A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-06-05 02:12am

The final question being, of course, that does the method in which the DBZ people destroy their opponents matter when their opponent is lying dead on the ground?

Oh, and a few comments I thought of while waiting for Gentoo to install.

1) There IS a Hand of God above Earth (that's what Kami does) which can explain why the Earth was not harmed.
2) Chi is mystical in origin, so the lack of widespread damage could be, quite literally, magic. This is furthur supported by Ma-jin Buu (Ma being the Kanji for Magic, and jin being the suffix for race or people) being able to use the conventional attacks quite well, while being clearly magical in nature.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-06-05 10:21am

consequences wrote:Let's go down a quick list of DET related impossibilities.
1: Fighters can in no way generate that much energy from their own bodies.

...And? The Death Stars have the same problem. Does that mean that all of a sudden, Superlasers don't work n DET?

2: No Recoil

Answered this I don't know how many pages back. Twice, in fact. Pick your favorite.

3: Lack of phenomena associated with high energy events

*coughVegetacoughEarth* Already answered this one too.

4: Lack of residual heat from attack passing by, or impacting flash-frying all normal humans in area

Wrong as fuck.

#1: The blasts have no heat, only light.

#2: The few times normal people have been at the site of a serious DBZ fight, they were either killed deliberately(the city where Androids #19 and #20), or just happened to be blown a safer distance away early in the fight(The Cell Game, final battle against Buu).

5: Lack of moon falling on/blasting into/ turning to energy and frying the earth

#1: Protection from Kami

#2: Blast directed away from Earth

#3: Toryama-san wasn't paying close attention to the laws of physics.

]6: Completely inconsistent expectations of damage to target from observed effects on surroundings

Ki Blasts, like Turbolasers, don't have a uniform power level. Not every shot they fire is going to be a planet-killer.

List of chain reaction problems:
1: Basic mechanism unknown, kind of like that in ST phasers

2: Singular massive explosion at moment of contact noted in all but one example of Celestrial Destruction.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 10:57am

Death Stars have a mechanism to explain the fuel supply, z fighters don't.

If they can casually withstand that much recoil, then there is no conceivable way for a few hundred gravities to have any noticeable effect. And yet 100 gravities kicked Goku's ass when he had at least ten-twenty times the power of Piccolo when he took out the moon. Oh, and any mechanism to dissipate that much recoil should put an equivalent amount of energy in a manner to destroy the Earth anyway "Backblast area clear... oops."

Hold on this one while I consult my notes.

Anything which generates light generates heat. And if they are using DET in the quantities you are saying, there is nowhere on the planet that would be a safe distance away from the fight. Can anyone give me a figure on the residual energy that would have been dumped into the atmosphere as a result of Uber-gohan and Uber-cell's beams clashing?

Historically, Kami has protected jack shit, with the apparently unnoticeable uber-powers you are granting him for no readily discernible reason, he could have easily swatted Freeza's ship into the sun while it was on approach to Earth. Every other supposed god in DBZ has been a horrible dissapointment when it really mattered, and you think the least powerful of them has abilities never seen used by anyone else?

Blast directed away from Earth, hmm, I could almost buy that, if the blast was as large as the moon, and was seen sweeping it away. Instead, we have a soccer ball sized blast, that hits the moon and causes it to explode.

And if Toriyama wasn't paying close attention to the laws of physics, then it falls upon us to come up with a reasonable explanation, not to shove our heads up his ass in blind worship of his mediocre writing talents.

Okay, we have had them launch attacks which impacted, which they believed would destroy the target, which had less effect on the surroundings than a baby nuke.

Singular massive explosion has had none of the associated phenomena of DET in every single case.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-05 11:19am

...
I would just like to say that since this chain reaction mechanism is completely unknown, there is nothing that says it must not work on energy fields. For all we know, the chain reaction could cause as much damage on a shield as on a planet.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-05 11:21am

Can somebody tell me whether the explosion of the moon was ever observed from any perspective away from the surface of the earth?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 11:22am

We do know that it is possible to shield against it, but we have only seen it done by individuals with equivalent abilities, you have a point.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-05 11:36am

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-05 11:36am

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-05 11:40am

Damn the double post demon

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 11:51am

Hey, I am nothing if not reasonable, but blanket assumptions kind of piss me off. As does the fact that Toriyama apparantly thinks that idiots should be the most powerful force in the universe.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-05 11:57am

Well, the superheroes in a show for children should act like children

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 01:00pm

I don't know about you, but as a child, I could have made much better use of the Dragonballs than they did. Wasted potential pisses me off too.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-06-05 04:30pm

consequences wrote:Death Stars have a mechanism to explain the fuel supply, z fighters don't.

So explain the vast difference between "Hypermatter" and "Ki" Please.

If they can casually withstand that much recoil, then there is no conceivable way for a few hundred gravities to have any noticeable effect. And yet 100 gravities kicked Goku's ass when he had at least ten-twenty times the power of Piccolo when he took out the moon. Oh, and any mechanism to dissipate that much recoil should put an equivalent amount of energy in a manner to destroy the Earth anyway "Backblast area clear... oops."

Dude, we already went through this.

The vast majorty of Ki blasts are explosive. Imagine firing a 17kT nuclear shell out of a 16" cannon. Does the cannon have to be braced for 17kT of recoil? No.

In fact, the vast majority of evidence suppourts that. Most energy blasts are deflected away by either other attacks, or by physically holding or striking the energy ball. This is exemplified during Goku's battle against Freeza, in which Freeza fires a massive energy blast at Goku, who catches it, holds it for several seconds, then punches it away. The ball flies off, and destroys a nearby planet. And when I say destroyed, I mean the planet is seen to explode, and yes, the blast engulfs the area once held by the planet.

Anything which generates light generates heat. And if they are using DET in the quantities you are saying, there is nowhere on the planet that would be a safe distance away from the fight. Can anyone give me a figure on the residual energy that would have been dumped into the atmosphere as a result of Uber-gohan and Uber-cell's beams clashing?

Like I said before, these aren't simple directed energy beams. They can be directed in mid-flight, caught, and even knocked back by another Ki-user before delivering their payload. They're often more like missiles than lasers.

Blast directed away from Earth, hmm, I could almost buy that, if the blast was as large as the moon, and was seen sweeping it away. Instead, we have a soccer ball sized blast, that hits the moon and causes it to explode.

I mean the force of the moon-shattering exposion.

And if Toriyama wasn't paying close attention to the laws of physics, then it falls upon us to come up with a reasonable explanation, not to shove our heads up his ass in blind worship of his mediocre writing talents.

Okay, we have had them launch attacks which impacted, which they believed would destroy the target, which had less effect on the surroundings than a baby nuke.

Care to give an example?

Let's start with the only example I know of, Freeza's Death Ball attack on Trunks. You know, the one that Trunks himself contained?

All other examples were either fired, or deflected, away from the planet.

Singular massive explosion has had none of the associated phenomena of DET in every single case.

Except for the destructions of Arlia, Vegita, and Earth, you mean.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 04:57pm

Let's see, Majin Buu launches the upgraded Super Kamikaze Ghost attack, they launch enegy beams, six of them converge on Vegitto, and detonate. Majin Buu acts like he expects this to kill them, but it did rather less damage than any nuke I've ever heard of.

And you are now claiming they can control the results of two opposed energy beams clashing? Despite the fact that it had an effect on the surroundings, and a millionth of the energy that should have been radiated would completely sterilise the planet.

And the vast difference between Hyper matter and Chi is that we don't see the Z fighters carrying around massive gravity suppressors to prevent them from destroying everything around them just from the gravitational attraction.

and of course, my roommate is hijacking the computer before I can type anything else. later.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-06-05 06:17pm

Viz Dragon Ball Manga. Volume 1.

Goku throws a Kamehameha at Radditz. Blast is rated as above 900 (what it was exactly, we cannot say, as it was reading 924 and climbing shortly before it was fired). Radditz catches it at chest level. The resulting explosions extends to at least twice Radditz's height, but only digs a crater a few inches into the ground.

Soon after, Piccolo lets loose with his Makkankosappo, rated at around 1100. It missed Radditz, but we notice that in the background, a mountain has around a sixth of its mass missing via a large hole blown in it.

Either 1: Scouter PL levels are on some freaky exponential scale in which the diffrence between 900+ and 1100 is a six inch deep crater in the ground and a chunk blown off a mountain

or 2: DBZers can adject the area of effect of their blasts. Note, it is a known fact that many of their attacks can change direction after they've been fired.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 06:37pm

And Gohan controlled the effect of Cell's beam how? Since I know sure as hell he didn't give a shit about anyone on the planet, and wouldn't have wasted the enrgy and attention necessary to fine-tune his attack.

In any case this matters not at all for the Majin Buu example, as soon as the blast explodes, the energy gets released.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-06-05 09:14pm

ref: Raditz battle, Makanosappo(Special Beam Cannon)

KK · Post by KK » 2003-06-06 01:05am

Toriyama has stated flat out that he knows less than nothing about physics.

Trying to apply physics to Dragonball in order to debunk what was shown is about as useless as trying to explain why the Road Runner can run through a tunnel that Wile E. just painted.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-06 01:18am

Well golly gee, Guess ah'll just accept what ah know is false, hyuck.

Fuck that. If he doesn't know what the hell he's doing, we have two viable options(but only if we adhere to the charter of this board)
1: Say "Fuckit, no useful information there, and no consistency whatsoever, can't use this universe in debating."

2: Attempt to rationalise what we see.

Since Z-fans seem manifestly unwilling to go with option 1, I go with option 2. Meanwhile, every Z-fan in existence starts pulling out the most ridiculous high-end figures he can beg/borrow/steal/pull out of his ass. Here's a hint: If you are truly certain that the numbers are on your side, you can use lower end estimates without fear of losing. Why? Because if the numbers and facts are on your side, then they will win through. Instead I get "10000 moon destroying punches in the first picosecond" and "25% lightspeed Raditz, which must mean 30000x lightspeed Frieza". And the all-time favorite: 'The supposed gods turn out to be pussies in a real fight, does this mean they are relatively weak, hell, no, it means that Goku is more powerful than omnipotent'.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-06 01:50am

SAMAS wrote: Dude, we already went through this.

The vast majorty of Ki blasts are explosive. Imagine firing a 17kT nuclear shell out of a 16" cannon. Does the cannon have to be braced for 17kT of recoil? No.

In fact, the vast majority of evidence suppourts that. Most energy blasts are deflected away by either other attacks, or by physically holding or striking the energy ball. This is exemplified during Goku's battle against Freeza, in which Freeza fires a massive energy blast at Goku, who catches it, holds it for several seconds, then punches it away. The ball flies off, and destroys a nearby planet. And when I say destroyed, I mean the planet is seen to explode, and yes, the blast engulfs the area once held by the planet.

The problem with that is that the energies they throw around is so vast that you can't get around huge recoil whatever the delivery mechanism. Let's say the energy is delivered in the form of a mass of anti-matter with a containment mechanism--Piccolo still needs to throw out such a big chunk of anti-matter that at the velocity shown in the show there would have been huge recoil.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-06 01:54am

Since once again, energy has mass. Think them throwing the Death Star around. Thanks Jodoforce! I couldn't find the words to properly phrase that.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-06 02:00am

Although exactly how much mass and how much recoil, I have no idea

For all I know it could still be within 100G

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-06-06 03:05am

consequences wrote:Well golly gee, Guess ah'll just accept what ah know is false, hyuck.

Fuck that. If he doesn't know what the hell he's doing, we have two viable options(but only if we adhere to the charter of this board)
1: Say "Fuckit, no useful information there, and no consistency whatsoever, can't use this universe in debating."

2: Attempt to rationalise what we see.

Well that's just fine and dandy. So the Z-fighters obviously cannot be that powerful since that would violate the laws of physics. On a side note, SW cannot possbly have hyperdrive, as thet violates the laws of physics. Ranma also does not turn into a girl when splashed with cold water because that certainly shits all over physics. Don't get me started about precognition and ressurections . . .

Ever heard of "suspension of disbeleif?" How about "black/white fallacy" or "Occam's Razor?"

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-06-06 08:33am

JodoForce wrote:
SAMAS wrote: Dude, we already went through this.

The vast majorty of Ki blasts are explosive. Imagine firing a 17kT nuclear shell out of a 16" cannon. Does the cannon have to be braced for 17kT of recoil? No.

In fact, the vast majority of evidence suppourts that. Most energy blasts are deflected away by either other attacks, or by physically holding or striking the energy ball. This is exemplified during Goku's battle against Freeza, in which Freeza fires a massive energy blast at Goku, who catches it, holds it for several seconds, then punches it away. The ball flies off, and destroys a nearby planet. And when I say destroyed, I mean the planet is seen to explode, and yes, the blast engulfs the area once held by the planet.
The problem with that is that the energies they throw around is so vast that you can't get around huge recoil whatever the delivery mechanism. Let's say the energy is delivered in the form of a mass of anti-matter with a containment mechanism--Piccolo still needs to throw out such a big chunk of anti-matter that at the velocity shown in the show there would have been huge recoil.

And the bigger plasts typically have huge mass. But you'll notice that usually only the target catching the blast feels it. A somewhat common occurance is where the attacker easily fires a blast with one or two hands, but when the defender catches it, or is hit by it, they get pushed back several meters, or smashed into(or through) a mountain, even though they may come up unhurt.

Now go and check back on my second post on page three of this thread, where I note about fighters presumably using their Ki to ignore recoil, even from physical strikes.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-06 11:02am

seen that explanation SAMAS, the problem is that the recoil has to be dissipated somewhere, and when you are talking that much force, it screws up whatever its put into.

Although now that I think about it, it could kind of fit into my theory.

Quick and dirty version: The Z fighters open up some sort of portal to an energy dimension to cause their effects. To open it up more than the fighter can continually handle, it strains whatever muscle/willpower is responsible for using this effect. This explains why Senzu beans and Dende/Kibbit are able to recharge a fighter, they aren't refilling them with energy, just relaxing a cramped muscle. Whatever recoil they can't handle gets channeled into a similar portal, likewise with some attacks that are thrown at them. On a larger scale, this effect could explain the lack of consequences from the moon detonation. These portals are what Z-fighters and scouters detect, not the actual energy, explaining why they couldn't detect Androids nuking large cities. Hell this theory could even allow for DET instead of a chain reaction now that I reconsider it, but I was arguing against stupidity mainly in the first place.

And Yogi, just because you can't explain it doesn't mean you automatically assign uber-wank characteristics to it, and fight to the death against all contradicting evidence. Ever hear of "Intellectual Honesty"?