Iran's fighter (split)

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-09 05:36pm

Iran is working on a third-generation fighter? You mean like the Mirage III?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-10 03:46am

Axis Kast wrote:Iran is working on a third-generation fighter? You mean like the Mirage III?

I generally don't like the 'generation' thing because I see it as marketing BS, but Iran is developing a fourth generation 'plus' fighter, tech wise- I think it's in the lightweight class, and is oddly similar in design to a Mikoyan proposal, with very distinctive wings. Unconfirmed reports are that Mikoyan is cooperating with it's design.

Model

Cockpit mockup

It's basically an F-16 type aircraft.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-06-10 04:51am

Vympel wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Iran is working on a third-generation fighter? You mean like the Mirage III?
I generally don't like the 'generation' thing because I see it as marketing BS, but Iran is developing a fourth generation 'plus' fighter, tech wise- I think it's in the lightweight class, and is oddly similar in design to a Mikoyan proposal, with very distinctive wings. Unconfirmed reports are that Mikoyan is cooperating with it's design.

Model

Cockpit mockup

It's basically an F-16 type aircraft.

Looks quite snazzy..I wonder if the performance/capabilities are in the F16 range though...?

Fixed for ya- Vympel

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-10 05:36am

Split from the Bush fail thread.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-10 08:38am

Vympel wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Iran is working on a third-generation fighter? You mean like the Mirage III?
I generally don't like the 'generation' thing because I see it as marketing BS, but Iran is developing a fourth generation 'plus' fighter, tech wise- I think it's in the lightweight class, and is oddly similar in design to a Mikoyan proposal, with very distinctive wings. Unconfirmed reports are that Mikoyan is cooperating with it's design.

Model

Cockpit mockup

It's basically an F-16 type aircraft.

It’s only forth generation plus or whatever if you accept the five or six generation system now being thrown around. I'll keep four thank you. Mirage III is second generation as I recall. Its the F-16/15/MiG-29 and friends that are the third generation.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-10 09:10am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Iran is working on a third-generation fighter? You mean like the Mirage III?
I generally don't like the 'generation' thing because I see it as marketing BS, but Iran is developing a fourth generation 'plus' fighter, tech wise- I think it's in the lightweight class, and is oddly similar in design to a Mikoyan proposal, with very distinctive wings. Unconfirmed reports are that Mikoyan is cooperating with it's design.

Model

Cockpit mockup

It's basically an F-16 type aircraft.
It’s only forth generation plus or whatever if you accept the five or six generation system now being thrown around. I'll keep four thank you. Mirage III is second generation as I recall. Its the F-16/15/MiG-29 and friends that are the third generation.

The Raptor isn't fifth generation? What's the generation criteria anyway? That's why I don't use it.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-10 09:23am

Vympel wrote:
The Raptor isn't fifth generation? What's the generation criteria anyway? That's why I don't use it.

It is if you considered there to be a fifth generation.

Saber, Starfighter, Phantom, Eagle, JSF, Raptor is basically the five generation system and seems to be the most common. Sometimes a sixth generation gets added on to cover future concepts. I don’t really like it, though as you’ve pointed out its all fairly stupid.

Four generation goes pretty much Saber/Starfighter, Phantom, Eagle, JSF/Raptor. And three generation is basically, Saber/Starfighter, Phantom/Eagle, JSF/Raptor. With this most basic of systems you could pretty much say guns, missiles, stealth as a way to divide up what goes where.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-10 02:28pm

Does Iran have the capability do this, or is there Russian help?

If the Chinese can't come up with something amazing, how will Iran?

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-06-10 02:34pm

They can still make new flying carpet.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-06-10 02:37pm

It takes more than an advanced fighter or two to make a competent air force.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-10 02:47pm

I also heard Iran was making an upgrade for the F-14A. Is this true?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-06-10 02:55pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:It takes more than an advanced fighter or two to make a competent air force.

Agreed. With out an AWACS they are gonna die against the USAF. And even with an AWACS they are gonna die against the US cause chances are their pilots are not as well trained. Same goes for going against USN and USMC pilots. They are really fucked when USAF, USN, and USMC pilots team up on em.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-10 03:34pm

Axis Kast wrote:Does Iran have the capability do this, or is there Russian help?

If the Chinese can't come up with something amazing, how will Iran?

Iran has the capability to design and manufacture such an aircraft on its own. They have the technology and the money. The Chinese are just morons and simply never had the drive to develop there own aircraft before 1988. Since then they've expended huge amounts of time and money importing components like engines and radar in an attempt to speed up the process. But have seemed to manage to keep themselves behind by constantly changing requirements. There JH-7 attack aircraft started out as an attempt to copy the F-15E...

I also heard Iran was making an upgrade for the F-14A. Is this true?

They've made some improvements and swapped out many components in favor of domestically built ones or parts more easily imported. But they have not engaged in any really significant upgrade program. Only around 25 are left in service IIRC.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-10 03:37pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:It takes more than an advanced fighter or two to make a competent air force.

Actually I'd say Iran already has a competent air force that is limited by equipment more then men. There performance in the Iran Iraq war was excellent. Especially when you consider that there opposition was able to import several hundred new fighters during the war.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-10 03:46pm

They developed upgrades on our best interceptor to date?!

And when did they build this technology base?!

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-10 03:52pm

Axis Kast wrote:They developed upgrades on our best interceptor to date?!

And when did they build this technology base?!

By upgrades I mean pylons and wiring to use Russian weapons and other such things. I don't think they've changed the radar or updated the engines. Iran had a developing technology base in 1979, and decades of isolation forced them to expand it. Since the end of the Iran-Iraq war they've had a fair amount of money of spend and it's gone into infrastructure.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-06-10 03:59pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Actually I'd say Iran already has a competent air force that is limited by equipment more then men. There performance in the Iran Iraq war was excellent. Especially when you consider that there opposition was able to import several hundred new fighters during the war.

Of course they did very well against Iraq twenty years ago, but this was because of their U.S. made aircraft, air defences, and U.S. training received during the Shah's tenure. To my knowledge the haven't been upgrading at pace with the rest of the world. Plus, as we all know, Iraq's air force is nothing to brag about. All they're good for against a western power is a good target practice.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-10 05:56pm

Axis Kast wrote:They developed upgrades on our best interceptor to date?!

And when did they build this technology base?!

Bear in mind that these are first-flight F-14As we're talking about, not nice new(ish) -14Ds.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-10 06:23pm

True.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-10 06:40pm

Shouldn't this be HAB now?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-10 06:56pm

Durran Korr wrote:Shouldn't this be HAB now?

So that the person who asked the question and remains an active participant can't see it? Excellent reasoning.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-10 07:01pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Shouldn't this be HAB now?
So that the person who asked the question and remains an active participant can't see it? Excellent reasoning.

Sorry, I thought Axis was HAB. He should be, he seems well-versed in this stuff.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-10 07:10pm

HAB?

I'm just so surprised that Iran could do this.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 02:11am

It's with some Russian help.

Compare to the MiG I-2000 concept:

CG concept art

I suspect it'll have Russian radar and the suspicions are already that it'll have a Russian turbofan, probably with TVC. Venik's site (just don't go there for coalition casualty reports) says it'll be an RD-33 derivative- but I highly doubt that, even the most advanced VK-10M being developed by Klimov is 113kN with afterburning- the fighter will have to be pretty light to have a thrust-to-weight ratio in excess of unity for just one engine to be useful.

The F-14As in Iranian service were sabotaged, making them unable to employ the AIM-54 Phoenix. The aircraft are very old, I doubt they could keep them serviceable for much longer. If they want a capable interceptor they should purchase one of the advanced MiG-31 variants offered for sale. It'll cost em a pretty penny though.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-06-11 02:12am

Axis Kast wrote:HAB?

I'm just so surprised that Iran could do this.

Why are you so surprised?