Dragonball Z, Ssi-ruu entech and Matrix human generators

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-06-07 02:10am

These all have the similarity of generating massive amounts of energy way disproportionate to what should come from a person. No one argues about DBZ's insanity.... it... it is. Nothing can be said about it, that is it's design.

But the Ssi-ruuk thing, which apparently sucks something out of a human, can get from that thing enough energy from it to power SW-level weaponry. No one seems to argue about this, I don't know why not.

Then, the Matrix things. People constantly complain that this is moronic. Which it is. But not any more than the above two. The 'soul-energy' idea is old, and although totally unreasonable to reality is not so much that in relation to other sci-fi.

Any thoughts on this?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-07 02:15am

Dragonball's energy from humans seems to be chi, of some kind, from what I remember. Basically it's magic, so you can pretty much make up the rules for that. Same thing for some mage in Diablo lobbing a fireball. Mana doesn't exist in real life so you can make up whatever rules you want about it.

The Matrix on the other hand says that the normal human give so much energy, some odd BTUs of heat etc. That isn't magic and doesn't rely on something that is derived from some made up energy source. It's something we know about and it isn't just made up.

That's the difference in my opinion.

I haven't heard of Ssi-ruuk.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-06-07 02:20am

Ssi-ruuk from the SW EU book 'Truce at Bakura' and also the two latest NJO books.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-06-07 04:41am

IIRC, the Ssi-ruuk entechment technology actually works by tapping into the Force through the victims.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-07 12:43pm

The entechment extracts the force abilities and sentience of the life form in question. And no. It is sub SW level. A single carrack and a rebel escort ship were sufficient to take on a Ssi Ruuvi Attack fleet.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-08 09:25pm

Dragonball harnesses stupidity as a power source, it ain't chi. Chi can be measured by the maximum possible matter that can converted to energy that is available to the subject, presuming that the subject has a more efficient conversion process than normal humans(presumably the time and effort required to learn to do this is why the majority of people in any given chi-using universe never bother). Dragonball Z fighters generate more energy(presumably. but I'm still arguing that) than can be accounted for on or in their persons. Their crap may be magic, not all supposedly chi using universes are like that however.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-06-09 11:23am

My problem with the Matrix isn't so much the amount of energy that is being regenerated, but more that the whole system wouldn't last more than 2 or 3 generations:

no sunlight->no plantlife -> no food -> no humans -> no energy source for the Matrix.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-06-09 11:41am

consequences wrote:Dragonball harnesses stupidity as a power source, it ain't chi. Chi can be measured by the maximum possible matter that can converted to energy that is available to the subject, presuming that the subject has a more efficient conversion process than normal humans(presumably the time and effort required to learn to do this is why the majority of people in any given chi-using universe never bother). Dragonball Z fighters generate more energy(presumably. but I'm still arguing that) than can be accounted for on or in their persons. Their crap may be magic, not all supposedly chi using universes are like that however.

Except there is no example of this matter/energy conversion going on in most anime. Most chi-martial arts anime doesn't have mass disappearing whenever they use their powers (Ranma, Streetfighter, ect). Really the only difference between DB and any other chi-show is a matter of scale (You could say the same between DBZ and Jedi knights as well).

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-09 01:01pm

Dizzy D wrote:My problem with the Matrix isn't so much the amount of energy that is being regenerated, but more that the whole system wouldn't last more than 2 or 3 generations:

no sunlight->no plantlife -> no food -> no humans -> no energy source for the Matrix.

It's still a stupid system, but you don't need to feed plants to humans. The machines could have used something else, or used artificial sunlight to grow plants.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-06-09 01:16pm

What else would you like to feed to humans ?
Inorganic sources: sorry we can't digest that.
Prototrophic bacteria/fungi: still need energy sources themselves.
Autotrophic bacteria: either indigestable or need sunlight to grow.

And how much energy would it cost to create that artificial sunlight for your plans?

You need a power-source for that artificial sunlight -> your powersource are the humans.

Humans -> artificial sunlight -> plants -> humans

Even if you have a 100% conversion of energy the only thing you would be doing is creating an endless loop, you don't get any extra energy out of it.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-09 01:28pm

Dizzy D wrote:What else would you like to feed to humans ?
Inorganic sources: sorry we can't digest that.
Prototrophic bacteria/fungi: still need energy sources themselves.
Autotrophic bacteria: either indigestable or need sunlight to grow.

And how much energy would it cost to create that artificial sunlight for your plans?

You need a power-source for that artificial sunlight -> your powersource are the humans.

Humans -> artificial sunlight -> plants -> humans

Even if you have a 100% conversion of energy the only thing you would be doing is creating an endless loop, you don't get any extra energy out of it.

I never said it didn't. I just said that plants aren't the only source of food for humans. Besides it even says in the movie that the free humans eat a protein created by bacteria. Not plants.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-06-09 01:46pm

The protein-producing bacteria themselves would still need an energy-source.

The humans can no choice but to waste their energy by using it to cultivating bacteria for feeding humans. (And they surely would realise that their lifetime is limited on Earth, unless they can remove those clouds and recreate some kind of photosynthetic lifeform.)

The machines OTOH need all the energy they can get, why would they channel it through a human first, who will waste a lot of that energy on simply keeping his own body operational ? Why not use the food that they humans eat as fuel for the machines ?

I admit that I oversimplified things when I labelled plants as being the sole and direct food source for humans, when I should have said phototrophic lifeforms, but the fact remains:
Energy In=Energy Out and solar energy is the primary source of energy for life on Earth.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-09 04:22pm

Actually they could always have space stations above the Earth's atmosphere growing plants. But that's just supposition and needless complexity.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-09 08:21pm

You convert matter to energy all of the time, to keep you alive, the difference between dbz and other series is that in 99% of other series the energy could potentially be generated by the individual without resorting to the 'Its magic copout'.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-09 08:32pm

Dizzy D wrote:What else would you like to feed to humans ?
Inorganic sources: sorry we can't digest that.
Prototrophic bacteria/fungi: still need energy sources themselves.
Autotrophic bacteria: either indigestable or need sunlight to grow.

And how much energy would it cost to create that artificial sunlight for your plans?

You need a power-source for that artificial sunlight -> your powersource are the humans.

Humans -> artificial sunlight -> plants -> humans

Even if you have a 100% conversion of energy the only thing you would be doing is creating an endless loop, you don't get any extra energy out of it.

I watched with horror the precision as they liquified the dead, and fed them to the living- Morpheus, The Matrix

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-06-09 08:34pm

By guess:

In "Reloaded," Neo has a conversation with a councilmember in front of several huge machines.

My guess is that those machines are the remnants of a old human or machine base, and some of them can generate the power needed to grow bacteria or algae for consumption.

Dizzy D · Post by **Dizzy D** » 2003-06-10 10:11am

YT300000 wrote: I watched with horror the precision as they liquified the dead, and fed them to the living- Morpheus, The Matrix

Let's ignore for moment the fact that even in that way, you would miss several essential nutrients: how many people would a baby have to eat to become a full grown adult ? It would be at least more than 1, right ? Let's take the really, really optimistic view (for the machines at last) that it takes 2 humans to feed 1 baby for a lifetime. In that case you have your initial population of 5 billion people, you feed those to 2.5 billion people, you feed those to 1.25 billion people etc. Just imagine what this does to your power-output.

SAMAS wrote: By guess:

In "Reloaded," Neo has a conversation with a councilmember in front of several huge machines.

My guess is that those machines are the remnants of a old human or machine base, and some of them can generate the power needed to grow bacteria or algae for consumption.

Which makes sense for Zion to do: they have to waste energy to feed the humans, cause human survival is their ultimate goal. I'm not arguing that, I am arguing the Matrix itself. In the Matrix, the ultimate goal is to get energy for the Machines. If the Machines grew bacteria and algae it would be a waste for energy for them. Even if you have 100% conversion as I said, you would still be using the same amount of energy you generated to feed your humans. You can't get more energy than you put into the system.

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-06-12 01:37pm

consequences wrote:You convert matter to energy all of the time, to keep you alive, the difference between dbz and other series is that in 99% of other series the energy could potentially be generated by the individual without resorting to the 'Its magic copout'.

Huh? Which series can do that other than maybe Cowboy Bebop or other realistic anime?

Ranma 1/2? *Looks at Herb shatter a moutain with ki, Cologne create a 100 foot tall waterspout by twirling her staff, Ranma and Ryouga throwing energy blasts with the force of a truck at each other for extended periods of time* Er, nope.

Yu Yu Hakusho? *Watches Yusuke take out a nearby mountain range with his Spirit Gun* Don't think so.

Rurouni Kenshin? *sees Saitou stab something with enough force to cause a reinforced armor door to explode outwards, and Soujirou having enough leg strength to run at speeds so fast as to appear invisible (that's the stated explainaition for the Shukuchi)* Not that one...

Marvel Comics, perhaps? *notices Iron Fist blowing up a city and Temugin tearing through Iron Man's armor with his bare hands* ...Next.

DC Comics? *Sees Karate Kid deflect the charge of someone moving at many times lightspeed, Batman generate enough force to turn a statue into gravel and one of Superman's one-shot villains having enough ki to amaze Clark (someone who can go at .99c inside an atmosphere) with his speed* No comment.

Star Wars, then? *Wonders where exactly Palpatine is hiding all those generators on his person* Maybe you meant the EU? *watches Exar Kun blow up a star* Comics perhaps? *considers how much plutonium Palpatine takes with his fiber as I watch him release multi-megatons of raw power to blow up a starship*

As for the "It's magic" argument, that's because, for all intents and purposes, in all the legends and stories, in all the modern anime, manga and literature, ki basically *IS* magic. In Journey to the West, the Monkey King (Sun Wu'kong, known in Japan as Son Goku, and the partial source for DBZ's main character's powers and features) was able to generate hundreds of clones equal to him in strength, shrug off multiple mountains effortlessly, jump over a 100,000 miles (IIRC) in one somersault, and fly from one end of the universe to the other in a few minutes/seconds. In real life, as far as is known to us from our extremely limited understanding of the laws of physics, the human body can't generate anywhere near enough heat to power a tornado if someone makes them run in a circle and then throws some liquid nitrogen into the center of said circle. When's the last time you've heard of Jackie Chan getting pissed off and causing every flame in the room to burst into a hundred foot tall pillar of fire, or even just start glowing a bit (no, it doesn't count if he just set himself on fire somehow)? In DBZ, it's even more primal than magic, since it can be used to resist and power magic (Kami-sama, Dende, Piccolo, Majin Buu, Bibadi, Babadi, Dabura, etc....).

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-06-12 03:24pm

Crap, forget ki/chi/magic. I'm trying to think of *any* fictional universe that has lightspeed or greater capabilities that isn't mangling conservation of energy and the theory of relativity beyond all recognition... Unless hypermatter has infinite amounts of energy, and SW tech has the capability to use *all* of that energy at once, then they're top speed would be .9999c, unless they somehow made their ships (or at least each molecule of the ship) have mass that's roughly equivalent to a photon. And then they'd need to generate about that much power to counter the inertia that should turn their crew into so much compressed matter...

Jeez, DCU breaks one of their *own* laws of physics with FTL ships, since all objects that break lightspeed without some abnormal connection to the Speed Force are supposed to be absorbed into said source of infinite energy and all around plot device...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-12 03:30pm

neoolong wrote:
It's still a stupid system, but you don't need to feed plants to humans. The machines could have used something else, or used artificial sunlight to grow plants.

That would suck up more power then the humans would produce

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-12 03:31pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
neoolong wrote:
It's still a stupid system, but you don't need to feed plants to humans. The machines could have used something else, or used artificial sunlight to grow plants.
That would suck up more power then the humans would produce

Yeah. But I'm just saying that plants aren't necessarily needed.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-06-12 03:49pm

IMHO DBZ chi power is derived from Taoist belief that once you become enlightened you can gain great power, fly, use your chi to affect the physical world. It's the whole trancendence thing.
Basically it's goku on a lotus blossum.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-13 08:03pm

So all of DBZ was a bad trip on Roshi's part, hah, I was right. But that would mean that Saiyajins should have no real advantage over humans the way you describe it, which is clearly not the case.

And for the Drunkard Kid, take all of the food that ranma eats, convert it to energy. Since 1 pound equals the equivalent of 'lots of energy', the destruction of mountains is not a ludicrous feat. For the other side, take all of the food that Goku eats. Unless this is signifigantly greater mass than the first Death Star(not sure of the exact figure, but you get the idea), then he is not producing the energy out of his own resources. Unless the energy frtee-floating in the area is producing the same gravitational attraction as the moon, he isn't drawing it from the environment.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-06-13 08:56pm

consequences wrote:So all of DBZ was a bad trip on Roshi's part, hah, I was right. But that would mean that Saiyajins should have no real advantage over humans the way you describe it, which is clearly not the case.

Then you add in the Saiyans' natural abilities. A highter base strength and toughness, higher natural Ki level, a possible genetic love of fighting, Oozaru transformation with tail, and the abiity to massively increase their Ki upon recovering from any injury. You beat the crap out of a Saiyan, and unless you have a vast power advangate over him, he will come back and stomp you into the ground when he recovers. If you kill a Saiyan, and he somehow comes back(like the use of the Dragon Balls, for instance), it's even worse.

And for the Drunkard Kid, take all of the food that ranma eats, convert it to energy. Since 1 pound equals the equivalent of 'lots of energy', the destruction of mountains is not a ludicrous feat. For the other side, take all of the food that Goku eats. Unless this is signifigantly greater mass than the first Death Star(not sure of the exact figure, but you get the idea), then he is not producing the energy out of his own resources. Unless the energy frtee-floating in the area is producing the same gravitational attraction as the moon, he isn't drawing it from the environment.

Ummm... no. Even if Ranma ate nothing but high-calorie foods, he still would not have the energy to vape a house, much less a mountiainside.

Then there's the fact that Goku out-eats Ranma by a large margin.

Oh, and let's not forget Lina Inverse, who can cast the magic equivalent to a tac nuke.

Or better yet, Sailor Moon, the fourth mega-eating Anime Hero(ine), a.k.a. Miss-Reset-Reality-if-She-Wants-To.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-13 09:06pm

I'm arguing for chi/ki here, not series that claim to use magic, Samas, please don't do that.

I am not talking about Calories, I'm talking about near total energy conversion. Think energy results from matter/antimatter detonation.

Think about it, when have ytou ever seen a character in these series taking a dump?