Iowa class battleship vs the German Bismarck

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-05 02:29am

There is an Iowa class battleship 100 km from the Bismarck. Their captains are aware of the others presence but do not know exactly where the other ship is. Both ships are in full combat capacity and are crewed by the finest personnel in their respective navies. Who wins this engagement ?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-05 02:31am

The Iowa wins. It is far more modern, and IIRC generally larger and better armed than the Bismark.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-05 03:45am

Iowa advantages:

Speed.
Firepower.
Protection.
Electronics.

Bismarck advantages:

None, except possbly watertight compartment subdivision. And that would merely keep the battered wreck afloat.

Iowa wins, and quickly.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-06-05 04:23am

Bismark = Cooler name = Wins

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-05 04:30am

Faram wrote:Bismark = Cooler name = Wins

If it was a battle of names, yes.
Unfortunately, it is not.

A fairer German BB vs American would be S.M.S. Baden vs U.S.S. Texas, circa 1918.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-06-05 05:32am

The Iowa would win but it would not be a cakewalk.

Both ships used High velocity guns

The Iowa was designed to kill Japanese Yamato-class Battleships which carried 19 in guns.

The Bismark has better armor that the Iowa at a cost to speed.

Iowa 16 in
Bismark 15 in

In the end the Iowa would win but it would be battered. The deciding factor would be who fires first.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-06-05 05:46am

Faram wrote:Bismark = Cooler name = Wins

I'm not so sure.

The primary thing modern Germans would associate with the name Bismarck would be a particular preparation of herring favored by Bismarck himself, the Bismarck herring, and that's not a cool association.

The Bismarck as a ship doesn't seem to have that big a hold on the German popular imagination, what with the fact that the ship managed primarily to beat the stuffing out of a few warships smaller and older than itself and got a lucky shot on the Hood (and thus finally sunk the battle cruiser as a viable concept).

Now the Iowa. A warship has to be really tough to successfully carry off a name like that. It's just like the old Johnny Cash song, "A Boy Named Sue." I can just see the Iowa's radio operator screaming into his microphone: "My Name is Iowa! How Do You Do!" Right before the 16-inch guns erase a suitable target.

Seriously, though, the Iowa very literally had the Bismarck beat in every possible department. Even if it had not had that, the mere presence of radar on the Iowa would have routinely allowed the Iowa, with its speed advantage, to battle the Bismarck on terms of the Iowa's choosing.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-05 06:12am

Isolder74 wrote:
The Iowa was designed to kill Japanese Yamato-class Battleships which carried 19 in guns.

The Yamato carried 18-inch guns.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-05 06:38am

Isolder74 wrote:The Iowa would win but it would not be a cakewalk.

Both ships used High velocity guns

True. But the weight of shell is the critical factor. Iowa>Bismark

The Iowa was designed to kill Japanese Yamato-class Battleships which carried 19 in guns.

Untrue. The Iowas were designed to be high-speed escorts to carrier forces, the only ships the U.S. contemplated to counter the Yamatos with were the aborted Montana class. Even then, countering the Yamatos was difficult, seeing as how no details were available about them until post-war.

The Bismark has better armor that the Iowa at a cost to speed.

Untrue. Belt thickness of the two were roughly equal, but the Iowas employed an interior inclined belt, where the Bismarcks carried an external vertical one.
Turret armor was thicker on the Iowas.
Barbette armor was *much* thicker on the Iowas.
Deck armor was thicker on the Iowas.
The American speed advantage comes from much higher power, not lighter construction.

Iowa 16 in
Bismark 15 in

In the end the Iowa would win but it would be battered. The deciding factor would be who fires first.

Iowa had a greater range than Bismarck, and a heavier broadside. Bismarck would need incredible luck, and an incompetent crew on board Iowa to merely survive this, much less win.

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2003-06-05 06:45am

Bismarck is a very overrated ship, The Iowa class was arguably the best ever built.

Rader, better guns, better armour, better training and more speed put the odds severely on the side of the US.

Frank Hipper wrote: True. But the weight of shell is the critical factor. Iowa>Bismark

Especially with super-heavy shells, which the Germans didn't have.

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2003-06-05 06:50am

Maybe it's just me... but shouldn't this be in Off-topic instead??? I really don't see how this particular vs deals with Sci-fi.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-05 07:01am

Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote:Maybe it's just me... but shouldn't this be in Off-topic instead??? I really don't see how this particular vs deals with Sci-fi.

Right you are. Where's a friendly neighborhood moderator when you need one?

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2003-06-05 07:07am

Frank Hipper wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:The Iowa was designed to kill Japanese Yamato-class Battleships which carried 19 in guns.
Untrue. The Iowas were designed to be high-speed escorts to carrier forces, the only ships the U.S. contemplated to counter the Yamatos with were the aborted Montana class. Even then, countering the Yamatos was difficult, seeing as how no details were available about them until post-war.

I've never heard of the Montana class until recently. Where can I get some information on the ship's specs?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-05 07:13am

Arrow Mk84 wrote:I've never heard of the Montana class until recently. Where can I get some information on the ship's specs?

They were basically enlarged, slower Iowas.

Here's a good link.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-05 07:59am

Thread moved.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-06-05 08:18am

Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote:Maybe it's just me... but shouldn't this be in Off-topic instead??? I really don't see how this particular vs deals with Sci-fi.

Well, let's see. The SF military force that converted the Yamato into a spacegoing battleship decide that it would be a good idea for them to forego the later purpose-built space battleships.

So...they decide to bring the Bismarck (sunk in WW2) and the Iowa (sunk in WW6...) into the fold.

Assuming that the Bismarck and the Iowa, appropriately reconditioned, retain their relative strengths and weaknesses when compared to each other, how do they stack up against each other?

Or, in an alternate universe setting, what would have happened if the Kriegsmarine had seen its big name battleship survive until late in the war? Add to that the use of the Iowa class by the US Navy. Then add atmospheric goofiness that makes long range, high altitude flying impossible, and instead of bombers dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, capital ship guns fired volleys of nuclear shells to bring down the last coastal strongholds of the Empire of Japan. Then the Long Tom cannon deployed to pound the inland cities and troop formations into radioactive dust.

Shortly before that, in that alternate universe or alternate history, the Normandy landing was repulsed by long range guns along the French coast turning the English channel coast and the invasion fleet into smoking ruins.

So now the Iowa and her sister ships, fresh from victory over Japan, are cruising the Atlantic, trying to bring the German navy to heel. Both sides naturally resort to lobbing low-yield nuclear shells at each other at extreme range.

That's kind of science-fictiony.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-06-05 08:18am

IIRC the Iowa class had an electronic fire control system that was far superior to anything the Axis powers fielded in any of their BB's. so not only was it a more powerful broadside, but also a much more accurate one.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-05 08:32am

Isolder74 wrote:
The Iowa was designed to kill Japanese Yamato-class Battleships which carried 19 in guns.

No it wasn’t. The US knew NOTHING of the Yamato class when the Iowa’s where laid down, and thought they where 45,000 ton vessels with 16 inch guns though about 1944. Only near the end of the war was it suggested they might be 60,000 tons armed with 17.7 inch guns.

The Bismark has better armor that the Iowa at a cost to speed.

Iowa has a better belt, deck, turret face plates, CT armoring and a few other things. Bismarcks only armor adavntage was its fore and aft and upper belt, but those would only stop low caliber fire and where really an obsolete waste of weight. That can be said about most aspects of the Bismarck.

Iowa 16 in
Bismark 15 in

WTF are you comparing?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-05 08:37am

Col. Crackpot wrote:IIRC the Iowa class had an electronic fire control system that was far superior to anything the Axis powers fielded in any of their BB's. so not only was it a more powerful broadside, but also a much more accurate one.

The best German radar could provide range only against battleship sized targets out to 27,000 yards. Though Bismarck was sunk several years before it entered service. The radar the Iowa carried during the war could provide blind fire control out to around 40,000 yards while the ship was maneuvering. It could accurately hit targets it couldn’t even see visually. Bismarck on the other hand must see the target it spot shell splashes and cannot fire accurately while turning, It also has poor remote power control. The advantage to Iowa is immense to say the least.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-05 08:38am

Frank Hipper wrote:Iowa advantages....Iowa wins, and quickly.

Indeed

Vympel wrote:
The Yamato carried 18-inch guns.

18.1 inch!

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-05 08:52am

Sea Skimmer wrote:The best German radar could provide range only against battleship sized targets out to 27,000 yards.

Considering that Bismarck's guns had a range of 39,600 yards(approx.) at maximum elevation, that's some suck-ass gunnery radar.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-06-05 08:55am

Frank Hipper wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:The best German radar could provide range only against battleship sized targets out to 27,000 yards.
Considering that Bismarck's guns had a range of 39,600 yards(approx.) at maximum elevation, that's some suck-ass gunnery radar.

Yup...The germans were never really good at long-range radar tech.

Edit: Had to vote for Iowa...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-05 09:01am

Frank Hipper wrote:Considering that Bismarck's guns had a range of 39,600 yards(approx.) at maximum elevation, that's some suck-ass gunnery radar.

Indeed it was, and it only came into service in 1944, and as I said its range only, there is no bearing data at all. The radar Bismarck had in 1941 was effectively search only and gave little useful range data, at least for fire control perposes.

Meanwhile, Iowa’s radar was so accurate it could pick up the shell splashes from misses and those could be used to correct fire. Using radar data the fire control computers which where effectively the best in the world could maintain a target lock even while the vessel was turning in a circle at flank speed or making back to back 160 degree turns. All of this was demonstrated by the North Carolina at 27 knots

Bismarck needs to go in a straight line to accomplish anything. Her target had better do so as well....

Boba Fett wrote:
Yup...The germans were never really good at long-range radar tech.

I have to add this.

Stuart Slade wrote:When the Germans decided to introduce short wavelength radars, they selected a frequency of 1.5 cms. This became known as K-band (K = Kurtz, the German word for short).
Unfortunately, the Germans, with unparalleled Teutonic precision, had selected the one radar frequency that is absorbed by water vapor so the K-band radars don't work in rain or fog. Postwar this was countered by selecting frequencies either just over K band (Ka or K-above) or just under it (Ku or K-under).

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-06-05 09:27am

umm... great leader the North Carolina is not an Iowa class boat. She is a North Carolina class.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-05 09:42am

Col. Crackpot wrote:umm... great leader the North Carolina is not an Iowa class boat. She is a North Carolina class.

Duh. However she carried the exact radar and fire control equipment as the Iowa class.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Iowa class battleship vs the German Bismarck

Who wins ?

Iowa class battleship vs the German Bismarck