Dishonest Trektard Tactic: Changing the Rules Midstream

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Actually, 3 GCS to take on one ISD is probably a losing game in terms of manpower and mass. Sure, the Empire has more capacity, but that doesn't make it a tactically favorable loss ratio, just a strategically acceptable loss ratio.

What did the numbers look like back then?I must have missed that era.

[His Divine Shadow]

And WTF did your statement have to do with E1701 even? He was merely stating how things were different prior to ICS and I happen to agree with his opinion.

His statement is wrong, there was no parity, even though some people liked to imagine really really hard that it was indeed so, that was just a pipe dream.

[His Divine Shadow]

Not a single person said their estimates were ever conservative and they went so far as to call anything above 2 GT as ultra high end.

Thats a load of shit, I constantly used a 10GT figure which was not very high in my opinion, I still remember DasBastards calcs which gave HTL yields in the range of 50GT or so, Evil S'tan also did some, pre ICS.

As SPOOFE said we only used 2GT because it was sufficiently low not to cause a massive bitch fest.

And Pre-ICS we still had these quotes:

Pg. 367: The next few days were bedlam, exactly as Whett had expected. The navy appeared at the fringes of the system, close enough to be fully detectable by the Renatasian defense sensors. They even let the local military lob a few primitive thermonuclear weapons at them to demonstrate the utter futility of resistance. The fleet's shields glowed briefly, restoring energy consumed by the Voyage out, and that was that. Almost.

Unfortunately for the Navy and high-technology aggressors everywhere in space and time, invasions cannot be conducted with continent destroying weapons or from behind shields. Not unless you're willing to oblieterate the enemy, and not at all if you're interested in taking what the enemy has: raw materials, agricultural products, certain manufactured goods, and the potential labor of her citizens.
(ref: Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka)

As usual they where buried under the collected weight of a 20+ page thread about darksaber and how the asteroids in TESB where pulverized and how Needa was running around scared shitless of the asteroids and similar shit.

[His Divine Shadow]

Shit, I remember when 17-22 GT was considered absurd.

Maybe to you it was, I have noticed that people seems to sugar coat their memories of the "good old days"

[PainRack]

Shit, I remember when 17-22 GT was considered absurd.

Maybe to you it was, I have noticed that people seems to sugar coat their memories of the "good old days"

Hey,but the good old days at least had some decent debates.Just look at Nordom?Mad,me and even Iceberg has been beating him in the Deathstar half of Imperial Starfleet for nearly a month now and he's still at it.

We covered the entire scope of the argument and he's still hasn't given up.Hell,his only point is to say both Han and Dodonna are correct.And even this has been shown to be a fudge through solely canon interpretations,much less bringing out BTM.

[TurboPhaser]

Can someone explain? All this shorthand (ICS, SB etc) has me totally lost.

I'm out of this inner Trek vs Wars loop, so I have no idea whats goin on.

[Ghost Rider]

Can someone explain? All this shorthand (ICS, SB etc) has me totally lost.

I'm out of this inner Trek vs Wars loop, so I have no idea whats goin on.

ICS= Incredible Cross Sections. Which now consider canon(not quite movie level but the material is in direct relation to the movie.) SW insider #68 has more information.

SB= Spacebattles...another forum where SW vs ST is discussed.

Anything else?

[Soulman]

Even before ICS the Empire would annihilate an FKR alliance. However even HDS thought 12 GCS would have even odds against an ISD, debates about tactical situations were still possible. If there wasn't any possible circumstances where a debate was possible a large vs. community wouldn't have existed.

[The Dude]

Asside for the minor fact that only ONE person ever defended the 17-22 GT figure at SB prior to ICS and the most rabid warsie ever to show up called that range absurd. I am including every single ASVS member who even showed up a half dozen times in this. Not a single person said their estimates were ever conservative and they went so far as to call anything above 2 GT as ultra high end.

Ahem:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post570746

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post574819

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post605761

I even reminded you of all this here:
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post726343

[Alyeska]

Asside for the minor fact that only ONE person ever defended the 17-22 GT figure at SB prior to ICS and the most rabid warsie ever to show up called that range absurd. I am including every single ASVS member who even showed up a half dozen times in this. Not a single person said their estimates were ever conservative and they went so far as to call anything above 2 GT as ultra high end.

Ahem:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post570746

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post574819

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post605761

I even reminded you of all this here:
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post726343

So change ONE to TWO. Doesn't change my statement very much.

[Alyeska]

Even before ICS the Empire would annihilate an FKR alliance.

Since March of 2000 I have never denied this.

However even HDS thought 12 GCS would have even odds against an ISD, debates about tactical situations were still possible. If there wasn't any possible circumstances where a debate was possible a large vs. community wouldn't have existed.

Quite so. ICS ended the debate and thus killed the future of the VS community. Truth be told I never realy wanted Trek to win because I enjoyed the debates to much. I didn't want either side to win.

[His Divine Shadow]

Even before ICS the Empire would annihilate an FKR alliance. However even HDS thought 12 GCS would have even odds against an ISD, debates about tactical situations were still possible. If there wasn't any possible circumstances where a debate was possible a large vs. community wouldn't have existed.

My opinions changed, I mostly based them on what I thought be a good enough differential at the time, no empirical facts, which I started gathering around the pre-ICS era which indeed upped that figure in my mind.

[Ender]

Not a single person said their estimates were ever conservative and they went so far as to call anything above 2 GT as ultra high end.

Thats a load of shit, I constantly used a 10GT figure which was not very high in my opinion, I still remember DasBastards calcs which gave HTL yields in the range of 50GT or so, Evil S'tan also did some, pre ICS.

Can you send me a copy of S'tans? I got the DaBastard ones already. (I'm having trouble figuring out how he got his overpressure value, anyone know how to contact him?) and when I redid most of his stuff, I managed to get 47.11 GT per shot.

[Ender]

Quite so. ICS ended the debate and thus killed the future of the VS community. Truth be told I never realy wanted Trek to win because I enjoyed the debates to much. I didn't want either side to win.

I gotta agree, it really did kill it. Of course, it had been dying for a while, getting to where people always argued the same issues again and again, but after ICS most of it was settled. The Big three were all int their place except for the occasional troll like Adarx or Wingzero. And not everyone knew enough about other universes to continue overall debating on the former scale.

[His Divine Shadow]

Not a single person said their estimates were ever conservative and they went so far as to call anything above 2 GT as ultra high end.

Thats a load of shit, I constantly used a 10GT figure which was not very high in my opinion, I still remember DasBastards calcs which gave HTL yields in the range of 50GT or so, Evil S'tan also did some, pre ICS.

Can you send me a copy of S'tans? I got the DaBastard ones already. (I'm having trouble figuring out how he got his overpressure value, anyone know how to contact him?) and when I redid most of his stuff, I managed to get 47.11 GT per shot.

I don't know where to find it, but S'tan is here, you can PM him

[Alyeska]

Quite so. ICS ended the debate and thus killed the future of the VS community. Truth be told I never realy wanted Trek to win because I enjoyed the debates to much. I didn't want either side to win.

I gotta agree, it really did kill it. Of course, it had been dying for a while, getting to where people always argued the same issues again and again, but after ICS most of it was settled. The Big three were all int their place except for the occasional troll like Adarx or Wingzero. And not everyone knew enough about other universes to continue overall debating on the former scale.

Well I have to admit it is fun to put trolls like Wingzero, Galaxy/Sovereign, and Adarx in their place. Having concrete figures does allow for that.

[The Dude]

Can you send me a copy of S'tans? I got the DaBastard ones already. (I'm having trouble figuring out how he got his overpressure value, anyone know how to contact him?) and when I redid most of his stuff, I managed to get 47.11 GT per shot.

I don't remember making any of my ultimate conclusions based on overpressure figures (the "smoking rubble" scenario was just one of four I used) - my summary was posted here:

Dress your fucking links, goddamn it

PS If you are asking how I arrived at a damage-radius coefficient of 0.14 for 50psi - I simply plotted the coefficient values from Effects of Nuclear Weapons versus overpressure and extrapolated to 50 psi.

[Ender]

PS If you are asking how I arrived at a damage-radius coefficient of 0.14 for 50psi - I simply plotted the coefficient values from Effects of Nuclear Weapons versus overpressure and extrapolated to 50 psi.

Man I am an idiot. That was what I was talking about. But I just rechecked what I had originally copied down and I had entered the formula wrong. So it does match upp.

Thank you for the clarification thread

[Lord Poe]

Alyeska, can the "anonymous Warsie" bullshit already. For YEARS, the Wars sides numbers were dismissed by the SB VSers as bullshit, even though MOST OF US always gave numbers as a lower estimate. Go check my website on one of those "wayback machine" sites and see. Check Saxton's, too. His website has been up since '95, and mine has been up since '96.

And SINCE the ICS came out, the numbers were threw about were JUSTIFIED, so no, the ICS didn't change much of anything.

[seanrobertson]

A slew of (Some ST) Vs (Some SW) No ICS/TM threads have sprung up.

Warsies charge in and complain that the ICS is valid as a debate source (which is true but not really relevant to the thread), the Trekies (at least the low brow trollish ones) run around in circles screaming about Treks Uber TT level weapons (in which case why even discount the ICS???, it would be their friend) and then Warsies respond that 500 Imp ships have the power of the DS1.

General idiocy basically.

Amen to that.

I just browsed Spacebattles' most current threads, and I didn't know whether to laugh or go puke. That shit was depressing.

It's the same old stuff, too: morons who ignore the ICS, usually based in some ad hominemizing against Curtis, or the type that believe this super TOS bullshit. (The real trouble is, I can never tell if that latter bunch really believe what they are saying. Their arguments oftentimes come across as tongue-in-cheek...but that could be simply because their thinking is so laughable .)

WRT the _ICS_, what never ceases to amaze me is the fact that people believe it represents the ultimate in Wars technology. They insist that you must stick to onscreen sources. Are they insane? That's a FIELD DAY for a guy like me. Any intelligent person would understand my two-word rebuttal: Death Star. As Michael has said about a million times, anyone who thinks a civilization that could build a planet-shattering battlestation could not also create small cruisers and destroyers of BDZ-level power is a RETARD.

Well, that's a paraphrase, but that's the rough idea eh?

[Connor MacLeod]

Can you send me a copy of S'tans? I got the DaBastard ones already. (I'm having trouble figuring out how he got his overpressure value, anyone know how to contact him?) and when I redid most of his stuff, I managed to get 47.11 GT per shot.

I don't remember making any of my ultimate conclusions based on overpressure figures (the "smoking rubble" scenario was just one of four I used) - my summary was posted here:

Dress your fucking links, goddamn it

PS If you are asking how I arrived at a damage-radius coefficient of 0.14 for 50psi - I simply plotted the coefficient values from Effects of Nuclear Weapons versus overpressure and extrapolated to 50 psi.

You're DasBastard?

[His Divine Shadow]

Duuude!

[Striderteen]

Trek was outgunned by a wide margin even using the most conservative pre-ICS calculations; all ICS really does is nail shut Starfleet's coffin by conclusively placing the firepower levels of Star Wars capship weaponry in the high end of the range established by those calculations.

[justifier]

Before the ICS debates were almost never about tactical skills, they were about waries throwing down numbers, usually very conservative. Then people would dispute those numbers calling it wanking and such. So the debates were always just about numbers, once the ICs came out we had solid undisputable numbers that proved what warsies had been saying for years, but some people just refuse to accept facts.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

But only if you use numbers of relatively little controversy. For instance, 2GT or so for Wars HTL and asteroid calc yields for LTLs, plus 64MT for photorps generally will not be contested so heavily you can't talk tactics.