Just Watched Redemption!

[Crazedwraith]

While watching this a few things occured to me:
1) Why couldn't the war just head straight up beyond the range of the grid and simply go over it?
2) At the end of the episode worf requests to "return to duty" Which seems an odd turn of phrase to use considering he resigned from starfleet and didn't take a leave of absense. Surely sumthing along the lines of "i request to re-join star-fleet" would have bin more appariate?

Any ideas people?

[Ted C]

While watching this a few things occured to me:
1) Why couldn't the war just head straight up beyond the range of the grid and simply go over it?

We can only guess that the "net" was large enough that going around would have taken an unacceptably long period of time.

2) At the end of the episode worf requests to "return to duty" Which seems an odd turn of phrase to use considering he resigned from starfleet and didn't take a leave of absense. Surely sumthing along the lines of "i request to re-join star-fleet" would have bin more appariate?

Perhaps he was counting on Picard never having gotten around to filing his resignation.

[El Moose Monstero]

Seems like an absurdly British thing to do, witness David Jason in 'touch of frost' resigning and Mullet never actually filing it. Think it might have happened in Morse as well, not sure...

[Crazedwraith]

Seems like an absurdly British thing to do, witness David Jason in 'touch of frost' resigning and Mullet never actually filing it. Think it might have happened in Morse as well, not sure...

Yep and in the "X-Wing 4: The Bacta War" as well. But better keep that quiet this is PST after all

[BenRG]

I must admit that I've never been able to follow Picard's reason for not helping Gowron (apart from on aesthetic grounds). I understand the concepts of the Prime Directive and non-interference in other cultures' evolution, but there are some problems with that reasoning.

Most important of these is that the Klingons aren't some pre-warp culture that they have to protect from contamination. They are an interstellar civilisation with comparable (or even more advanced in some ways) technology to the Federation. Gowron was the legally elected leader of this nation, which was also an ally of the Federation. Further, the Federation was treaty-bound (and honour-bound) to aid the Klingons against threats to their security. There was no reason for Picard not to drop the Saucer Section off on the edge of the Q'onos system and then come charging back in the Stardrive Section and blow up that pitiful pair of BoPs threatening Gowron's flagship.

The only explanation I can think of is this: Picard decided that he didn't know who was going to win the Civil War and it was in the Federation's best interests to stay neutral. Then they could tell whoever won, with a straight face, "Hey, we were rooting for you all the time, you know." Based on this, I am not surprised that the Klingons decided not to let the Federation know that they were planning on invading the Cardassian Union about two or three years later. They knew that the Feddies were untrustworthy and would bail if they didn't like the odds.

[MrAnderson]

Starfleet seems to have a rule against interfering with anything that is a purely internal issue in a foreign government.

This should have meant though that Starfleet was no longer bound by this once they determined that the Romulans were involved.

[NecronLord]

There are reserve activation clauses (TMP). You don't resign from starfleet, you go into reserve..

EDIT: Where were the thousands of ships of the klingon fleet?

[BenRG]

Starfleet seems to have a rule against interfering with anything that is a purely internal issue in a foreign government.

This is true, and probably a good thing as it stops the Federation from forcing 'regime change' on small powers whose governments distress them. However, the Klingons don't need to be protected from the Federation's interference, well-meaning or not.

Let's face it, this wasn't interference in another culture's internal affairs except by the most radical possible definition of the term. The leader of the Klingon government requested the Federation's aid in putting down the Duras family's rebellion. This is something that a good ally would do. It is just that the Federation of the Next Generation century seems to have this attitude that it is too perfect and holy to struggle in the mud like lesser civilisations. It isn't up to them to solve the children's problems for them, they have to learn to look after themselves. I might be prejudiced, I know, but this particular aspect of the Federation's hands-off policy really makes my blood boil sometimes.

[MrAnderson]

This is true, and probably a good thing as it stops the Federation from forcing 'regime change' on small powers whose governments distress them. However, the Klingons don't need to be protected from the Federation's interference, well-meaning or not.

Let's face it, this wasn't interference in another culture's internal affairs except by the most radical possible definition of the term. The leader of the Klingon government requested the Federation's aid in putting down the Duras family's rebellion. This is something that a good ally would do. It is just that the Federation of the Next Generation century seems to have this attitude that it is too perfect and holy to struggle in the mud like lesser civilisations. It isn't up to them to solve the children's problems for them, they have to learn to look after themselves. I might be prejudiced, I know, but this particular aspect of the Federation's hands-off policy really makes my blood boil sometimes.

One thing to consider. This appeared to be a fairly standard Klingon struggle for power. Violence and or violent overthrow is the normal process for power changes in the Klingon Empire much the way elections are the normal process in the USA.

So when Ghowron made the request Picard saw no reason to offer up aid. Now if the normal process of regime change in the Empire was via elections and the Duras Family was being unusual and acting like terrorists in their bid for power then Picard would have certainly stepped in. But they were't, they were "playing by the rules" more or less in their bid for power.

Does that make sense?

[BenRG]

One thing to consider. This appeared to be a fairly standard Klingon struggle for power. Violence and or violent overthrow is the normal process for power changes in the Klingon Empire much the way elections are the normal process in the USA.

So when Ghowron made the request Picard saw no reason to offer up aid. Now if the normal process of regime change in the Empire was via elections and the Duras Family was being unusual and acting like terrorists in their bid for power then Picard would have certainly stepped in. But they were't, they were "playing by the rules" more or less in their bid for power.

Does that make sense?

The worrying thing is that it does. However, whether or not this was standard procedure for the Klingons at a time of succession, the fact remains that the legitimate government had requested help from an ally. Furthermore, the Federation (in the form of Captain Picard) had greased the wheels of Gowron's ascession to power. All in all, it was (at the very best) bad form and could possibly (at the very worst) have completely destroyed the Federation/Klingon alliance by not offering the help requested. You know how hot the Klingons are about their ethical code and 'honour'.

[Isolder74]

You know in a way Picard did give Federation Aid to Gowron in the form of the blockade. Gowron was duely elected as leader of the council and the Duros Sister's claims and request that Duros' "son" be given the position was rejected by the counsil. After that point it was no longer legal and became a open rebellion against the legal government. Basically if they didn't get what they wanted they would take it anyway.

One note if they were so dependant on the supplies from the Romulons then they couldn't have had any planets or bases in their force. The details don't make it clear enough either. Is the only assests they had were a fleet of warships? If so how did they expect to take on the government that has control of the capitol and most of the production and food growing capability?

[BenRG]

One note if they were so dependant on the supplies from the Romulons then they couldn't have had any planets or bases in their force. The details don't make it clear enough either. Is the only assests they had were a fleet of warships? If so how did they expect to take on the government that has control of the capitol and most of the production and food growing capability?

The Duras clan must have had worlds of its' own to act as base facilities. We know that the Klingon Empire is set up like a feudal state, with certain families having autocratic control over several systems, the number of which relates to the honour and favour in which the family is viewed by the Council. No doubt, the rich and honoured Duras family had several entire sectors under their control to act as a population and logistic base.

Nonetheless, given the level of support that the Duras Clan required from the Romulans, they couldn't have controlled many shipyards. Nor could they have had control of many industrial facilities. Based on this, shouldn't the Federation have thought it a little bit suspicious that the Duras faction could continue fielding ships and heavy weapons at a rate far greater than their production capacity suggested was possible? Then there is the personnel issue. I'm sure a lot of the Duras' 'Klingon' ships had a large number of Romulan 'advisors' on board (perhaps the vast majority of the crew) to make up for shortfalls in the Duras' own population base. The number of fried Romulan corpses at battle sites should have raised a few eyebrows when the reports arrived in San Fransisco.

Unless you believe that Starfleet Intelligence and the Federation's civillian intelligence agancies were totally incompetent, the only explanation is that the Federation knew that the Duras Sisters were the Romulans' ringers. The Council must have decided to sit this one out (largely because they were still putting the fleet back together after the fiasco of the Borg incursion a year previously) and hoped that claiming to have been on the eventual winners' side all along would save the Federation/Klingon alliance. Unfortunately for them (or fortunately, from a position of hindsight), Captain Picard had second thoughts and wouldn't leave matters alone.

[Isolder74]

My point is that even with one planet under their control they should have had more than enough food and supplies that the Romulon aid would have been fluff. If they had a desert world similer to Tattooine they could have had plenty of raw materials and I find it odd that they seemed to have no production facilities of their own as when thier Romulon supplies was cut off they caved real quick.

[MrAnderson]

My point is that even with one planet under their control they should have had more than enough food and supplies that the Romulon aid would have been fluff. If they had a desert world similer to Tattooine they could have had plenty of raw materials and I find it odd that they seemed to have no production facilities of their own as when thier Romulon supplies was cut off they caved real quick.

For whatever reason the Duros family had the fighting forces but not the supplies to keep them in line. Maybe the Duros surged their capability to produce ships for the civil war but this put them above and beyond their material producing ability.

This shortfall was met by Romulan supplies. Of course the Romulans wanted to keep the Duros family on a very short leash. So they only supplied enough supplies to keep them going. Not enough to allow them to build up any sort of strategic surplus.

[Death from the Sea]

EDIT: Where were the thousands of ships of the klingon fleet?

Good question. Crappy writing is the best explanation for seeing such small battles. Similar to the Federation in BoBW fleet at wolf359 assembling only 40 or so ships and loosing them all, and then the Ent-D crew acted as if the 40 lost ships were detremental to starfleet. When you have several thousand 40 ships shouldn't make or break you.

[BenRG]

EDIT: Where were the thousands of ships of the klingon fleet?

Good question. Crappy writing is the best explanation for seeing such small battles. Similar to the Federation in BoBW fleet at wolf359 assembling only 40 or so ships and loosing them all, and then the Ent-D crew acted as if the 40 lost ships were detremental to starfleet. When you have several thousand 40 ships shouldn't make or break you.

I really think that the Star Trek production team really did think that only a few hundred starships was enough for the Federation fleet. Hence, the loss of forty ships at Wolf 359 was a serious defeat.

How could that have worked? Well, maybe the Federation only had a fleet of a few hundred Starship-class vessels; long-range, flexible explorer/battlecruiser hybrids. The rest of Starfleet was made up of fairly short-range defensive and logistic vessls as well as lightly-armed long-haul survey and research vessels. This matches up with the pre-Borg 'attitude' of the Federation: That they are the ultimate power in our part of the universe and that no one would dare challenge them, so why bother with a large deep-space Starfleet? Besides, they are peaceful explorers, not conquerers or paranoid lunatics waiting for the next batch of bug-eyed monsters. This isn't without precedent. Remember the first construction run of the Constitution-class was only twelve units (of which, only the Enterprise survived more than a decade).

Most of the Starship-class vessels were older models too: Constellation-class, heavily-modified Miranda-class and Excelcior-class (both original and the Excelcior-2 that included the Enterprise-B). There seems to have been very few of the modern Galaxy- and Nebula-class ships available, and only a few of the aging-but-useful Ambassador-class. I guess most of them were on diplomatic and exploration missions in deep space and few could get to Sector 001 in time.

Of course, the short brushfire war with the Cardassians and the advent of the Borg forced the Federation to completely reassess its' strategic situation and its' starship development priorities. In a matter of, what, seven years, the Defiant-, Yeager-, Steamrunner-, Akira-, Intrepid-, Prometheus- and Sovereign-classes all came off the slips, transforming the Federation Starfleet into the number one warfleet in the Alpha Quadrant. It is interesting to note that all of these ships were more millitary-themed than the Galaxy- and Nebula-class. All in all, the apparent loss of the Federation's collective arrogance and certainty of invulnerability is a positive development for their prospects of long-term future survival.

[Uraniun235]

EDIT: Where were the thousands of ships of the klingon fleet?

Good question. Crappy writing is the best explanation for seeing such small battles. Similar to the Federation in BoBW fleet at wolf359 assembling only 40 or so ships and loosing them all, and then the Ent-D crew acted as if the 40 lost ships were detremental to starfleet. When you have several thousand 40 ships shouldn't make or break you.

Er, the writers and production crew WERE constrained by the almighty word known as BUDGET... somehow I think a multi-hundred starship battle was a bit beyond the resources of TNG.

I must admit that I've never been able to follow Picard's reason for not helping Gowron (apart from on aesthetic grounds).

Uh, it wasn't just Picard. Remember, when he goes to the admirals for permission and resources to carry out the blockade, they're at first reluctant to as well because of the Prime Directive.

And besides, if Picard had charged in offering aid, you know half the people here would be shaking their heads and wondering how a single Starfleet captain could be allowed to drag the Federation into a potentially long and bloody conflict, all by himself.

It is just that the Federation of the Next Generation century seems to have this attitude that it is too perfect and holy to struggle in the mud like lesser civilisations. It isn't up to them to solve the children's problems for them, they have to learn to look after themselves. I might be prejudiced, I know, but this particular aspect of the Federation's hands-off policy really makes my blood boil sometimes.

So, in an alternate world, if Britain were to be plunged into civil war, and the legit govt. requested aid from a largely pacifistic U.S. government that didn't have enough volunteers to get the job done, it would be my obligation to fight and die in someone else's conflict?

There are reserve activation clauses (TMP). You don't resign from starfleet, you go into reserve..

Nope. Try again.

"The time was long past when men could be forced to serve on naval vessels. Nogura's "drafting" of McCoy (at Kirk's request) had little more authority than moral persuasion." TMP novelization, page 85.

Most important of these is that the Klingons aren't some pre-warp culture that they have to protect from contamination.

I think the prime directive applies in that, barring outside assistance from someone else, for the Federation to intervene would alter the "natural evolution" of Klingon society, and this would violate the Prime Directive.

However, if someone else (i.e. Romulans) is assisting, then the P.D. is null and void because the "natural evolution" has/is already being fucked with and so the issue is no longer relevant; thus the next issue is Federation security, in which case the Feds will most certainly have an interest in intervening.

Therefore, it was imperative according to Federation law that it be determined prior to Federation intervention that a third party was already intervening in the Klingon civil war.

[BenRG]

EDIT: Where were the thousands of ships of the klingon fleet?

Good question. Crappy writing is the best explanation for seeing such small battles. Similar to the Federation in BoBW fleet at wolf359 assembling only 40 or so ships and loosing them all, and then the Ent-D crew acted as if the 40 lost ships were detremental to starfleet. When you have several thousand 40 ships shouldn't make or break you.

Er, the writers and production crew WERE constrained by the almighty word known as BUDGET... somehow I think a multi-hundred starship battle was a bit beyond the resources of TNG.

Yes, well we are trying to work on the basis of 'Suspension of disbelief' here, I think. Let us try to imagine, for a moment, that these were real events...

I must admit that I've never been able to follow Picard's reason for not helping Gowron (apart from on aesthetic grounds).

Uh, it wasn't just Picard. Remember, when he goes to the admirals for permission and resources to carry out the blockade, they're at first reluctant to as well because of the Prime Directive.

And besides, if Picard had charged in offering aid, you know half the people here would be shaking their heads and wondering how a single Starfleet captain could be allowed to drag the Federation into a potentially long and bloody conflict, all by himself.

Actually, I remember those admirals (the episode was aired on BBC-TV only three nights ago) and I thought that their reasons boiled down to: "It's not our problem." My response to that is: "Hey! Remember that treaty you have with them?"

And you're right that some would question Picard's motives and actions, just as some are are questioning his actual behaviour. However, I (at least) and the majority of Klingons on both sides would have been impressed with the honour it showed. It could easily have prevented the Federation-Klingon War, three years, later that preceded the Dominion invasion. Remember "Yesterday's Enteprise". Stuff like this is important to the Klingons.

It is just that the Federation of the Next Generation century seems to have this attitude that it is too perfect and holy to struggle in the mud like lesser civilisations. It isn't up to them to solve the children's problems for them, they have to learn to look after themselves. I might be prejudiced, I know, but this particular aspect of the Federation's hands-off policy really makes my blood boil sometimes.

So, in an alternate world, if Britain were to be plunged into civil war, and the legit govt. requested aid from a largely pacifistic U.S. government that didn't have enough volunteers to get the job done, it would be my obligation to fight and die in someone else's conflict?

I would hope that you would be willing to stick your necks out to help us if we asked for it after the century or more in which we have been best friends and allies, yes.

Of course, I would also hope that you would take a moment to judge which side is the legitimate government. History tells us that being in power doesn't necessarily equate with deserving power.

Most important of these is that the Klingons aren't some pre-warp culture that they have to protect from contamination.

I think the prime directive applies in that, barring outside assistance from someone else, for the Federation to intervene would alter the "natural evolution" of Klingon society, and this would violate the Prime Directive.

However, if someone else (i.e. Romulans) is assisting, then the P.D. is null and void because the "natural evolution" has/is already being fucked with and so the issue is no longer relevant; thus the next issue is Federation security, in which case the Feds will most certainly have an interest in intervening.

Therefore, it was imperative according to Federation law that it be determined prior to Federation intervention that a third party was already intervening in the Klingon civil war.

I think that if Federation law even implies that, it desperately needs to be redrafted. The Prime Directive, IMHO, only applies to vulnerable less-advanced races. The Klingons are the Federation's allies by treaty, meaning that the Federation is obliged (all legal hand-wringing aside) to aid the legitimate government of their ally. You could use taking the Prime Directive to this extreme to justify not opposing the Dominion invasion. Blocking that culture's expansion into the Alpha Quadrant could radically affect its' natural evolution, after all.

[Uraniun235]

Crappy writing is the best explanation for seeing such small battles.

Er, the writers and production crew WERE constrained by the almighty word known as BUDGET... somehow I think a multi-hundred starship battle was a bit beyond the resources of TNG.

Yes, well we are trying to work on the basis of 'Suspension of disbelief' here, I think. Let us try to imagine, for a moment, that these were real events...

"Death from the Sea" blamed it on crappy writing, which is an out-of-context issue; therefore, an out-of-context response (budget) is wholly appropriate.

Besides, to completely ignore issues like limited budget when bitching about not having hundreds of starships on the screen would be foolishness.

I think that if Federation law even implies that, it desperately needs to be redrafted. The Prime Directive, IMHO, only applies to vulnerable less-advanced races. The Klingons are the Federation's allies by treaty, meaning that the Federation is obliged (all legal hand-wringing aside) to aid the legitimate government of their ally. You could use taking the Prime Directive to this extreme to justify not opposing the Dominion invasion. Blocking that culture's expansion into the Alpha Quadrant could radically affect its' natural evolution, after all.

Oh, the PD definitely needs to be drastically reworked into a more useable law; as is, it's fairly worthless. But this is a way in which the PD could be used to justify non-intervention.

[CDiehl]

To me, it's simple. Picard had no right to aid the Bortas (Gowron's ship) when it was attacked, alliance or no alliance. He said it himself; if he did help Gowron, the Federation would have taken sides in a civil war, because Picard's actions reflect on the whole of the Federation. Picard is one captain of one ship, and he has no authority to risk millions of Federation citizens' lives and violate Starfleet/Federation policy, which is explicitly opposed to participating in other countries' civil wars. Also, if Starfleet took sides in one civil war, then they would have to do it in every civil war their allies have from then on. I doubt the people of the Federation will appreciate being sucked into every internal problem of every futuristic banana republic in the quadrant.

I should also mention that Gowron was an idiot for asking Picard (a Captain, not an Admiral or Ambassador) to convey his request for help from the Federation. Picard doesn't have nearly the kind of pull to talk the Federation Council into changing a long-standing policy, and Gowron should be well-informed enough to know this, since he is so often criticized as a politician by other Klingon leaders. If Picard went to Gowron's aid, and Gowron lost, Toral would toss away the alliance and declare war on the Federation. Picard might try to help Gowron, and rationalize it as some personal duty as Arbiter of Sucession. However, he would still be using Starfleet property and personnel, and the result would be the same; the Federation would have been committed at least to fighting off the Duras, if not actually putting a fleet in Klingon territory on Gowron's side.

As for the question of what the Romulans gave the Duras family, did anyone consider that they simply gave them Romulan knockoffs of Klingon materiel? They seem well beyond capable of replicating or manufacturing Klingon equipment, since they have probably acquired a few samples of them over the years. Also, they worked very hard to keep their actions secret, using Warbirds to carry supplies. It would be incredibly suspicious if Gowron's officers found rebel ships and bases firing Romulan weapons or rebel ground troops carrying Romulan disruptors. It is also possible that the Romulan supplies aren't the reason the Duras were able to win battles. A lot of Council members, and probably a lot of fleet commanders and planetary governors, seemed to take Toral's side, so perhaps they did have better leaders than Gowron's rump of officers. It would be analogous to the US Civil War, where the Confederacy had a lot of the best officers from the formerly united US Army. What I think killed the Duras cause after the Romulans were exposed was the embarrassment that they were being manipulated by their worst enemy; a lot of Klingons probably switched sides or became neutral after that revelation. Of course, by that point, the loyalist side might have gotten the upper hand, taken much of the rebels' industrial areas, and made them dependent on the evaporated Romulan support.

Someone asked about we never saw fleet vs. fleet engagements. Leaving aside the real-world budget considerations, it is possible that large fleet vs. fleet battles didn't typify this war any more than they do most wars. A war is not simply two huge armies or fleets hunting each other then slugging it out to decide the whole thing. Most engagements in a war are small groups running into each other, trying to accomplish little goals as part of a larger strategy. I can imagine such a style of warfare would appeal to Klingons, and they seem to consider the war more like a fun adventure than a grim, sad duty.

[Soontir C'boath]

I should also mention that Gowron was an idiot for asking Picard (a Captain, not an Admiral or Ambassador) to convey his request for help from the Federation.

Nitpick: He's a captain of the flagship of the Federation. Thus he would have a better standing with the council. ~Jason

[Isolder74]

I should also mention that Gowron was an idiot for asking Picard (a Captain, not an Admiral or Ambassador) to convey his request for help from the Federation.

Nitpick: He's a captain of the flagship of the Federation. Thus he would have a better standing with the council. ~Jason

Not to mention Picard appears to be representing the Federation at the time Gowron asks.

[CDiehl]

Doesn't matter if he's the President of the Federation. The best Picard could do if he was an ambassador or a public official is to suggest the iea of helping Gowron out to the Federation Council, at which point they are quite likely to refuse because it's a civil war. I am pretty sure that Gowron was not asking Picard to contact Earth and ask his government on his behalf, as much as trying to get him to promise support in the name of the Federation, which he has no authority to do. No matter how much the council likes Picard, they aren't going to let one captain drag billions of Federation citizens into a costly, dangerous war that is not theirs to fight.

[BenRG]

No matter how much the council likes Picard, they aren't going to let one captain drag billions of Federation citizens into a costly, dangerous war that is not theirs to fight.

The point that I have been making since the outset that, in my view, it was the Federation's war to fight. Legal issues aside (treaty obligations vs. the Prime Directive), the outcome of the Civil War, neccessarily, would affect Federation/Klingon relations for generations. It was made pretty clear in the episode that introduced the character that Gowron was the least of two evils. Despite his maverick reputation, he was at least someone that the Federation 'Could Do Business With'. On the other hand, Duras and his clan would do anything for power. If Torval was imposed (even as a puppet) upon the Empire, the Federation would be looking at a border war on-and-off for decades. It is another example of the pre-Borg (and also pre-Dominion) arrogance of the Federation that they thought they could talk the Duras clan around to supporting the alliance simply because they were the Federation and who wouldn't want to be their friends?

As it was, I still wonder, if Sela hadn't chickened out, if the Federation would have intervened even with overwhelming evidence of Romulan interference. The Admiralty was already following a very poor line of argument for non-intervention. It wouldn't have taken very much for them to claim that the Romulans' interference was not an important issue (they had already claimed that Torval was a better general than Gowron).

[CDiehl]

No matter what effect the outcome of the war has, it is absolutely not the Federation's war to fight. If they do it once, they have to do it every time a change of government happens in any allied country. They will no longer have any right to refuse the established governments of their allies, because they will always throw this war in their faces. It's also possible that if the Federation sent ships to aid either side, Klingons on both sides would decide the Federation is trying to make themselves the kingmaker, and unite against them, so no matter who wins, the alliance would be flushed.