) Then there's always the stuff I heard about Hitler wanting England to join him, which would explain the sheer farce that was his war against them.

[Raptor 597]

Germany's best chance of ending the stuggle on the Western Front was lost at Dunkirk. If t he entire BEF was capture (or even a large chunck of it) it was likely that Churchill could have been unseated and replaced by a government that favored a peaceful resolution with the Germans. The two questions that this ultimatly comes down to are"Could the Germans cut off Dunkirk and keep the Brits from escaping" and "Would Chruchill have been kicked o ut had the BEF been captured"....

No, no, no. The question is: why is Hitler such a stupid twit that he relied on the Luftwaffe to destroy the BEF while his forces could of done it in a small amount of time an within small casualties. He had the BEF but it was hoped by used as a bargaining chip to coax the peace with Britain. This was obviously a stupendous mistake. But destroying it would have more chances for peace.

[Raptor 597]

3) The Bismark, the only ship that would be feasible for clearing the Channel, was victim of a fatal mob stabbing when the Fleet finally caught it with it's pants down.

But if they brought the Bismark out every ship from the four corners of the island would hve came to sank it. And with the RAF, RN, and the RNAF as I like to call it would have turned it into a mob stabbing of every degree more for the ship was in their home court and could be tracked rather than some distant scrambling to hunt it down near Greenland.

[Sea Skimmer]

3) The Bismark, the only ship that would be feasible for clearing the Channel, was victim of a fatal mob stabbing when the Fleet finally caught it with it's pants down.

By the time Bismarck is even completed, let alone worked up, the British would have fielded over 100 squadrons of Spitfires alone, not to mention several modern fully equipped armored divisions for a counter attack on the beach head. They'd also have the KVG's coming into service as well along with a flood of cruisers and destroyers.

At the start of the Battle of Britain the heaviest operational warships the KM could field was a single single pocket battleship followed by a couple Pre Dreadnought training ships that still had there main battery. Then they had the heavy cruiser Hipper. Then they had some very very shitty light cruisers and a few dzoen destroyers and torpedo boats. The other pocket battleship and the twins where all having major torpedo damage repaired and where not ready for months.

[phongn]

But if they brought the Bismark out every ship from the four corners of the island would hve came to sank it. And with the RAF, RN, and the RNAF as I like to call it would have turned it into a mob stabbing of every degree more for the ship was in their home court and could be tracked rather than some distant scrambling to hunt it down near Greenland.

It's FAA, not "RNAF"!

[Sea Skimmer]

The idea of Bismarck steaming into the straights of Dover in an attempt to gain control is really amusing me now...


"Achtung Achtung, British motor torpedo boats, destroyers, cruisers, mines, costal batteries, battleships and bombers spotted."

[Raptor 597]

The idea of Bismarck steaming into the straights of Dover in an attempt to gain control is really amusing me now...


"Achtung Achtung, British motor torpedo boats, destroyers, cruisers, mines, costal batteries, battleships and bombers spotted."

One does forget the old reservists in yachts tryinng to board, ram, and sink her with sawed off shotguns and cannons from the Battle of Warerloo.

[Thunderfire]

The germans nerver had the resources to invade britian.
The battle of britain was a waste of resources for germany.
Kicking the british out of the med would be a better idea
after the fall of france. They also need some better long
range fighters. Fw187 and He219 instead of Bf110 would
have been a nasty suprise for the allies.

[Frank Hipper]

U.S. planning took the fall of Britain into account. Somewhat.

Anybody remember what the B-36 was designed for?