Clash of the Titans

[Alyeska]

Ok, this is going to be a bloody and nasty battle.

The Scimitar vs the Enterprise-D from All Good Things.

We know that the Scimitar can take ungodly levels of torpedo fire from the Enterprise and come away fairly unscathed. Then again the Enterprise punched right through Negh'Var variant type Klingon ships like a hot knife through butter.

Would win this battle?

[consequences]

Respective Commanders?

[Crazedwraith]

dont think we really have enough info about the future Ent-D to say.
Although not having seen Nemisis i cant say anythink bout the Scimitar

[Col. Crackpot]

Respective Commanders?

hmmmm

how about Edward Jellico vs. Sela

[Alyeska]

dont think we really have enough info about the future Ent-D to say.
Although not having seen Nemisis i cant say anythink bout the Scimitar

We have a fair amount of information on the Ent-D. Its got that massive phaser cannon that is capable of punching right through Negh'Var variant ships that are 20 years advanced over DS9 era. It has 16 phaser arrays visible compared to the original GCSs 11. We know that its been constantly upgraded over the years so its safe to assume its got Sovereign level phasers or better rather then the older arrays. It still has at least one torpedo launcher (forward) as well as a cloaking device and a warp drive so fast that they had to recalibrate the warp scale. Its got a third warp engine and it also seemingly has a significantly more powerful warp core. We also know the this Ent-D could take significantly more abuse than standard Galaxy class ships and its warp core was much less vulnerable to being destabilized.

[Alyeska]

Respective Commanders?

hmmmm

how about Edward Jellico vs. Sela

Fair enough. It puts smart tactical thinkers in charge.

[NecronLord]

The ueber GCS is a battleship that is what? 20-30 years ahead of All good things... The Shcem is a dreadnought that's about 10 years max ahead. I'd favour the ueber GCS..

[consequences]

Much depends upon the relative undetectability of each ships cloak then, and since the uber-Ent-D is a product of a much later tech base, it will probably spank the Scimitar in sensor performance.

Also the Scimitar is 8 years ahead at best from the 15 year comment at the start of Nemesis.

[Death from the Sea]

I think the Galaxy-X Ent-D version will win through sheer firepower and future tech, but I would like to point out the Schimitar has the advanatage of firing through her cloak and raised shields under her cloak. Even the future Ent-D had to decloak to fire and raise shields.

[Howedar]

I'd bet on the super-GCS.

[Alyeska]

I to have to go with the Galaxy-X model. Not even the Scimitat could do to the Enterprise what the E-D did to that one Klingon ship. And those are Sovereign equivilent ships with upgraded future tech. That phaser cannon is probably the single deciding factor in this debate. The larger number of secondary arrays would make for an even more lopsided battle.

Now, I think the Scimitar can put up a fight, but it can't win. With the level of shields it had compared to the E-E torpedoes, it might be enough to sustain several phaser cannon hits, but its not enough. That phaser cannon was able to fire at such a high rate of fire and utterly smash the Negh'Var it was astounding.

[seanrobertson]

dont think we really have enough info about the future Ent-D to say.
Although not having seen Nemisis i cant say anythink bout the Scimitar

We have a fair amount of information on the Ent-D. Its got that massive phaser cannon that is capable of punching right through Negh'Var variant ships that are 20 years advanced over DS9 era. It has 16 phaser arrays visible compared to the original GCSs 11. We know that its been constantly upgraded over the years so its safe to assume its got Sovereign level phasers or better rather then the older arrays. It still has at least one torpedo launcher (forward) as well as a cloaking device and a warp drive so fast that they had to recalibrate the warp scale. Its got a third warp engine and it also seemingly has a significantly more powerful warp core. We also know the this Ent-D could take significantly more abuse than standard Galaxy class ships and its warp core was much less vulnerable to being destabilized.

A slight nitpick, my good Alyeska.

The ships that the E-D II blew up might not've been as big as Negh'Var. I've never seen a scaling of the Voodieh-class attack cruisers, but many people have insisted that they were closer to Vor'chas in size *shrugs*. I can't really comment on that, though I imagine such a determination is possible from the episode and some good scaling. My source isn't a participant in vs. debates, but he is well-versed in Treknology (Kyle Soderholm, the brains behind the Armada mod Project: Armada, for which I'm a beta-tester).

What I can confirm is that those ships lacked the disruptor cannons that we saw on the N'V herself. This might've been something excluded from the mass-produced Negh'Var, or it could be that the ships in "AGT," powerful but border-patrol oriented ships, lacked the power for those weapons. (We did see N'V variants with such weapons in "Endgame," after all.)

As such, the two ships the E-D engaged might not've been comparable to the N'V we saw in DS9. Destroying them, therefore, might not be quite that big a deal...and IIRC, less than a couple dozen shots from those ships not only disabled the E-D II's cloak, but did drain their shields quite a bit (???).

This is all I could find from the script:

GAINES
(off console)
Our cloak isn't functioning. We
took a direct hit to the starboard
plasma coil. Engineering reports
seven hours until we can cloak
again.

Direct hit doesn't mean that the shields were down, of course, but it does sound as if just a fleeting attack from the ships were enough to bleed through, drain the shields a fair amount, or whatever. (Weapons did indeed seem to outstrip shields in that timeline, save for the love taps those two ships gave the Pasteur.)

Anyway, like I said, that's a nitpick. The phaser cannon on the E-D II easily chewed through that N'V variant's shields like they weren't even there. Multiple photorp hits wouldn't do that. Quantums might, though, so it's hard to say how much faster the E-II would inflict damage on Scimitar.

[Dark Primus]

I do belive those klingons ships were scaled down version of the Negh'Var in a way. They don't have the large disruptor cannons attached to the hull.
And Worf said they were "Attack cruisers" so the Vor'cha class has probably either taken out of service completely or been scaled down.
I found of the rate of fire to be impressive compare to the constant boring 'one beam fireing' we keep seeing all the time. And they could fire through their cloaking.

[Alyeska]

Here is some interesting data regarding the Galaxy class warp engines and the improvements the War Galaxy upgrade has recieved.

When all three E-Ds enter the anomoly they do so in unison and start a static warp shell. Each ships warp core progressively fails.

The young E-D (just weeks old) manages to hold out for 53 seconds before its core detonates.

The E-D as of the end of the series (7 years old) holds out for 72 seconds before its core detonates.

The Galaxy-X model E-D (32+ years old) holds out for 100 seconds.

As you can see the Enterprise continualy had upgrades over the years. The E-D had a 36% increase in saftey to its warp drive since the begining. Even then we know the E-D was a pre War-GCS model in Generations. Its obvious the Galaxy class had recieved some rather nice upgrades over times. AGT shows significant upgrades to the drives when it comes to subspace and other affects knock it out. We already know the War GCS model had other structural upgrades designed to keep it alive in sustained combat. The Galaxy-X had a nearly 100% inrease over the original and thats pretty good. Factor in more power generation and you have a rather nice upgraded Galaxy there.

[seanrobertson]

Here is some interesting data regarding the Galaxy class warp engines and the improvements the War Galaxy upgrade has recieved.

You know, it's funny...I was wondering about this very same thing!

When all three E-Ds enter the anomoly they do so in unison and start a static warp shell. Each ships warp core progressively fails.

The young E-D (just weeks old) manages to hold out for 53 seconds before its core detonates.

The E-D as of the end of the series (7 years old) holds out for 72 seconds before its core detonates.

The Galaxy-X model E-D (32+ years old) holds out for 100 seconds.

As you can see the Enterprise continualy had upgrades over the years. The E-D had a 36% increase in saftey to its warp drive since the begining. Even then we know the E-D was a pre War-GCS model in Generations. Its obvious the Galaxy class had recieved some rather nice upgrades over times. AGT shows significant upgrades to the drives when it comes to subspace and other affects knock it out. We already know the War GCS model had other structural upgrades designed to keep it alive in sustained combat. The Galaxy-X had a nearly 100% inrease over the original and thats pretty good. Factor in more power generation and you have a rather nice upgraded Galaxy there.

Agreed.

A 100% increase over ~30 years is potentially useful information, if of course one was to accept that, even as a potential illusion by Q, the E-D II's capabilities were depicted accurately.

It also holds up fairly well next to what we're told in "Yesterday's Enterprise":

TASHA: Deflector shield technology has advanced considerably during the war. Our heat-dissipation rates are probably double those of the Enterprise-C, so we can hang in a firefight a lot longer.

Over 20 years, then, shields can dissipate energy twice as fast as the E-C--an increase of about 100%.

That doesn't necessarily mean that every few decades will see a doubling of shield strength and the like just by virtue of passed time, but that's at least twice that we hear of similar rates of progression in the mid and then late 24th century. The E-D example is more impressive because it involved modifications to an existing design, whereas the GCS's improvements over the Ambassador at least partly involved a whole new, far more massive ship.

Kinda interesting. As you know, I tend to be skeptical about claims to the effect that ships in the Dominion War were several times more capable than their pre-war counterparts. It would seem that even doubling shield strength and so on does require a good bit of R&D time.

[Alyeska]

Kinda interesting. As you know, I tend to be skeptical about claims to the effect that ships in the Dominion War were several times more capable than their pre-war counterparts. It would seem that even doubling shield strength and so on does require a good bit of R&D time.

Even then we have seen the Galaxy class in the war do much better then we ever saw in TNG except for the AGT Enterprise.

And just a side note. The technology aspect in AGT is supported by several DS9 episodes in which the Venture has been observed with its nacelle phaser arrays.

One final note. I think that the E-D in the future had even more shielding then what you indicate. We know that the disapation rates have vastly improved, but that doesn't even acount for more powerful shielding systems with more powerful M/AM cores. Then there is the Regenerative Shield issue. A Galaxy-X which is at least 20 years advanced beyond the E-E in Nemesis ought to be carrying regenerative shielding.

Now here is a really scary thought. The Galaxy class got some MAJOR upgrades that turned it into a real bad ass ship. I have got to wonder what the combat oriented Sovereign class had done with it...

[Col. Crackpot]

Kinda interesting. As you know, I tend to be skeptical about claims to the effect that ships in the Dominion War were several times more capable than their pre-war counterparts. It would seem that even doubling shield strength and so on does require a good bit of R&D time.

Even then we have seen the Galaxy class in the war do much better then we ever saw in TNG except for the AGT Enterprise.

And just a side note. The technology aspect in AGT is supported by several DS9 episodes in which the Venture has been observed with its nacelle phaser arrays.

One final note. I think that the E-D in the future had even more shielding then what you indicate. We know that the disapation rates have vastly improved, but that doesn't even acount for more powerful shielding systems with more powerful M/AM cores. Then there is the Regenerative Shield issue. A Galaxy-X which is at least 20 years advanced beyond the E-E in Nemesis ought to be carrying regenerative shielding.

Now here is a really scary thought. The Galaxy class got some MAJOR upgrades that turned it into a real bad ass ship. I have got to wonder what the combat oriented Sovereign class had done with it...

*contemplates a sovereign with 2 saucer mounted uber-phasers

[Kerneth]

I'd question whether the Galaxy-X Enterprise was from the same timeline that developed the Sovereign-class. Unless you want to stipulate that the Enterprise-E gets destroyed and replaced with an upgraded Galaxy-class Enterprise--and didn't the Galaxy-X have Enterprise-D on its hull plating?--there WAS no Galaxy-class Enterprise 30 years into the future. It wouldn't make much sense for Starfleet to replace the Sovereign class Enterprise with an older model starship, and change the hull number from E back to D!

As a side note, a Sovereign with its narrower design would probably look rather silly with a third warp nacelle mounted between the other two, though I suppose mounting two more warp nacelles in the same fashion as the Prometheus might work out nicely.

[Alyeska]

I'd question whether the Galaxy-X Enterprise was from the same timeline that developed the Sovereign-class. Unless you want to stipulate that the Enterprise-E gets destroyed and replaced with an upgraded Galaxy-class Enterprise--and didn't the Galaxy-X have Enterprise-D on its hull plating?--there WAS no Galaxy-class Enterprise 30 years into the future. It wouldn't make much sense for Starfleet to replace the Sovereign class Enterprise with an older model starship, and change the hull number from E back to D!

As a side note, a Sovereign with its narrower design would probably look rather silly with a third warp nacelle mounted between the other two, though I suppose mounting two more warp nacelles in the same fashion as the Prometheus might work out nicely.

Given the time frame in which the Sovereign class was deployed shortly after All Good Things was aired, it is safe to assume the Sovereign class was in the alternate time line.

[TurboPhaser]

Do we have soem reasonable estimates of the power of the Phaser Cannon on the Galaxy - X?

[Death from the Sea]

I'd question whether the Galaxy-X Enterprise was from the same timeline that developed the Sovereign-class. Unless you want to stipulate that the Enterprise-E gets destroyed and replaced with an upgraded Galaxy-class Enterprise--and didn't the Galaxy-X have Enterprise-D on its hull plating?--there WAS no Galaxy-class Enterprise 30 years into the future. It wouldn't make much sense for Starfleet to replace the Sovereign class Enterprise with an older model starship, and change the hull number from E back to D!

Given the time frame in which the Sovereign class was deployed shortly after All Good Things was aired, it is safe to assume the Sovereign class was in the alternate time line.

I agree with Alyeska. But lets remember folks that the AGT Ent-D GalaxyX class is in another time line and that Riker in that time line had said that the Ent-D would have been decomissioned by then if it were not for him being an admiral and getting his pick of the fleet. It was probably after he made the Ent-D is personal flagship that they gave her a major refit.

[Alyeska]

Do we have soem reasonable estimates of the power of the Phaser Cannon on the Galaxy - X?

Using the Negh'Var variant ships one comes out with a really powerful weapon. These ships are reasonably similar to the Negh'Var seen in DS9 and given their status at 30+ years advanced over the DS9 situation, these ships are most likely much higher. In all probability the Phaser cannon is more powerful then any of the largest weapon volleys we have ever seen. Part of how deadly the cannon is is the fact that it is so concetrated. Its entirely possible the shields of the Klingon ships never failed, the cannon just punched right through them.

[Frank Hipper]

Its entirely possible the shields of the Klingon ships never failed, the cannon just punched right through them.

I would hazard that the Klingon shields definetly did not fail.