Iowa class battleship vs the German Bismarck

[Sea Skimmer]

Of course..the only modern us battleship to engage another battleship was the USS Washington which torn a Jap battleship apart in a little over 7 minutes..of course that was at night and almost point blank range..

If the Bismark was the worst warship would not the Prince of Wales and King George V have to be seem to be even worst....

No, they had far better protection and good armament, if one hampered by safety interlocks. If they mounted 14 inch triples they would have been the best treaty battleships.

[Sea Skimmer]

I was responding to a statement about Bismark being the worst warship...Bismark was tough and certainly more than a match one on one for any British Battleship except for maybe the Rodney or Nelson and both those ships were way to slow to force an action...

Tough? She was silenced in 23 minutes and lost half her main armament to one shell from the worlds worst 16 inch gun. THe ability to keep getting hit while sinking doesnt prove much of anything, generally major capital warships take hours to sink after being fately hit.

Some reports I have read believe that in spite of all the punishmnet the Bismark it was scuttled to prevent capture and not actually sunk by all the shell and torpedeos .....

Theres no evdience the order to scuttle was even carried out. But it doesnt matter, that last gallon of water to sink her was going to get in no matter what when that order was issued, and it was only issued because of fatel damage incliftced by British warships.

Fact is the order to scuttle is given just about any time a ship goes down even if its not nesscary ti sink the vessel, it was issued abaord an American destroyer that was being engaged by three battleships off Samar for example.

[Frank Hipper]

I was responding to a statement about Bismark being the worst warship...Bismark was tough and certainly more than a match one on one for any British Battleship except for maybe the Rodney or Nelson and both those ships were way to slow to force an action...

Some reports I have read believe that in spite of all the punishmnet the Bismark it was scuttled to prevent capture and not actually sunk by all the shell and torpedeos .....

Bismarck a match for a KGV? I'd vote for the Brit on the basis of electronics suite, rate of fire, and armor protection. And, personally, I think Bismarck could take a Nelson one-on-one. They were slow, slow, slow.

Bismarck tough? Absolutely!
But the thing here is, the ease with which she was put out of action. First, she was blinded early on, then her main turrets were knocked out one by one. She continued to fight with her secondaries 'til the very last, but she was a floating wreck. I've never heard a satisfactory conclusion to whether or not it was scuttling or torpedoes that finally sank her, but that is practically a moot point.

But, as I said in the post you quoted, there were worse capitol ships than Bismarck, and nearly as overrated.

[Darth Gojira]

Bismark = Cooler name = Wins

I'm not so sure.

The primary thing modern Germans would associate with the name Bismarck would be a particular preparation of herring favored by Bismarck himself, the Bismarck herring, and that's not a cool association.

The Bismarck as a ship doesn't seem to have that big a hold on the German popular imagination, what with the fact that the ship managed primarily to beat the stuffing out of a few warships smaller and older than itself and got a lucky shot on the Hood (and thus finally sunk the battle cruiser as a viable concept).

Now the Iowa. A warship has to be really tough to successfully carry off a name like that. It's just like the old Johnny Cash song, "A Boy Named Sue." I can just see the Iowa's radio operator screaming into his microphone: "My Name is Iowa! How Do You Do!" Right before the 16-inch guns erase a suitable target.

Seriously, though, the Iowa very literally had the Bismarck beat in every possible department. Even if it had not had that, the mere presence of radar on the Iowa would have routinely allowed the Iowa, with its speed advantage, to battle the Bismarck on terms of the Iowa's choosing.

But.....but.....DOUGHNUTS man!

[Stuart Mackey]

Theres no evdience the order to scuttle was even carried out. But it doesnt matter, that last gallon of water to sink her was going to get in no matter what when that order was issued, and it was only issued because of fatel damage incliftced by British warships.

Fact is the order to scuttle is given just about any time a ship goes down even if its not nesscary ti sink the vessel, it was issued abaord an American destroyer that was being engaged by three battleships off Samar for example.

Interesting article.

intersting tidbit

Not much, but it does also mean that there is as yet insufficant evidence to say what actually put Bismark down. That it was inevitable is obvious, what did it is not.

EDIT: also this

[Sea Skimmer]

As I’ve said, it doesn’t matter via which method, torpedo, shell or scuttle, that that last gallon of water got in, it was going to get in no matter what. Either it was from British action, or in the case of scuttling a direct result of British action. The Royal Navy sank her.

[Frank Hipper]

It matters a great deal to the Bismarck survivors.

[Kitsune]

A few notes:
First, Discovery channel had a program on a dive on the Bismark, they looked insided of the outer skin into the topedo void and there was no damage on the inner bulkhead inside of the torpedo belt. That would seem to support the ship was scuttled.

The main belt was also only penetrate in a couple of places and they were on the Rodney's side of the Bismark. According to Friedman, one of the Naval writers who many people quote, the Iowa's 16 inch /50 cannons so outperform any cannon (with the exceptiong of the Japanese 18.1 inch /45) in the war that the Americans were quite satified with the cannon. The Iowas cannon would have fairly easily been able to penetrate the Bismark's armor.

The Iowa also had much better protected propellers and would probably not have been disabled by the attacks of the stringbags.

[Sea Skimmer]

A few notes:
First, Discovery channel had a program on a dive on the Bismark, they looked insided of the outer skin into the topedo void and there was no damage on the inner bulkhead inside of the torpedo belt. That would seem to support the ship was scuttled.

That investigation was a sham that didn't produce a single bit of real evidence to support its preexisting conclusion.

The Iowa also had much better protected propellers and would probably not have been disabled by the attacks of the stringbags.

Likely. She had better rudders and props, and didn't have the horrible stern design of German ships, it's amazing how many times they lost their sterns to battle damage. What really would help her is having four shafts, which makes steering via engines far easier. Four shafts also beats out three for vibrations and engine room arrangements.

[Kitsune]

That investigation was a sham that didn't produce a single bit of real evidence to support its preexisting conclusion.

I realize that many of those shows are created with bias before they start. Do you have any suggestions on how you would look at the NTDS to be able to tell if the Bismark sunk through torpedo hits?

[Striderteen]

The Iowa would win but it would not be a cakewalk.

Both ships used High velocity guns

The Iowa was designed to kill Japanese Yamato-class Battleships which carried 19 in guns.

The Bismark has better armor that the Iowa at a cost to speed.

Iowa 16 in
Bismark 15 in

In the end the Iowa would win but it would be battered. The deciding factor would be who fires first.

Ah, but the Iowa has radar fire control on its main guns, giving her a HUGE advantage in accuracy especially at maximum range. Combine that accuracy with her devastatingly powerful 16"/50 guns and the Bismarck is in serious trouble right from the start.

I've never heard of the Montana class until recently. Where can I get some information on the ship's specs?

The five Montana-class battleships were nearly a third larger than the Iowas and featured much heavier armor protection, especially underwater. They carried the same secondary armament as their predecessors -- twenty five-inch guns in ten twin mounts but had a much more powerful main battery of twelve sixteen-inch guns.

[Tranan]

There is an Iowa class battleship 100 km from the Bismarck. Their captains are aware of the others presence but do not know exactly where the other ship is. Both ships are in full combat capacity and are crewed by the finest personnel in their respective navies. Who wins this engagement ?

The Bismark is an older desing than the Iowa. It like comparing a new car with a car that was bilt 15 years ago.

The Iowa class ship was designe with the war experence that was made erly in the war. with that in mind I wod still bet on the Germans. Just to spite the US!

[Frank Hipper]

The Bismark is an older desing than the Iowa. It like comparing a new car with a car that was bilt 15 years ago.

The Iowa class ship was designe with the war experence that was made erly in the war. with that in mind I wod still bet on the Germans. Just to spite the US!

Charming.
Let's hope that spite doubles as a floatation device!

[Sea Skimmer]

I realize that many of those shows are created with bias before they start. Do you have any suggestions on how you would look at the NTDS to be able to tell if the Bismark sunk through torpedo hits?

The last British torpedoes to be fired all where Mk8's, which at the time had a working magnetic detonator. If they exploded under the Bismarck, which is, quite possibul, that damage alone would have been fatal and would have torn the guts out of the ship. I'd try and look into the engine spaces.

However as I've said, it doesn't matter. By the time the order to scuttle was given there was no way the vessel could remain afloat for much longer and she already had 10-20,000 tons of water aboard. That last gallon was going to get in no matter what, and it was going to get in because of the Royal navy.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Bismark is an older desing than the Iowa. It like comparing a new car with a car that was bilt 15 years ago.

The Iowa class ship was designe with the war experence that was made erly in the war. with that in mind I wod still bet on the Germans. Just to spite the US!

There wasn't much wartime experience to go on in mid 1940 when the first Iowa was laid down, and the design was finished well before that.

[Sea Skimmer]

The five Montana-class battleships were nearly a third larger than the Iowas and featured much heavier armor protection, especially underwater. They carried the same secondary armament as their predecessors -- twenty five-inch guns in ten twin mounts but had a much more powerful main battery of twelve sixteen-inch guns.

That’s not quite correct, Montana would have carried the 5/54 cal Mk 16 gun rather then the 5/38 Mk12 cal used by the Iowans. The only real difference was a longer barrel for higher performance and different ammo, however that gave it a slightly lower sustained rate of fire because of crew fatigue. This weapon was later mounted in single turrets on the Midway class carriers.

The 5/54 later was developed into an automatic weapon and it and developments of it have armed most every USN vessel unto a few years ago when we began using a 5/62 gun.

[Striderteen]

The five Montana-class battleships were nearly a third larger than the Iowas and featured much heavier armor protection, especially underwater. They carried the same secondary armament as their predecessors -- twenty five-inch guns in ten twin mounts but had a much more powerful main battery of twelve sixteen-inch guns.

That?s not quite correct, Montana would have carried the 5/54 cal Mk 16 gun rather then the 5/38 Mk12 cal used by the Iowans. The only real difference was a longer barrel for higher performance and different ammo, however that gave it a slightly lower sustained rate of fire because of crew fatigue. This weapon was later mounted in single turrets on the Midway class carriers.

The 5/54 later was developed into an automatic weapon and it and developments of it have armed most every USN vessel unto a few years ago when we began using a 5/62 gun.

Ah, okay. I stand corrected and bow to your superior knowledge.