The Matrix: The Machines' motives.

[Enricko]

Ive been saying this from the first matrix and maybe you guys have a better solution to the question .....

Why even make a matrix?

I mean the machines use humans to power thier shit. that's fine. But why connect them all together in a big program that lets them interact? I mean why not keep them seperate in a lil virtual world where they all have millions of dolars and bang models?

and lets take it a step further .... why even let the humans keep their brains? A human that is in a coma will still produce power. Give them all lobotomies at birth and you have no need for a matrix at all. you got a buncha people who cant think and just sit there makin energy and whatnot

Many people before us asked those questions. The only logical conclusion is that Morpheus was wrong and that his fanaticism blinded him. Nobody in Zion seems to understand the Machines real motives or ultimate goal. Maybe the Zionist's "CopperTop" theory is somekind of deny mechanism. They don't want to admit a truth that could attack their sanity, so they invented a different reason for the Matrix to exist (keeping humans as battery). Could it be also a lie spread by the Zion Council to motivate the rebels to continue the fight?

Unless we mark that one as a big writer scientific error (it could happen ), we have to look for what sort of goals the AIs would need a couple of millions (billions?) active human brains connected in a common virtual reality based on a true human era:

• - The Machines enjoy keeping humans alive in a zoo;
  - They need the brain network for a project or their everyday survival;
  - They are forced to take care of Humanity;
  - Nothing is real, nothing is important, there's a second Matrix that is emprisoning every humans and Machines alike in a sort of perverse game for the enjoyment of a third party.

The only thing special about millions of humans meeting together in VR could be that the Matrix cannot recreate lifelike human interactions. More people would reject the Matrix if everyone else they met was fake.

[Strider119]

Ive been saying this from the first matrix and maybe you guys have a better solution to the question .....

Why even make a matrix?

I mean the machines use humans to power thier shit. that's fine. But why connect them all together in a big program that lets them interact? I mean why not keep them seperate in a lil virtual world where they all have millions of dolars and bang models?

and lets take it a step further .... why even let the humans keep their brains? A human that is in a coma will still produce power. Give them all lobotomies at birth and you have no need for a matrix at all. you got a buncha people who cant think and just sit there makin energy and whatnot

Many people before us asked those questions. The only logical conclusion is that Morpheus was wrong and that his fanaticism blinded him. Nobody in Zion seems to understand the Machines real motives or ultimate goal. Maybe the Zionist's "CopperTop" theory is somekind of deny mechanism. They don't want to admit a truth that could attack their sanity, so they invented a different reason for the Matrix to exist (keeping humans as battery). Could it be also a lie spread by the Zion Council to motivate the rebels to continue the fight?

Unless we mark that one as a big writer scientific error (it could happen ), we have to look for what sort of goals the AIs would need a couple of millions (billions?) active human brains connected in a common virtual reality based on a true human era:

• - The Machines enjoy keeping humans alive in a zoo;
  - They need the brain network for a project or their everyday survival;
  - They are forced to take care of Humanity;
  - Nothing is real, nothing is important, there's a second Matrix that is emprisoning every humans and Machines alike in a sort of perverse game for the enjoyment of a third party.

The only thing special about millions of humans meeting together in VR could be that the Matrix cannot recreate lifelike human interactions. More people would reject the Matrix if everyone else they met was fake.

you bring up good points and i had come up with a few of them myself. but they still all fell so hollow. I think its either the second matrix theory OR the machines keep humans interacting for the following reason

see humans while in a virtual world belive they are in the real world. So while in the program they experience all the emotions of everyday life ie: frustration, excitement, etcetera. When exibiting these emotions int eh virtual world they carry over to the real world, so the bodies get flustered and so on and possibly produce more energy.

The reason they would all need to be networked and not all in an individual program might be the same reason a caged animal dies. I mean you can put a rat in a cage and give it everything it would ever need, but eventaully it dies from confinement and possibly lack of stimulation. It stands to reason that a human would need lots of social interaction and communication and thats why they network the brains. also its less resources for the computers. I mean they only need to make one big virtual world instead of a billion smaller virtual worlds

but again this is all a theory and it still can be disproven. I mean injections of various drugs can reproduce emotions if that were the reason for the existance of the matrix.

possibly its more cost and resource effective to keep the matrix around also

and i have a final theory that i will mention later but i wasted too much time typing this and i have to jet



fortune 500:
Strider119

[m112880]

Maybe it was done as a form of revenage. The machines kept the humans as slaves to show that they were the supirour race.

[Darksider]

Maybe it was done as a form of revenage. The machines kept the humans as slaves to show that they were the supirour race.

But no one knows they're under the machine's control.

Kinda shitty method of reveng if they don't know you're exacting it

[Diamedes]

Maybe there is something fundementally different about machine and human thought, and the matrix is just the yoke that uses human beings as a distributive processing network to apply to machine problems where a different point of view is necessary.

The website for the Matrix had short stories about it when the original film came out, and it mentioned battles with extraterrestrial threats (if taken as cannon that makes the battery idea sillier, why not just leave earth?). Perhaps some form of random creativity is useful for encounters like that, or dealing with et biologicals.

Or it could be worse. It could be a prison built by other people. I have the feeling that on some level the conclusion to the third film will dissapoint somebody when it settles the end of the second film.

[Hades]

2. Or perhaps the war ruined the Earth's ecosystem to the point where the machines made a deal with humanity to create an artificial environment to continue their way of life and as a means of shelter until the ecosystem repairs itself. To ensure the program takes, no human must know of the Matrix.

I dont know if this has been said already (im too lazy to read the whole thread) But your idea here is kind of backed up in the animatrix. In this it appears that the Humans do have a war with the AIs but after they lose the computers demand they go into the matrix and the human almost go willingly.

[Dizzy D]

Re: the short stories on the website during the first movie.

I read those (one by Neil Gaiman) and if I remember correctly those aliens were kinda like the aliens in Indepence Day: they had a big worldship behind the moon, apparantly the whole race travelled with it.

[omegaLancer]

I think we are overlooking something, maybe the original stated reason for the matrix is correct, poeple are a power source for the AI but not electrical power, but the power of DNA.

Recent development in the world of computers have actually used DNA
as computer and a power source for micro computer. It's felt that DNA base computer will one day surpass silicon base system.

Check out the following.

http://users.aol.com/ibrandt/dna_computer.html



It very likely that the birth of AI was due to such advancement in DNA base computing systems.

The war between man and machine destroyed the ecosystem so the surviving humans would be the only source of cheap easily produced DNA for the AI's to use to continue their existant.

And Nero abilities in the Martix is derived from his unique genetic makeup, he is the ultimate supercomputer, bred by the machine to add to their computing power.

[Joe Momma]

ChaosBurnFlame, two things:

1) It's spelled Zion. With a 'Z/b]'.

2) Shut the fuck up about NGE. You were wrong, live with it.

Did anyone else think it was funny that a guy who named himself ChaosBurnFlame was ridiculously thin-skinned about being burned?

-- Joe Momma

[Joe Momma]

see humans while in a virtual world belive they are in the real world. So while in the program they experience all the emotions of everyday life ie: frustration, excitement, etcetera. When exibiting these emotions int eh virtual world they carry over to the real world, so the bodies get flustered and so on and possibly produce more energy.

Given the amount one has to feed a human body relative to the energy it produces, getting people to be more active would probably worsen the ratio of resources consumed to energy produced, which already sucks.

-- Joe Momma

[Joe Momma]

Recent development in the world of computers have actually used DNA as computer and a power source for micro computer. It's felt that DNA base computer will one day surpass silicon base system.
(SNIP)
The war between man and machine destroyed the ecosystem so the surviving humans would be the only source of cheap easily produced DNA for the AI's to use to continue their existant.

Even if the machines are using DNA as part of their computational mechanisms, I'd think it'd be easier to maintain yeasts or vat-grown tumors for DNA pools than to have god-knows-how-many separate life support pods connected to a massively complicated and flawed virtual reality that has to be periodically reset as part of a massive military operation to wipe out the escapees. Cockroaches would probably be more plentiful and would defnitely be less troublesome to keep as pets.

-- Joe Momma

[Typhonis 1]

Thing is technically an AI may not have emotions save for fear which can be derived from self preservation or curiosity .Most emotions humans feel are due to reproductive matters((don`t mean to knock love but...)) and are mostly based on chemical and hormonal reactions in the human body>

[DPDarkPrimus]

Hey, robots can have chemicals in their body! Which could, hypothetically, create chemical reactions to create emotions.

[Dizzy D]

Recent development in the world of computers have actually used DNA as computer and a power source for micro computer. It's felt that DNA base computer will one day surpass silicon base system.
(SNIP)
The war between man and machine destroyed the ecosystem so the surviving humans would be the only source of cheap easily produced DNA for the AI's to use to continue their existant.

Even if the machines are using DNA as part of their computational mechanisms, I'd think it'd be easier to maintain yeasts or vat-grown tumors for DNA pools than to have god-knows-how-many separate life support pods connected to a massively complicated and flawed virtual reality that has to be periodically reset as part of a massive military operation to wipe out the escapees. Cockroaches would probably be more plentiful and would defnitely be less troublesome to keep as pets.

-- Joe Momma

Mammals have a lot of things going for them to use as batteries when compaired to cockroaches or even worse bacteria/yeasts: a mammal can survive in far more cooler climates than the others (you need cooling/heating with most of the others), you don't have the deathrates that you have with insects, just imagine putting all those plugs in a cockroach, only to change them a couple of days/weeks later. (And growing vats of yeasts/bacteria is a *bitch*, believe me I studied bioreactor-design and bioprocessengineering.) If they don't need the mental capacity of the humans for some reason then using dogs or cats would probably work better.

[Joe Momma]

Even if the machines are using DNA as part of their computational mechanisms, I'd think it'd be easier to maintain yeasts or vat-grown tumors for DNA pools than to have god-knows-how-many separate life support pods connected to a massively complicated and flawed virtual reality that has to be periodically reset as part of a massive military operation to wipe out the escapees. Cockroaches would probably be more plentiful and would defnitely be less troublesome to keep as pets.

-- Joe Momma

Mammals have a lot of things going for them to use as batteries when compaired to cockroaches or even worse bacteria/yeasts: a mammal can survive in far more cooler climates than the others (you need cooling/heating with most of the others),

You still need to maintain people at a certain range of temperature. There are plenty of other mammals that might be better for that purpose, but that leads back to the whole "there are plenty of technological means of power generation that are much more efficient than biological processes in the first place" argument that started the thread. If they need heat, using human bodies or pretty much any other living thing is a poor solution, which makes this a moot point.

BTW, if they want to use biologic processes to generate heat, how about something like a compost heap instead? It might not generate as much heat as quickly, but it might be cheaper and easier to maintain (somebody who knows something about them would have answer that question).

you don't have the deathrates that you have with insects, just imagine putting all those plugs in a cockroach, only to change them a couple of days/weeks later.

Do you actually need to plug them in if you're not trying to maintain a comatose patient in a computerized dreamworld?

Come to think of it, if the Machines are harvesting body heat, why have all of the pods exposed to open air? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have the pods inside the towers so you weren't losing heat to the environment?

(Yeah, I know the whole idea of harvesting body heat has been pretty much demolished already, I just thought I'd add some fuel to the fire. hey, if they use bodies for heat and they have a power crunch, do they just start burning people? Are "natural disasters" in fact large groups of people being fed into an incinerator for a momentary power boost? "Whoops, the factory needs to crank up Sentinel production for the Zion invasion, time for another monsoon in Bangladesh.")

(And growing vats of yeasts/bacteria is a *bitch*, believe me I studied bioreactor-design and bioprocessengineering.)

Fair enough!

If they don't need the mental capacity of the humans for some reason then using dogs or cats would probably work better.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here. This was in response to the idea of using humans as sources of DNA base pairs for molecular computers. In that case the actual mental capacity of the subject is more or less irrelevant since you're just using it as a resource pool for raw material.

-- Joe Momma

[Dizzy D]

You still need to maintain people at a certain range of temperature. There are plenty of other mammals that might be better for that purpose, but that leads back to the whole "there are plenty of technological means of power generation that are much more efficient than biological processes in the first place" argument that started the thread. If they need heat, using human bodies or pretty much any other living thing is a poor solution, which makes this a moot point.

True, my point is just that mammals already have some form if internal thermostate that has a wider range than most other organisms. (Hey, if they use birds, they get an even higher amount of energy, birds have a higher body temperature.)

BTW, if they want to use biologic processes to generate heat, how about something like a compost heap instead? It might not generate as much heat as quickly, but it might be cheaper and easier to maintain (somebody who knows something about them would have answer that question).

A compost heap is an excellent source of energy: lots of heat, ammonia which you can burn and since the Machines don't have a sense of smell anyway. Good idea !

Do you actually need to plug them in if you're not trying to maintain a comatose patient in a computerized dreamworld?

I think you would still want to extract the energy created by the nervous system, right ?

Come to think of it, if the Machines are harvesting body heat, why have all of the pods exposed to open air? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have the pods inside the towers so you weren't losing heat to the environment?

With the clouds covering the sun and without plant-life the CO2 in atmosphere would be rising, but then again why harvest the human body heat as they will probably be cooler than their surrounding, but apparantly in the Matrixverse there is no global warming ("Deep in the Earth, where it still is warm")

(Yeah, I know the whole idea of harvesting body heat has been pretty much demolished already, I just thought I'd add some fuel to the fire. hey, if they use bodies for heat and they have a power crunch, do they just start burning people? Are "natural disasters" in fact large groups of people being fed into an incinerator for a momentary power boost? "Whoops, the factory needs to crank up Sentinel production for the Zion invasion, time for another monsoon in Bangladesh.")

Uhm....interesting idea ?

There seems to be a bit of confusion here. This was in response to the idea of using humans as sources of DNA base pairs for molecular computers. In that case the actual mental capacity of the subject is more or less irrelevant since you're just using it as a resource pool for raw material.

Sorry, this was more a general response. The main idea seems to be that they need humans for something that only humans have. If they need DNA base pairs they can use whatever organisms they want.

[omegaLancer]

Well we are assuming that something other than human and simple single cell organism did survive. Much of the both movies show nothing but a cold bare landscape. I did not see even a hint of a cockroach or rat.

Even the machine use Humans proteins and byproductor of death human to feed the living humans of the matrix. Human Kind my be the ultimate survivor of all organic life that once inhabited earth.

True that you could most likely use genetically engineer micro organism for the DNA, but they still need something to survive on..

Human are the perfect host and it would be an ironic twist ( Do AI's have a sense of Irony. ) using human to create the DNA needed to maintain their function.