Iran's fighter (split)

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-11 02:33am

After 1979, deliveries of valuable technology stopped.

Even with Russian aid - which would come haltingly considering the nature of Iran's economy -, I wouldn't expect them to be able to build - much less sustain - a functioning aerospace industry capable of building anything of any kind.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-11 03:36am

Well they have. Iranians aren't the usual frothing-at-the-mouth fundamentalist Arabs that the media would have us believe (point of fact they aren't Arabs).

While in comparison to the US, they are, well lacking (hey which country isn't?), in their neighbourhood they are kings of the hill, sort of speak.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-06-11 05:03am

Crown wrote:(point of fact they aren't Arabs).

They're Persians to be precise for the uninformed. Not directed at you Crown.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-06-11 07:56am

Axis Kast wrote:After 1979, deliveries of valuable technology stopped.

Even with Russian aid - which would come haltingly considering the nature of Iran's economy -, I wouldn't expect them to be able to build - much less sustain - a functioning aerospace industry capable of building anything of any kind.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-06-11 08:20am

Vympel wrote:http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/mig_i-2000_001.jpg

odd wing configuration.....saucer shaped almost. have the boys in Moscow been watching too much star trek?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-06-11 08:40am

Looks like the result of a drunken liason between an F/A-18 and a JSF prototype.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 09:52am

Vympel wrote:
The F-14As in Iranian service were sabotaged, making them unable to employ the AIM-54 Phoenix. The aircraft are very old, I doubt they could keep them serviceable for much longer. If they want a capable interceptor they should purchase one of the advanced MiG-31 variants offered for sale. It'll cost em a pretty penny though.

Evidently at least some aircraft had that capability restored. Though Iran only had around 275 Phoenix's and some of those where also put out of action.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 09:54am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Evidently at least some aircraft had that capability restored. Though Iran only had around 275 Phoenix's and some of those where also put out of action.

Really? Smart. Wonder how they pulled that one off. I bet if Grumman (if they still existeded independenly and still built Tomcats) cracked open an Iranian F-14 they'd see all sorts of plain wierd bohemian shit in there ...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 10:01am

Vympel wrote:
Really? Smart. Wonder how they pulled that one off. I bet if Grumman (if they still existeded independenly and still built Tomcats) cracked open an Iranian F-14 they'd see all sorts of plain wierd bohemian shit in there ...

They may simply have found then needed parts in some spares shipment. The systems where disabled by US personal on base covertly removing a few components, rather then say chucking grenades inside of the nose cones.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-11 11:45am

I have seen pictures of Iranian produced Phoenix missiles which is claimed to have the same capabilities, although I freely admit that they could be nothing more than paper-mashei mock ups.

Regardless Iran has proven to be a resiliant and resourceful nation.

Rubberanvil wrote:
Crown wrote:(point of fact they aren't Arabs).

They're Persians to be precise for the uninformed. Not directed at you Crown.

I know.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 11:58am

Crown wrote:I have seen pictures of Iranian produced Phoenix missiles which is claimed to have the same capabilities, although I freely admit that they could be nothing more than paper-mashei mock ups.

Do not trust such a photo. Arab nations are well known for showing off fake missiles, though nothing beats the Soviets who used to display fake tanks and guns at every military parade, they also once flew a couple squadrons of bombers past the review stands about twenty times in 1955, causing the west to believe they had several hundred long range bombers when in fact they had about 50. They even build fake ICBM's and mobile launchers for them.

Course then Iraq once had an arms show, in which careful examination of the items displayed revealed that every single one was a non-functional kit bashed SA-2 or AA-2 missile shell.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-11 12:04pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Crown wrote:I have seen pictures of Iranian produced Phoenix missiles which is claimed to have the same capabilities, although I freely admit that they could be nothing more than paper-mashei mock ups.
Do not trust such a photo. Arab nations are well known for showing off fake missiles, though nothing beats the Soviets who used to display fake tanks and guns at every military parade, they also once flew a couple squadrons of bombers past the review stands about twenty times in 1955, causing the west to believe they had several hundred long range bombers when in fact they had about 50. They even build fake ICBM's and mobile launchers for them.

Course then Iraq once had an arms show, in which careful examination of the items displayed revealed that every single one was a non-functional kit bashed SA-2 or AA-2 missile shell.

Preaching to the choir dude. Given the vast amount of help Iran needed to build it's tact missiles (don't tell me no-one has noticed how North Korea's, Pakistan's and Iran's missiles look the fucking same!), I seriously doubt that they could build a Phoenix.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 12:09pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Do not trust such a photo. Arab nations are well known for showing off fake missiles, though nothing beats the Soviets who used to display fake tanks and guns at every military parade, they also once flew a couple squadrons of bombers past the review stands about twenty times in 1955, causing the west to believe they had several hundred long range bombers when in fact they had about 50. They even build fake ICBM's and mobile launchers for them.

Now that's just embarassing.

Ok, who's dumber, the ones who came up with the trick or the one's who believed it?

Bring back the May Day parades!

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-11 12:12pm

Please, remember the super-powerful-all-conquering-can't-be-beaten MIG 25? Clearly the one's who fall for it. Mind you, it is in their best intrests to fall for it, as it scares the fuck out of illiterate politicians who hold the purse strings.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 12:34pm

Crown wrote:Please, remember the super-powerful-all-conquering-can't-be-beaten MIG 25? Clearly the one's who fall for it. Mind you, it is in their best intrests to fall for it, as it scares the fuck out of illiterate politicians who hold the purse strings.

[MiG-25 worshipper]The Soviets didn't make any effort to trick the West as to what FOXBAT was, it's just that Western analysts wet themselves and assumed it had to be an air superiority fighter instead of just a really cool interceptor/ reconnaisance plane

Mirror-imaging, they called it.

Point taken, naturally. America wouldn't have gotten the F-15 Eagle without FOXBAT- though they never could match the speed requirement set.

They should make a new-build MiG-25 derivative when their current MiG-25R variants run out of service life, so they can continue to collect intelligence with impunity over the battlefield- Coalition fighters could never quite catch Iraqi FOXBATs in 1991- just too fast.[/MiG-25 worshipper]

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 12:50pm

Vympel wrote: Now that's just embarassing.

Ok, who's dumber, the ones who came up with the trick or the one's who believed it?

Bring back the May Day parades!

When Rommel first arrived in Tripoli he did the same thing, parading his tanks down the main street and then looping them around to come back again. It actually fooled the main British agent in the city until he noticed the same tank with a damaged return roller pass by several times.

Anyway, the West didn't exactly have much else to go on.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 12:52pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
When Rommel first arrived in Tripoli he did the same thing, parading his tanks down the main street and then looping them around to come back again. It actually fooled the main British agent in the city until he noticed the same tank with a damaged return roller pass by several times.

Anyway, the West didn't exactly have much else to go on.

Well, one thing's for certain the Soviets never needed to have their tanks come round the corner more than once

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 12:54pm

Vympel wrote:
[MiG-25 worshipper]The Soviets didn't make any effort to trick the West as to what FOXBAT was, it's just that Western analysts wet themselves and assumed it had to be an air superiority fighter instead of just a really cool interceptor/ reconnaisance plane

Mirror-imaging, they called it.

Point taken, naturally. America wouldn't have gotten the F-15 Eagle without FOXBAT- though they never could match the speed requirement set.

They should make a new-build MiG-25 derivative when their current MiG-25R variants run out of service life, so they can continue to collect intelligence with impunity over the battlefield- Coalition fighters could never quite catch Iraqi FOXBATs in 1991- just too fast.[/MiG-25 worshipper]

Something often forgotten is that the sustained speed and range figures of the MiG-25 where real, it just happened to be a reconnaissance drone that held them. The drones began operating out of Poland at almost the exact same time the first MiG-25 units arrived.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 12:57pm

Vympel wrote:
Well, one thing's for certain the Soviets never needed to have their tanks come round the corner more than once

They did however make new ones for the western observers, generally by throwing on different turrets and changing a few road wheels around on an existing model or by simply sending out a platoon of rejected prototypes.

However almost all of these decoys where identified for what they where almost at once, the bomber gap trick only worked because the bombers where all real and interspaced with sufficient other aircraft to keep things confusing.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 01:08pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: They did however make new ones for the western observers, generally by throwing on different turrets and changing a few road wheels around on an existing model or by simply sending out a platoon of rejected prototypes.

However almost all of these decoys where identified for what they where almost at once, the bomber gap trick only worked because the bombers where all real and interspaced with sufficient other aircraft to keep things confusing.

Fuck I want May Day Parades back.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-11 01:14pm

Vympel wrote:
Fuck I want May Day Parades back.

Maybe when the Russian army can spare the gas money again. Course they weren't all great. For one parade in bad weather the Russians rigged up a system of infrared lights to help guide the tank drivers who where to pass by buttoned up. Well unfortunately the system blew a breaker out in the middle of the parade, resulting in several dozen collisions within seconds. But the glorious Red army tank drivers quickly popped hatches and completed the parade in disorder.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-11 01:29pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Maybe when the Russian army can spare the gas money again.

Actually, it's illegal to march heavy equipment through anymore. The May Day parade still happens, it's just troops now though.

Course they weren't all great. For one parade in bad weather the Russians rigged up a system of infrared lights to help guide the tank drivers who where to pass by buttoned up. Well unfortunately the system blew a breaker out in the middle of the parade, resulting in several dozen collisions within seconds. But the glorious Red army tank drivers quickly popped hatches and completed the parade in disorder.

Why didn't they use their own IR driving aids?

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-06-11 01:58pm

Vympel wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote: They did however make new ones for the western observers, generally by throwing on different turrets and changing a few road wheels around on an existing model or by simply sending out a platoon of rejected prototypes.

However almost all of these decoys where identified for what they where almost at once, the bomber gap trick only worked because the bombers where all real and interspaced with sufficient other aircraft to keep things confusing.
Fuck I want May Day Parades back.

The US is the only power that has the kind of money to pull off anything even appoaching the scale of the old May Day parades...but i wouldn't hol your breath..

*wanders of into a daydream of hundreds of Abrams' rolling down Pensylvania Avenue.....followed by Bradleys......and Humvees...with Apachies buzzing over rooftops.... <sigh>

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-11 02:14pm

You have no idea what you're talking about.

That so? I'm genuinely surprised by Iran's achievements.

It's been done before - in South Africa -, although they built the Cheetah D off an old Lavi with much Israeli assistance and the benefit of reverse-engineered French technology.

As for the PHOENIX, I'm fairly sure Iran deployed none during the war with Iraq. Most of the vaunted dog-fighters were F-4s on half-squadron penetraitor missions.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-06-11 02:30pm

Vympel wrote:Mirror-imaging, they called it.

Yeah, both sides did mirror-imaging all the time. The USSR thought there was an antiship version of the CALCM since they'd do it, and they were damned afraid of it, too.

They should make a new-build MiG-25 derivative when their current MiG-25R variants run out of service life, so they can continue to collect intelligence with impunity over the battlefield- Coalition fighters could never quite catch Iraqi FOXBATs in 1991- just too fast.[/MiG-25 worshipper]

IIRC, they also only had AIM-7s on the rails, which sucked anyways