Can the Empire build a Dyson Sphere ?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-08 04:10pm

*chuckles at ALI_G's notions of requiring a universe worth or raw material to build a Dyson Sphere*

Anyway, moving on.

I think people are underestimating just how difficult it would be to build a DS.

Me too, but you are overestimating it.

Firstly, you have to create the industry possible to even create the DS [I can't even fathom how you would make sure a thing].

Maybe you can't, but SW is in that league already in terms of resources and ability to build stuff, however to build the thing, I am not sure about that.

Then you have to shift the manpower to the system in order to create the thing, which would require millions, perhaps billions of workers ...

Or rather, droid workers, actual living beings won't be required to the same degree, still, even billions, whats so special about that number in context of the scale of the Empire?

No, this isn't even Culture level, this is Xeelee level work on the go. Your Empire needs to be universe spanning before you can find the raw material to construct such a device.

No, galaxy spanning is more than enough.
A few stars worth of material is what is required IIRC.

Of course, you could try and make one from something less than neutronium, but then it wouldn't be a true DS ...

Could youpoint out where exactly it is stated that to be a true Dyson Sphere, it needs to be made from neutronium?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-08 04:12pm

Oh yes, I was ofcourse speaking of a single large enclosed DS, one could easily make a true DS as Nitram pointed out by simly building alot of "planarish" habitiats circling the sun.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-08 04:14pm

relics wrote: DATA
Sensor readings indicate the
presence of a G-type star at the
center of the sphere. There also
appears to be a class-M atmosphere
clinging to the interior surface

The sun is type G2 FYI

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-08 04:19pm

Iv'e seen the acronym DS a lot in this thread. To avoid confusion, lets all use these conventions:

Dyson Sphere: DS
Death Star 1: DS1
Death Star 2: DS2
Death Star Prototype: DSP

etc.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-08 04:22pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:Oh yes, I was ofcourse speaking of a single large enclosed DS, one could easily make a true DS as Nitram pointed out by simly building alot of "planarish" habitiats circling the sun.

This without even getting into either Culture Spheres(Which, to my limited understanding, are a sort of mobile Dyson Sphere, though I admit I'm not sure), or Niven's Ringworlds, Discworlds(Not the one with the turtle, Niven actually projected a world which is a flat 'disc' with a hole in the center for a star. He noted it would make an interesting world for a fantasy realm: Where species from hotter and colder worlds evolve for long enough on this singular plain, you'll get funky creatures), and 'Canworlds', Ringworlds whose tops and bottums enclosed.

And none of these require 'universe-spanning' influence. With sufficient transmutation, a few normal star's will suffice.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-08 04:28pm

AFAIK a culture sphere is a very rare and completely immobile artifact. Only one was destroyed in the idiran war, and it's not known what side it was on. That said I imagine you're thinking abbout orbitals. They are much smaller, and rotate in an orbit around the star, giving a day-night cycle. They are movable, just about...

Don't forget necron dyson spheres (I shit ye not.) on that list of fictional ones.

How to build a sphere.

How does this diskworld work then?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-08 04:30pm

NecronLord wrote:AFAIK a culture sphere is a very rare and completely immobile artifact. Only one was destroyed in the idiran war, and it's not known what side it was on. That said I imagine you're thinking abbout orbitals. They are much smaller, and rotate in an orbit around the star, giving a day-night cycle. They are movable, just about...

Don't forget necron dyson spheres (I shit ye not.) on that list of fictional ones.

[url=http://users.rcn.com/jasp.javanet/dyson/]How to build a sphere.

How does this diskworld work then?[/quote]

The URL is dead.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-08 04:33pm

Fixed

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-08 04:36pm

This whole culture thing, which of Asimov's books were they in?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-06-08 04:38pm

YT300000 wrote:This whole culture thing, which of Asimov's books were they in?

::Slaps the bitch::

NO!

Iain M Banks books. See "who are the culture" sticky in osf.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-08 04:39pm

Corrected Link

The Dyskworld was to be extremely thick, and reach out 1LY. Night and day would be generated by bobbing it(Well, as Niven pointed out, the sun will be the one bobbing).

Why build one? Damn good question. There isn't really a good reason, unless you're a group of species working together to make extra living space. A Dyson Sphere or Ringworld requires all species in it need roughly the same enviroment, a Dyskworld ranges from incinerator hot to solid nitrogen cold.

Consider it the ultimate example of engineering: If you can build a Dyskworld, nothing is impossible.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-08 04:40pm

I'm not convinced that the Empire could build a Dyson Sphere. Now don't get me wrong, the Empire has fearsomely impressive industrial capabilities. Still, size is a major factor.

Now, I don't see getting the raw materials as an insurmountable problem for the Empire. It would take the committance of a sizable portion of the Empire's transport capabilities IMHO, but it would definately be doable without undue economic impact.

But, you still have to build the damn thing. And voluminous as the DS2 is, its still comically small next to a Dyson sphere. Say a Ford factory could build a car in a day. Cool, thats pretty damn impressive.

Now you give me the job of building an aircraft carrier. Scaling up from the car example, one would think it would only be a matter of time before the Ford factory could build said carrier. But the fact of the matter is, one cannot necessarily scale up construction abilities like that. I hazard to say that a car manufacturer could not build a carrier no matter how long you gave them: they simply don't have the capability.

Now, don't take this as me saying that there is no way the Empire couldn't build a Dyson Sphere. I am not trying to say that at all. What I am trying to say is that we have not seen the capability to build such a massive object demonstrated by the Empire, to my knowledge.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-08 04:41pm

A 'True' DS, you ignorant little trekkie,

Don't know what gave you that idea, I wouldn't be at stardestroyer.net if I were a Trekkie [and yes I am aware that some people do come here who claim to be Trekkies].

Common fallacy - people who do not agree with X Wars arguement are Trekkies.

I am a Fiver who watches Wars, Trek and SG1. I am not anti wars and I am not anti Trek. I am pro-B5, which hardly means anything these days due to their pathetic strength, but thats an other thread ...

is a collection of iron spheres orbiting at approximately 1AU, soaking up the sun's rays. Raiding the Oort Cloud and Asteroid Belt should produce enough iron to capture the majority of the sun's rays.

I'm [quite clearly] speaking of the one all of us have seen, the one in the TNG episode. In SF terms, that is the 'true' Dyson Sphere, and also for the purposes of this debate [otherwise it is a forgone conclusion that SW can create a 'cheap' DS - debate over, its easy for the Empire!].

An 'Enclosed' Sphere is harder to build, but still not requiring even Empire level tech. As Larry Niven pointed out(In A Step Further Out), the mass needed for it is present in the system we live in now. Of course, we'd need to perfect cheap transmutation to convert Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune into iron, along with the Oort Cloud and Asteroid Belt, to produce a thin one. Any group with decent FTL, reach, and shipping can gather these resources.

And where is the neutronium going to come from? As far as I know, real neutronium is not in large abundence! Prove me wrong if I am incorrect, but thats what I have been led to believe.

The biggest problems such a Sphere encounters are easily overcome with Imperial technology: Gravity can be generated without spin(Removing the problem of the atmosphere gathering on the 'equator'), and shielding can prevent asteroids from wrecking havoc.

The biggest problem I see is getting all that nice neutronium to build such a thing ... which brings us back to the age old question as to the differences between ST and SW neutronium, an arguement I am not going to touch.

*Snip history of Dyson Sphere - In this debate I am speaking of the one from ST, since its the ST vs SW Vs forum, I assumed this is what people would be debating*

[q]You do recall that the Empire maintained millions of ships, all of which had Imperial Dura-Armour, which is Neutronium based, right?[/q]

And what are the differences between this alloy and real Neutronium of the type used in the the DS? [I don't keep tabs on SW tech so someone will have to fill me in]. I doubt that a true ST DS could be created with real Neutronium, an inferior material would probably have to be used, unless the Empire can find/create[!] enough Neutronium in its own Galaxy with which to create the beast.

Finally, I point to my quote, to show that the Empire has use for Dyson Sphere's: They use them to harvest Black Holes and produce antigrav.

Look, I am sure they have something like the DS. What the thread about is whether they can build a ST dyson sphere. There is no doubt that the Empire could build a structure of DS size, comfortably. However, could they build the genuine DS? I would suggest not, unless someone can explain to me how the Empire would go about putting together all that neutronium.

Maybe your next reply can be without pre-formed misconceptions about my aligence?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-08 04:43pm

PLease prove your assertion that it has to be made of iron.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-08 04:44pm

ALI_G wrote: I'm [quite clearly] speaking of the one all of us have seen, the one in the TNG episode. In SF terms, that is the 'true' Dyson Sphere, and also for the purposes of this debate [otherwise it is a forgone conclusion that SW can create a 'cheap' DS - debate over, its easy for the Empire!].

In the name of Freeman Dyson, I smite thee.

And I think we're all still waiting for you to explain why a solid Dyson Sphere must be made of neutronium, particularly when neutronium is about the worst building material imaginable.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-08 04:46pm

About the Culture - since when did they have DS? I have only read Consider Phlebas, but my understanding was that their largest structure was the ring, while the ownership and size of objects such as the sphere was undetermined?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-08 04:47pm

Of course the major reason for building a DS is pointless for the empire. If the empire has some need for the total power of a star they use a hypermatter reactor.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-08 04:47pm

Howedar wrote:
ALI_G wrote: I'm [quite clearly] speaking of the one all of us have seen, the one in the TNG episode. In SF terms, that is the 'true' Dyson Sphere, and also for the purposes of this debate [otherwise it is a forgone conclusion that SW can create a 'cheap' DS - debate over, its easy for the Empire!].

In the name of Freeman Dyson, I smite thee.

And I think we're all still waiting for you to explain why a solid Dyson Sphere must be made of neutronium, particularly when neutronium is about the worst building material imaginable.

Because isn't the thread about whether the Empire can build the ST DS, which was made of neutronium ... otherwise wouldn't it be in the Pure SW forum?

Makes sense when you think about it.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-08 04:48pm

ALI_G wrote:
A 'True' DS, you ignorant little trekkie,
Don't know what gave you that idea, I wouldn't be at stardestroyer.net if I were a Trekkie [and yes I am aware that some people do come here who claim to be Trekkies].

Common fallacy - people who do not agree with X Wars arguement are Trekkies.

I am a Fiver who watches Wars, Trek and SG1. I am not anti wars and I am not anti Trek. I am pro-B5, which hardly means anything these days due to their pathetic strength, but thats an other thread ...

You subscribed to the idea that a 'True' Dyson Sphere was what was shown in Trek. What else am I going to conclude? Oh, and now a moment to laugh at you with your persecution complex.

is a collection of iron spheres orbiting at approximately 1AU, soaking up the sun's rays. Raiding the Oort Cloud and Asteroid Belt should produce enough iron to capture the majority of the sun's rays.
I'm [quite clearly] speaking of the one all of us have seen, the one in the TNG episode. In SF terms, that is the 'true' Dyson Sphere, and also for the purposes of this debate [otherwise it is a forgone conclusion that SW can create a 'cheap' DS - debate over, its easy for the Empire!].

Of course, a power generation Dyson Sphere is in the reach of modern humanity.. If you give us a few centuries to move the materials around.

An 'Enclosed' Sphere is harder to build, but still not requiring even Empire level tech. As Larry Niven pointed out(In A Step Further Out), the mass needed for it is present in the system we live in now. Of course, we'd need to perfect cheap transmutation to convert Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune into iron, along with the Oort Cloud and Asteroid Belt, to produce a thin one. Any group with decent FTL, reach, and shipping can gather these resources.
And where is the neutronium going to come from? As far as I know, real neutronium is not in large abundence! Prove me wrong if I am incorrect, but thats what I have been led to believe.

'real' Neutronium? Are you one of Robert's little lapdogs that think it can't be stellar Neutronium because it would ruin his arguments? Explain what you mean by 'real', as the stuff in the starship's is pretty real.

The biggest problems such a Sphere encounters are easily overcome with Imperial technology: Gravity can be generated without spin(Removing the problem of the atmosphere gathering on the 'equator'), and shielding can prevent asteroids from wrecking havoc.
The biggest problem I see is getting all that nice neutronium to build such a thing ... which brings us back to the age old question as to the differences between ST and SW neutronium, an arguement I am not going to touch.

Good, the proposal that Trek neutronium is stellar and Wars is not was defeated before this website existed, you little retard.

*Snip history of Dyson Sphere - In this debate I am speaking of the one from ST, since its the ST vs SW Vs forum, I assumed this is what people would be debating*

[q]You do recall that the Empire maintained millions of ships, all of which had Imperial Dura-Armour, which is Neutronium based, right?[/q]

And what are the differences between this alloy and real Neutronium of the type used in the the DS? [I don't keep tabs on SW tech so someone will have to fill me in]. I doubt that a true ST DS could be created with real Neutronium, an inferior material would probably have to be used, unless the Empire can find/create[!] enough Neutronium in its own Galaxy with which to create the beast.

Why not? It has millions of ships equipped with the stuff. If you want to run numbers and prove it numerically, go ahead...

Finally, I point to my quote, to show that the Empire has use for Dyson Sphere's: They use them to harvest Black Holes and produce antigrav.
Look, I am sure they have something like the DS. What the thread about is whether they can build a ST dyson sphere. There is no doubt that the Empire could build a structure of DS size, comfortably. However, could they build the genuine DS? I would suggest not, unless someone can explain to me how the Empire would go about putting together all that neutronium.

Maybe your next reply can be without pre-formed misconceptions about my aligence?

Your allegiance appears to be Moron, with helpings of Rabid Trekkie. Cry Fiver all you want, you have subscribed to the Rabid Trekkie idea that somehow the neutronium present in SW ships is not 'real', which is enough for the label. Fuck off, please, unless you plan to contribute more than whines.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-08 04:49pm

Rye wrote:
YT300000 wrote:This whole culture thing, which of Asimov's books were they in?
::Slaps the bitch::

NO!

Iain M Banks books. See "who are the culture" sticky in osf.

Ow. Thanks.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-08 04:50pm

ALI_G wrote:About the Culture - since when did they have DS? I have only read Consider Phlebas, but my understanding was that their largest structure was the ring, while the ownership and size of objects such as the sphere was undetermined?

The orbital is their largest common stucture, they don't need to go bigger. As is mentioned in the essay a few notes on the culture, when they build something much bigger than orbitals, it's for fun. It's likely the ringworlds and spheres get built by bored GSVs.

Either the Idirans Homoda or the Culture built the sphere. They wouldn't destroy it in the war otherwise. Your probably thinking of the areospheres in LtW, something completely different.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-08 04:50pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:PLease prove your assertion that it has to be made of iron.

Do you mean mine? It doesn't: Iron is simply most plentiful while having the properties needed for energy absorbtion. It's also (relatively) easy to transmute, compared to heavier elements.

Of course, if you meant Ali Crackpot's assertion that it must be neutronium, he's being a little retard and thinking ST's Dyson Sphere is the one true one.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-08 04:58pm

So basically this Dyson Sphere can be the 'original' dyson sphere and not the ST one, thus doesn't have to be made of neutronium, and thus this thread is in the wrong forum?

Or is it the ST DS [the 'real' one for the purpose of this debate, anyway] and thus has to be made out of neutronium?

Maybe the thread creater could tell us?

NecronLord - Ok I didn't know that, thanks for clearing it up ...

SirNitram - We'll move back onto your arguement when it is established whether of not this is the ST DS or not. Then we'll see the difficulties from construting 17.6KM objects out of your alloy to creating a 2 AU one.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-08 05:01pm

ALI_G wrote:So basically this Dyson Sphere can be the 'original' dyson sphere and not the ST one, thus doesn't have to be made of neutronium, and thus this thread is in the wrong forum?

Indeed. It could also be any of the variations listed, and a few more I know of. The thread started never specified the one from Relics, so I saw no reason to conclude it. Not everyone is an idiot like you, and thinks they come from Trek.

And yes, it may be in the wrong forum. I don't care. If it is, a Mod will move it.

Or is it the ST DS [the 'real' one for the purpose of this debate, anyway] and thus has to be made out of neutronium?

Maybe the thread creater could tell us?

NecronLord - Ok I didn't know that, thanks for clearing it up ...

SirNitram - We'll move back onto your arguement when it is established whether of not this is the ST DS or not. Then we'll see the difficulties from construting 17.6KM objects out of your alloy to creating a 2 AU one.

900Km objects, actually. The DS-II was armoured. Is there a size difference? Sure. Doesn't mean they'll run out of material, like you claimed.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-08 05:02pm

SirNitram wrote:Of course, if you meant Ali Crackpot's assertion that it must be neutronium, he's being a little retard and thinking ST's Dyson Sphere is the one true one.

I meant ALI_G's yes.

Strange though, I have known ALI_G for years and all this time I had him pegged as a trekkie