According to this, the US is broke...

[Stuart Mackey]

Now you're speaking my language. That's why I have a nest egg which will hopefully be enough for me to retire on if I can leave it untouched. Unfortunately, a lot of lower income people are essentially forced into dependence of social security, because after having 15% of your paycheck removed (7.5% directly, 7.5% indirectly), it's often difficult to invest in another retirement fund that will actually generate wealth.

If that is the case, why the issue? is this fund poorly administered? What you have should be ok providing that such funds are run correctly. If your people have to pay this money then they are entitled to it and are entitled to it being administreed properly. If its not, then heads should roll.

And yes, if you are on a low income it is difficult to put money into a good retirement fund.

[Darth Wong]

Exactly. For a nation with the capabilities its almost impossible to become a third world nation..it would take a couple of generations of Mugabe level ineptitude, incompetency and sheer stupidity to reduse the US to the third world.

You would also need some mammoth event which destroys industry and infrastructure, such as a civil war.

[Stuart Mackey]

Exactly. For a nation with the capabilities its almost impossible to become a third world nation..it would take a couple of generations of Mugabe level ineptitude, incompetency and sheer stupidity to reduse the US to the third world.

You would also need some mammoth event which destroys industry and infrastructure, such as a civil war.

I am not sure how to answer this in relation to the US, but I keep thinking of the fundie brigades ....

[Joe]

"Poorly administered" doesn't even begin to describe the way the government has managed the Social Security Trust Fund. Usually, around 75-80% (I think, thought my numbers may be off) of the Social Security Tax revenue taken in annually goes to current recipients, with the remainder being siphoned off by politicians (while it should remain in the Trust Fund) to pay for stupid pork-barrel projects. The debt owed to the Social Security fund is then basically written off as an unrecorded liability, and is not included in most budget reports (the reason why the Clinton Administration was able to project those imaginary surpluses in the late years of the administration). So the Social Security Trust Fund, which the government has forced virtually all but the most wealthy of us into dependence on, has no real assets, just a bunch of IOUs.

Of course, even if the system were managed perfectly we'd only be talking about a very unimpressive 2 percent rate of return on the "investment."

[Joe]

Exactly. For a nation with the capabilities its almost impossible to become a third world nation..it would take a couple of generations of Mugabe level ineptitude, incompetency and sheer stupidity to reduse the US to the third world.

You would also need some mammoth event which destroys industry and infrastructure, such as a civil war.

Or a Ralph Nader Presidency (it could happen!).

[Stuart Mackey]

"Poorly administered" doesn't even begin to describe the way the government has managed the Social Security Trust Fund. Usually, around 75-80% (I think, thought my numbers may be off) of the Social Security Tax revenue taken in annually goes to current recipients, with the remainder being siphoned off by politicians (while it should remain in the Trust Fund) to pay for stupid pork-barrel projects. The debt owed to the Social Security fund is then basically written off as an unrecorded liability, and is not included in most budget reports (the reason why the Clinton Administration was able to project those imaginary surpluses in the late years of the administration). So the Social Security Trust Fund, which the government has forced virtually all but the most wealthy of us into dependence on, has no real assets, just a bunch of IOUs.

Of course, even if the system were managed perfectly we'd only be talking about a very unimpressive 2 percent rate of return on the "investment."

Jesus..you poor bastards. Is there no accoutability over there? is there proper accounting?.
Also, why is it not being run by properly qualified and experienced fund managers? ..oops silly question..that would get in the way of pork spending..

[Sea Skimmer]

You would also need some mammoth event which destroys industry and infrastructure, such as a civil war.

Or a Ralph Nader Presidency (it could happen!).

I'll address that by repeating what Wong said, "mammoth event which destroys industry and infrastructure."

[SPOOFE]

You're trying to tell me that the US somehow managed to accumulate a debt that is greater than the total Gross Domestic Product of the entire country from the past four years combined?

Yeah, right. Somebody would have noticed that Bush was issuing diamond bullets to our troops, and outfitting our tanks with solid gold armor.

[Joe]

Not debt. There's the national debt, and then there's the unfunded liability that comes from social programs, primarily Social Security and Medicare. Debt and liability aren't always the same thing.

[MKSheppard]

You're trying to tell me that the US somehow managed to accumulate a debt that is greater than the total Gross Domestic Product of the entire country from the past four years combined?

They've had fifty years to do this you know...

[Joe]

My god, this is a depressing thread. It's no fun to be reminded about how much life is going to suck as I grow older.

[Rubberanvil]

My god, this is a depressing thread. It's no fun to be reminded about how much life is going to suck as I grow older.

Still have time to find another suitable country to move to. Through being an American there isn't that many good choices out there.

[Stuart Mackey]

My god, this is a depressing thread. It's no fun to be reminded about how much life is going to suck as I grow older.

Now you know why it is nessary to have a balanced budget, and one with a heathy, real, surplus.
Think of it this way, if you ran your houshold budget like the us runs the government your house would be sold by the bank and the debt collectors would be breaking your legs and repossesing your sterio and super yacht.

[MKSheppard]

Think of it this way, if you ran your houshold budget like the us runs the government your house would be sold by the bank and the debt collectors would be breaking your legs and repossesing your sterio and super yacht.

Stop sounding like a heartless right wing whacko conservative!!!!

[Stuart Mackey]

Think of it this way, if you ran your houshold budget like the us runs the government your house would be sold by the bank and the debt collectors would be breaking your legs and repossesing your sterio and super yacht.

Stop sounding like a heartless right wing whacko conservative!!!!

!!
Whats amusing is that even the left wing Labour government in NZ is fiscaly dry and I vote Labour
You have to ask what the hell is wrong with american politians?..aside from the usual things..

[RedImperator]

Think of it this way, if you ran your houshold budget like the us runs the government your house would be sold by the bank and the debt collectors would be breaking your legs and repossesing your sterio and super yacht.

Stop sounding like a heartless right wing whacko conservative!!!!

!!
Whats amusing is that even the left wing Labour government in NZ is fiscaly dry and I vote Labour
You have to ask what the hell is wrong with american politians?..aside from the usual things..

Somewhere along the lines, a very large group of people in this country decided they were entitled to free stuff from the government, damn the costs. It doesn't help when bozos like Bill Clinton get elected and perfect the politics of special interests--by the end of that administration, practically EVERYBODY had been pigeonholed into a special interest that deserved government attention. Beats the shit out of me how to fix it, other than a giant depression where people get used to having squat.

[Joe]

It happened in the 30s and was reaffirmed in the 60s, the sense of entitlement that Americans have. There was sort of a turn against it in the early 90s but that never really panned out.

[Stuart Mackey]

Stop sounding like a heartless right wing whacko conservative!!!!

!!
Whats amusing is that even the left wing Labour government in NZ is fiscaly dry and I vote Labour
You have to ask what the hell is wrong with american politians?..aside from the usual things..

Somewhere along the lines, a very large group of people in this country decided they were entitled to free stuff from the government, damn the costs. It doesn't help when bozos like Bill Clinton get elected and perfect the politics of special interests--by the end of that administration, practically EVERYBODY had been pigeonholed into a special interest that deserved government attention. Beats the shit out of me how to fix it, other than a giant depression where people get used to having squat.

Ahhh, This is great stuff..well not for America I guess but its really amusing to a guy who lives in a social democracy
We realised after 1984 that, yes, unemployment benifits, free primary and emergency heath care and hevily subsidised unversity education are great and should be there for everyone.
We also learned that to provide these things that we must have free trade and run budget surpluses with very tight controll over spending, ie: no pork.

[Stuart Mackey]

It happened in the 30s and was reaffirmed in the 60s, the sense of entitlement that Americans have. There was sort of a turn against it in the early 90s but that never really panned out.

Nothing wrong with some entitlement in certain situations, but you have to be able to pay for it..and budget deficiets dont count as paying for it.

[RedImperator]

Ahhh, This is great stuff..well not for America I guess but its really amusing to a guy who lives in a social democracy
We realised after 1984 that, yes, unemployment benifits, free primary and emergency heath care and hevily subsidised unversity education are great and should be there for everyone.
We also learned that to provide these things that we must have free trade and run budget surpluses with very tight controll over spending, ie: no pork.

Yuk it up, kiwi. If everything goes to shit here, guess where those of us who can get the hell out will be going. If you think American TOURISTS are bad, wait until you get a country stuffed full of American expatriates.

[Stuart Mackey]

Ahhh, This is great stuff..well not for America I guess but its really amusing to a guy who lives in a social democracy
We realised after 1984 that, yes, unemployment benifits, free primary and emergency heath care and hevily subsidised unversity education are great and should be there for everyone.
We also learned that to provide these things that we must have free trade and run budget surpluses with very tight controll over spending, ie: no pork.

Yuk it up, kiwi. If everything goes to shit here, guess where those of us who can get the hell out will be going. If you think American TOURISTS are bad, wait until you get a country stuffed full of American expatriates.

Fuck.
Ahh well, the way I see it if you can afford to move here lock stock and barrel then you must have a functioning brain, all other issues will be set right with a few 'words in your ear' and some intimidation.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Jesus..you poor bastards. Is there no accoutability over there? is there proper accounting?.
Also, why is it not being run by properly qualified and experienced fund managers? ..oops silly question..that would get in the way of pork spending..

Senior citizens vote in large numbers, and of course they never will vote for any changes in Soc Security. They system will simply collapse on day. Young people like Durran or even me, bitch about the system but nodoby can do anyting about it, expect save for your own private retirement plan.

Where I live the ticket to retirement is and has been home ownership. Local tax laws keep prop tax low for people who are long term owners.

[Xon]

My god, this is a depressing thread. It's no fun to be reminded about how much life is going to suck as I grow older.

Now you know why it is nessary to have a balanced budget, and one with a heathy, real, surplus.

Well Australia seems to have been running a real surplus for the last few years.

And with Labour not gettting in in at least another 4 years(at the federal level, also Labour in WA looks like it is going to lose the next state election), the economy looks to be going strong.

And we dont have those crazy litagation laws in Australia like they do in the USA.

[Stuart Mackey]

Jesus..you poor bastards. Is there no accoutability over there? is there proper accounting?.
Also, why is it not being run by properly qualified and experienced fund managers? ..oops silly question..that would get in the way of pork spending..

Senior citizens vote in large numbers, and of course they never will vote for any changes in Soc Security. They system will simply collapse on day. Young people like Durran or even me, bitch about the system but nodoby can do anyting about it, expect save for your own private retirement plan.

Well maybe they will vote for better a magement of it if they realise that the politicans are crippling it. Thing is that if they pay into it, they are entitled to its promiced benifits.

Where I live the ticket to retirement is and has been home ownership. Local tax laws keep prop tax low for people who are long term owners.

Similar to here..of course we dont have property tax..other than council rates..which are on the up and up

[MKSheppard]

Well maybe they will vote for better a magement of it if they realise that the politicans are crippling it. Thing is that if they pay into it, they are entitled to its promiced benifits.

Thanks for the laugh