Robert Brown's site

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-05-30 05:07pm

Sorry, I should just say "fans" as the term "fanboy" implies someone obsesses to the point where they feel their franchise has no flaws (hence it would applies to fans who consider the EU and everything with the name on it to be great).

The canon purists at least are holding to the stuff GL himself created, not some spinoff stuff that was liscensed for a few extra bucks. Whereas some (not all) of the EU fans hate GL for changing "their" history.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-30 05:16pm

Kurgan wrote:Sorry, I should just say "fans" as the term "fanboy" implies someone obsesses to the point where they feel their franchise has no flaws (hence it would applies to fans who consider the EU and everything with the name on it to be great).

The canon purists at least are holding to the stuff GL himself created, not some spinoff stuff that was liscensed for a few extra bucks. Whereas some (not all) of the EU fans hate GL for changing "their" history.

Bullshit. Have you read his site? He is definitely not a canon purist. He's an original trilogy (really just ESB and ANH) purist.

He thinks he understands SW better than GL and LFL and because the universe didn't pan out exactly the way he thought it would from the first two movies, GL must be a money-grubbing loon falling off his rocker.

No offense, but the idea that this fan knows SW better than GL and is qualified to make judgements and pass insults based on his own assumptions from each film (as shown by his whining about BS he jumped to conclusion about from TPM) is something I find offensive.

He had an idea of what SW should have been, and GL had his own vision.

You tell me which is really SW. And personally, WEG, Bantam, and the post-Bantam EU cause me many headaches--don't generalize me with Official fanboyz like those on TF.net.

Brown shrieked that GL was a poor writer compared to Tolkein simply because he didn't elaborate exactly on the nature and backstory of the Trade Federation.

Brown complained that the new concept artist was a moron because he made AATs which floated and couldn't use their projectile weaponry well (not to mention--Brown assumes that they can't hover at a higher altitude just because we didn't see them do so--nevermind that there's no evidence repulsorlifts have somesort of fixed altitude--any why would you hover high-enough to use fucking anti-armor projectile weapons against creatures and primitives on foot, which, if you did hover higher, could get in close and likely attack the less armored underside?).

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Whatever happened to the good old days when neither Ralph McQuarrie and Joe Johnston wouldn't have stood for such blatant mistakes? (Is this why neither man was hired for TPM? because they'd dare to talk back to George Lucas and correct his many mistakes?)
Like designing a Falcon which couldn't contain the set?

Before waxing on how great Brown's canon purism is, you should actually read some of his shit--including stuff posted above in the very same thread.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-05-30 05:48pm

Bullshit. Have you read his site? He is definitely not a canon purist. He's an original trilogy (really just ESB and ANH) purist.

I have, and oddly enough I didn't get that impression!

He thinks he understands SW better than GL and LFL and because the universe didn't pan out exactly the way he thought it would from the first two movies, GL must be a money-grubbing loon falling off his rocker.

I didn't get that from his site. Maybe you're referring to personal knowledge of him or something that occured on the forum? In the articles by him that I recall, he tried to concoct theories about how everything worked based on the canon sources, whilst considering EU stuff, he generally dismissed it by pointing out brainbugs. What's wrong with that?

GL himself, though he profits from the EU directly, has run roughshod over their continuity, despite the cries of some of his fans. Why should not other of his fans folllow his example? Or is the only "right" opinion that which says everything with the Star Wars name on it is of equal value?

Plenty of people tell me ROTJ sucks ass, I can respect their reasons for not liking it, yet its my favorite SW movie! I just disagree that's all. I don't say it's not canon, or GL should be fired for it. And I hated Jar Jar, but I enjoyed TPM. I enjoy some of the EU as well.

No offense, but the idea that this fan knows SW better than GL and is qualified to make judgements and pass insults based on his own assumptions from each film (as shown by his whining about BS he jumped to conclusion about from TPM) is something I find offensive.

Many fans make this very claim, that they DO in fact know Star Wars more than GL himself (considering they would have avoided some of the mistakes he made with continuity in the prequels, etc).

Now obviously, GL created the franchise, so its his IP, and he has the money and experience to create it. He has the power to control it through his lawyers and company execs, so it hardly matters what a few fans think. Whether you agree or not, they do have a point!

As many of speculated here, GL seems to be making it up as he goes along, changing his mind often (as is his perogative) but he often pretends in public that he meant it this way all along, with flimsy excuses which many frankly don't buy.

He had an idea of what SW should have been, and GL had his own vision.

Obviously, and he's not alone. But that doesn't invalidate his site, and the excellent material it contains.

You tell me which is really SW. And personally, WEG, Bantam, and the post-Bantam EU cause me many headaches--don't generalize me with Official fanboyz like those on TF.net.

It's the stories of George Lucas. It's also everything with the liscensed name on it. Are we going to have a canon debate again? Because that's been done to death. Brown's point seemed to be that the "spinoff" material was almost always inferior to the original sources and full of brain bugs. Plenty of fans agree. There is no reason why they cannot have this opinion..

Brown shrieked that GL was a poor writer compared to Tolkein simply because he didn't elaborate exactly on the nature and backstory of the Trade Federation.

I wasn't privy to that conversation, is that also in the forums?

GL could have avoided the "contradictions" between the EU and the prequels (and the fan displeasure it has caused) had he done so, but he didn't, so in a sense, yes, it is his own fault.

Nobody has to take it as hard as some have, of course.

Before waxing on how great Brown's canon purism is, you should actually read some of his shit--including stuff posted above in the very same thread.

I found his site informative and fun. I say the same thing about Mike's SWvST site. I don't judge his site by the posts on his forum either. Or were you looking at a different site than I was?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-30 06:05pm

I found it informative and better in numerous ways.

Did you not read his scathing complaints about how GL made TPM?

Did you not pick up on how he's abandoned his site and SW because he thinks GL's essentially a hack who killed the myth with AOTC?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-05-30 11:32pm

Did you not read his scathing complaints about how GL made TPM?

Did you not pick up on how he's abandoned his site and SW because he thinks GL's essentially a hack who killed the myth with AOTC?

Obviously I hadn't. I have never been to his forum in fact. I had no idea he even disliked AOTC until I was told on here. Honest.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-30 11:49pm

Eh, we all miss something sometime. I'll dig up the quote for you.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-05-31 12:05am

Thanks.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-06-01 02:14am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I found it informative and better in numerous ways.

Did you not read his scathing complaints about how GL made TPM?

Did you not pick up on how he's abandoned his site and SW because he thinks GL's essentially a hack who killed the myth with AOTC?

No.RB abandoned his site because LFL threatened to issue a C&D before and Robert Brown blew a storm in a teacup because of that.

His main biff with GL was about him merchandising the products instead of concentrating on the story.That and over-reliance on special effects rather than a good story and acting.

That has been the bane of many fans.Let's face it,who here isn't pissed over GL OT stormtroopers are clones and Greedo shooting first?All this for the purpose of "Merchandising".BAH!

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-01 02:22am

PainRack wrote: No.RB abandoned his site because LFL threatened to issue a C&D before and Robert Brown blew a storm in a teacup because of that.

Cease and desist? For what?

His main biff with GL was about him merchandising the products instead of concentrating on the story.That and over-reliance on special effects rather than a good story and acting.

His main beef was that GL vision of SW and his vision of SW were not the same. It oozes off his site.

That has been the bane of many fans.Let's face it,who here isn't pissed over GL OT stormtroopers are clones and Greedo shooting first?All this for the purpose of "Merchandising".BAH!

I don't see what either has to do with merchandizing- did Steven Spielberg edit out the guns and make them walkie-talkies in ET (hate that movie!) to market it better?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-06-01 02:30am

Vympel wrote:
PainRack wrote: No.RB abandoned his site because LFL threatened to issue a C&D before and Robert Brown blew a storm in a teacup because of that.
Cease and desist? For what?

His main biff with GL was about him merchandising the products instead of concentrating on the story.That and over-reliance on special effects rather than a good story and acting.
His main beef was that GL vision of SW and his vision of SW were not the same. It oozes off his site.

That has been the bane of many fans.Let's face it,who here isn't pissed over GL OT stormtroopers are clones and Greedo shooting first?All this for the purpose of "Merchandising".BAH!
I don't see what either has to do with merchandizing- did Steven Spielberg edit out the guns and make them walkie-talkies in ET (hate that movie!) to market it better?

I don't know.Probably something to do with KJA.Apparently,a series of correspondence between them turned ugly and KJA blacklisted him.

No,it isn't.If you really have read his site,you notice that the only grip with Star Wars was the merchandising,the commercialising of Star Wars and the inherent sloppiness that generates.Hell,remember his Myth of Star Wars essay?That should make it clear it isn't a battle between GL Star Wars and RB Star Wars.

The clonetroopers,Bobba Fett inclusion in AOTC,Greedo shooting first were all editied to create a better product image.Same as why the SE included more Bobba scenes.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-01 02:50am

PainRack wrote: I don't know.Probably something to do with KJA.Apparently,a series of correspondence between them turned ugly and KJA blacklisted him.

Well I can imagine it'd turn ugly rather quickly. He also got into a tiff with Mike, and probably Dr Saxton to boot.

No,it isn't.If you really have read his site,you notice that the only grip with Star Wars was the merchandising,the commercialising of Star Wars and the inherent sloppiness that generates.Hell,remember his Myth of Star Wars essay?That should make it clear it isn't a battle between GL Star Wars and RB Star Wars.

Yes, I have really read his site. He doesn't seem to have much anger for merchandising and sloppiness in TPM- instead he just hurls invective because he doesn't like the new design, and goes absolutely ape when LFL overrode his interpretation of lightsabre fighting with the VD.

The clonetroopers,Bobba Fett inclusion in AOTC,Greedo shooting first were all editied to create a better product image.Same as why the SE included more Bobba scenes.

I dispute that. It's *his* story. How does having Clonetroopers make the product image better? If anything, putting Fett in the film was an acknowledgement to the fans love of the character, not a snub. It just seems like he can't do anything right. How does Greedo shooting first improve the product image? Is that why Spielberg edited the guns out of ET? Or was there another reason?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-06-01 05:07am

Vympel wrote:
PainRack wrote:How does Greedo shooting first improve the product image? Is that why Spielberg edited the guns out of ET? Or was there another reason?

For reasons of political correctness, I think.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-06-01 05:13am

Spielberg replaced the shotguns from that scene in ET because in the years since he first made the film, raising his children made him think about the situation differently. He decided that it didn't seem reasonable for the FBI to deploy shotguns on a group of unarmed kids on bicycles when they had the road blocked anyway.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-06-01 02:22pm

PainRack wrote:That has been the bane of many fans.Let's face it,who here isn't pissed over GL OT stormtroopers are clones and Greedo shooting first?All this for the purpose of "Merchandising".BAH!

There's evidence that stormtroopers were considered clones for a long time.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-06-05 08:41am

Vympel wrote:
PainRack wrote: I don't know.Probably something to do with KJA.Apparently,a series of correspondence between them turned ugly and KJA blacklisted him.
Well I can imagine it'd turn ugly rather quickly. He also got into a tiff with Mike, and probably Dr Saxton to boot.

No,it isn't.If you really have read his site,you notice that the only grip with Star Wars was the merchandising,the commercialising of Star Wars and the inherent sloppiness that generates.Hell,remember his Myth of Star Wars essay?That should make it clear it isn't a battle between GL Star Wars and RB Star Wars.
Yes, I have really read his site. He doesn't seem to have much anger for merchandising and sloppiness in TPM- instead he just hurls invective because he doesn't like the new design, and goes absolutely ape when LFL overrode his interpretation of lightsabre fighting with the VD.

The clonetroopers,Bobba Fett inclusion in AOTC,Greedo shooting first were all editied to create a better product image.Same as why the SE included more Bobba scenes.
I dispute that. It's *his* story. How does having Clonetroopers make the product image better? If anything, putting Fett in the film was an acknowledgement to the fans love of the character, not a snub. It just seems like he can't do anything right. How does Greedo shooting first improve the product image? Is that why Spielberg edited the guns out of ET? Or was there another reason?

The so call "tiff" with micheal and Saxton probably amounts to nothing.After all,although he disagreed on some of their conclusions,he supported their work before.

Read his Myth of Star Wars Essay then.As for hurling invective,if you really have read his site,you notice that while residue over Doug Chiang overriding the X-wings were present,the sole gripe he maintained was over the Naboo Fighter and R2-D2 neccesary contortions to fit.

And remember,despite his opposition to Chiang flying R2-D2 in TPM,he didn't stand around and gripe over R2-D2 flying in AOTC but chose to rationalise and fit it in.That speaks of an open-mindness that frankly,many of us don't have.Of course,he never managed to fit in the jump jets rocket fuel and the like in properly,the main reason why he was griping over Chiang TPM flying R2-D2.

Increasing Fett visual exposure is an attempt to cash in on a loved character of Star Wars,and extending his exposure further back to the SW timeline was also an attempt to make new products.

Cleaning up Han's image with Greedo shooting first was not for political correctness.It was for merchandising Han's good guy product,as opposed to the rogue and scoundral he really was.How can it be PC when he allowed continued claims of racism to propgrate throughout his films?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-05 11:42am

PainRack wrote:Cleaning up Han's image with Greedo shooting first was not for political correctness.It was for merchandising Han's good guy product,as opposed to the rogue and scoundral he really was.How can it be PC when he allowed continued claims of racism to propgrate throughout his films?

Actually it for symbolism and theme. Look at the movies: With that sole exception with Han shooting first, everyone who went in with naked aggression and started the fight lost. Anakin vs Dooku, Obiwan vs Maul (then the reveral when Maul is the aggressor tormenting him of Obi wan vs Maul), Hoth (base was destroyed but the Imperials didn't achieve their objective, thus they lost), Yavin (duh), etc. By changing that, it is now a consistent theme through the movies.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-06-05 11:53am

Ender wrote:
PainRack wrote:Cleaning up Han's image with Greedo shooting first was not for political correctness.It was for merchandising Han's good guy product,as opposed to the rogue and scoundral he really was.How can it be PC when he allowed continued claims of racism to propgrate throughout his films?
Actually it for symbolism and theme. Look at the movies: With that sole exception with Han shooting first, everyone who went in with naked aggression and started the fight lost. Anakin vs Dooku, Obiwan vs Maul (then the reveral when Maul is the aggressor tormenting him of Obi wan vs Maul), Hoth (base was destroyed but the Imperials didn't achieve their objective, thus they lost), Yavin (duh), etc. By changing that, it is now a consistent theme through the movies.

Greedo, if you recall, started the encounter by pointing a blaster at him and maneuvering him into the seat, so the theme isn't broken regardless of whether or not Han shot first.

Greedo shoves Han into a chair and starts talking about how he's going to kill Han and deliver his corpse to Jabba, Han keeps Greedo talking to distract him (it's quite impossible to talk and shoot at the same time, after all), Greedo loses his focus, Han draws blaster, Han makes a nice crater in Greedo's chest.

Greedo started it. Han finished it. It fits the theme.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-06-06 03:20am

Excuse me, but is his site completely deleted?
My old link http://www.synicom.com.au/sw does not work and I personally enjoyed his site and I would like to save it.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-06 08:41am

Either it's down- or, God forbid- he's simply taken it down for a massive revamp and plans to burst on the scene for more invective against all things EU and prequel, with suitable amounts of bile in store for people who have done him no harm- Dr Saxton and our own Mike Wong.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-06-06 08:56am

Vympel wrote:Either it's down- or, God forbid- he's simply taken it down for a massive revamp and plans to burst on the scene for more invective against all things EU and prequel, with suitable amounts of bile in store for people who have done him no harm- Dr Saxton and our own Mike Wong.

I do not know the FULL story to judge. I simply liked his site and I missed it.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-06-06 02:10pm

vakundok wrote:Excuse me, but is his site completely deleted?
My old link http://www.synicom.com.au/sw does not work and I personally enjoyed his site and I would like to save it.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw is the proper link, but the server appears to be gone.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-06-07 02:02pm

Vympel wrote:Either it's down- or, God forbid- he's simply taken it down for a massive revamp and plans to burst on the scene for more invective against all things EU and prequel, with suitable amounts of bile in store for people who have done him no harm- Dr Saxton and our own Mike Wong.

Oh fuck it man!Stop backstabbing a good man in the back.

Despite the man known bias,I ask you to look at his work instead of his emotions.Tell me,where on his site,essays and collected research is there an implied denial of the facts.His only contention with Saxton and MW is over topic matters and have not extended over to personal emotions,although his feelings of envy over Saxton massive support and fame through the SW community is known.And IMO,its a fair emotion.I don't know any normal human being who won't be,as Saxton technical commentaries have begun from a small page about Imperial warships and technology to become the "bible" of SW commentaries.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-07 02:33pm

PainRack wrote: Oh fuck it man!Stop backstabbing a good man in the back.

I don't think either of us is in any position to decide whether he is a good man, and this topic is totally irrelevant regardless. He thinks he knows Star Wars better than George Lucas does. It's repugnant and arrogant.

Despite the man known bias,I ask you to look at his work instead of his emotions.Tell me,where on his site,essays and collected research is there an implied denial of the facts.

His dismissal of IG-88 as an assassin droid as rubbish. An explicit denial of the facts. Why? Because he doesn't like it.

His only contention with Saxton and MW is over topic matters and have not extended over to personal emotions,although his feelings of envy over Saxton massive support and fame through the SW community is known.And IMO,its a fair emotion. I don't know any normal human being who won't be,as Saxton technical commentaries have begun from a small page about Imperial warships and technology to become the "bible" of SW commentaries.

Why? Who has time for bitter, jealous ex-fans who spent in an inordinate amount of time carping about how Lucas has lost the plot, how everything since ESB has sucked, how he's a merchandising hack (your assertions that he his based on nothing but your own opinions nonwithstanding)? Certainly not me, especially when Dr Saxton put out a far superior product and was recognized for it.

The so call "tiff" with micheal and Saxton probably amounts to nothing.After all,although he disagreed on some of their conclusions,he supported their work before.

Sorry, if you've read his forum statements, you'll know he despises both of them. He's a bitter shit.

Increasing Fett visual exposure is an attempt to cash in on a loved character of Star Wars,and extending his exposure further back to the SW timeline was also an attempt to make new products.

Why? Because you say so? Who the hell are you?

Cleaning up Han's image with Greedo shooting first was not for political correctness.It was for merchandising Han's good guy product,as opposed to the rogue and scoundral he really was.How can it be PC when he allowed continued claims of racism to propgrate throughout his films?

Why? Because you say so? Who the hell are you?