Battle: Warbird vs Sovereign

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-11 11:36pm

Uraniun235 wrote: Keep in mind that 1701 was easily disabled because it was already crippled by the battle damage from TWOK, and because (as Howedar pointed out) there was no crew to effect any repairs whatsoever. That, and Scott's automation system was apparently unable to handle combat loads. A fully-crewed and repaired 1701 would have smashed the Bird of Prey; Kruge even says "Why hasn't he destroyed us? He outguns me ten to one!"

Well, I am not talking about this in power levels, just simply the bad luck ships named Enterprise have when meeting up with Klingon Birds of Prey. Also, wansn't the alternate Universe Enterprise in "Yesterday's Enterprise" destroyed by Birds of prey?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-06-11 11:41pm

We never saw the alternate E-D destroyed in "Yesterday's Enterprise", although it's implied by the burning bridge that it was about to be destroyed when the E-C went back in time.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-12 10:45am

Uraniun235 wrote:(where did "twice forward firepower of GCS" come from, anyway?)

A Warbird slightly outguns a standard GCS. A Warbird is shown to have a forward weapon biass whereas the GCS has weapons all over. A GCS has never truly damaged a Warbird while a Warbird can down a GCSs shields rather easily. Doing the math a Warbird has effectively twice the forward firepower of a GCS.

As to the Sovereign. Asside for the bridge shot, the Enterprise took aproximately a half dozen torpedo strikes and further disrupter strikes to its bare hull and was still combat capable. The only reason she stopped fighting after the bridge hit was because phasers were drained and torpedoes empty. Even with that gaping hole she could still have fought.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-12 01:34pm

In the Defector two warbirds were stated by Picard to be able to destroy the Ent D (with sheilds up) in seconds. In this scenario one would do crippling damage to a sovvie in an alpha strike.

It's also worth noting that the D'deridex has the fastest refire rate I've seen on a trek ship.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-12 01:53pm

Clarification. The first warbird in defector fired twelve disruptor shots in four seconds. Later seven shots (from two seperate warbirds) were enough to damage the Enterprise's secondary hull through it's shields, and picard claimed that that was only a 'tap on the shoulder' or they wouldn't be there talking about it.

Now if we assume that the Sovvie will take four seconds to raise her shields (hey, they'll be thown around the bridge), that's more than long enough for the warbird to get off twelve shots at the bridge/saucer section/torpedo launcher/other target of opportunity. In fact if the gunners on the D'deridex are good then they would be able to take the bridge, fore torp turret, nacelles (Bang), and put some holes in the ship.

Though of course there's nothing (these aren't klingons, they are without honour...) to stop the Romulans transporting a 'great big bomb' over to the sovvie's warp core.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-06-12 09:54pm

I got the impression individual disruptor shots from the Scimitar were somewhat less powerful than those of the main gun on the good old Warbird. However, the fire the E-E took unshielded would probably have destroyed the E-D fully shielded... It all depends on targeting I think. If the Warbird hits vital areas quickly enough it is over, if the Sov. survives long enough to raise shields... the Warbird is screwed. Horribly. But others have said this already. I would argue the Warbird goes for its standard bracketing attack and misses vital hits such as the deflector dish. It can hit the nacelles if it wants, I doubt the Sov. would care nearly as much as the Galaxy, and bridge hits seem rare, even when ships have the choice. I would say the Warbird can take out the Sov., but I don't think it would.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-06-12 10:45pm

the Sov. survives long enough to raise shields... the Warbird is screwed. Horribly.

Not if the Warbird was able to hit a nacelle beforehand... in which case (at least, going by what we see in Nemesis) the Soveriegn's warp drive will probably be down, and the Warbird can escape. Even if the ship wasn't destroyed, it's been effectively immobilized, giving the Romulan fleet that much more flexibility in dealing with it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-12 11:34pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
the Sov. survives long enough to raise shields... the Warbird is screwed. Horribly.
Not if the Warbird was able to hit a nacelle beforehand... in which case (at least, going by what we see in Nemesis) the Soveriegn's warp drive will probably be down, and the Warbird can escape. Even if the ship wasn't destroyed, it's been effectively immobilized, giving the Romulan fleet that much more flexibility in dealing with it.

Unless the Warbird hits the warp engine and runs like hell, the Sovereign will be able to return fire and utterly scrap the Warbird in little time.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-06-13 12:27pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
the Sov. survives long enough to raise shields... the Warbird is screwed. Horribly.
Not if the Warbird was able to hit a nacelle beforehand... in which case (at least, going by what we see in Nemesis) the Soveriegn's warp drive will probably be down, and the Warbird can escape. Even if the ship wasn't destroyed, it's been effectively immobilized, giving the Romulan fleet that much more flexibility in dealing with it.

You mis-quoted him, he said "IF the Sov. survives long enough to raise shields... the Warbird is screwed. Horribly." (Emphasis is mine).

But you are right, it's all a matter of how good of a shot the Warbird can get.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-14 12:56am

The Sovereign wins this one easily. The D'Deridex class warbird barely outgunned a Galaxy class, although it had a heavy forward weapon biass which gave it twice the forward firepower of a Galaxy. On the other hand a Sovereign has more then three times the forward firepower of a Galaxy as well as superior shields and armor. The Sovereign survives the initial volley and then swiftly destroys the Warbird.

I agree with you. A Warbird could not defeat a Sovergein in a direct fight. However in this scenario it does have a chance of destroying or possibly disabling the Sovergein.

The Sovergein's shields are down which means the Warbird can bring its powerful disruptors and torpedoes to bear on any of the Sovergeins defenceless subsystems. True the abalative armor on a Sovergein will minimize the damage the Warbird can cause before the shields come back online but that is all the Warbird needs to disable the Sovergein. The Warbird can hit the shield generator, phaser banks, torpedo launcers, lifesupport and indeed the bridge as some suggested.

Also since the Sovergein lowered its shields for transport any onboard transport inhibitors would be down also. This would allow the Warbird to beam photon torpedoes inside ship itself. A 64 megaton detonation in the main engineering is not going to do the Sovergein any good.

More phaser strips don't necessarily equate to more firepower, and I don't think it can vomit out Q-torps anywhere near as fast as the E-D could launch volleys of photorps (although I admit I'm basing this on "Yesterday's Enterprise", which is arguably a different E-D).

I think more phaser banks would definately equal more firepower since the Sovergein is armed iwith type XII phasers which are more powerful than the GCS models.

Also the Sovergein has photon torpedo launchers as well quantums so the total torpedo firepower would be higher than a GCS.

- If the Starfleet commander knows to hit the Quantum Singularity drive, they can win the battle somewhat quickly, as it seems to be an unstable device.

The Sovergeins phasers can not punch through the Warbirds shields like a smaller ship, they are too powerful. Of course it could hit the quantum singularity drive once the Warbird has been severaly damaged but that assumes that the Sovergein survives the initial attack by the Warbird.

- The Daystrom Institute site, puts it's "beam" strength, (what I assume to be disruptor beam) at 30% higher then the GCS, and it's hull armor 20% higher, which would theoretically make huitting the QSD harder.

The Warbirds hull should be much stronger than that since it is twice the length of a GCS.

People are suggesting the Romulans would aim for the bridge
Who says they would it?
First, Trek targetting systems, regardless of species, don't seem to be the best (personally, I think they all have ramming systems going to cause that, otherwise, the AI on any 3-D Shooter would be a huge improvement over there targetting systems)

We have repeatedly seen trek ships targetting individual subsytems. Star Trek accuracy is not as bad as you think. Their weapens are quite accurate and have a very long range. In "human error" Voyger hit a missile at five million kilometers.

, Sovereign class ships have exceptionaly good targeting. They can pinpoint attack an enemy system with phasers and retarget another system and fire in under a second. That speaks for quick aiming with good refire rates.

Agreed. In Insurrection we have seen the Enterprise destroying the lifesupport on the Sona ship without actualy killing anyone aboard.

Though of course there's nothing (these aren't klingons, they are without honour...) to stop the Romulans transporting a 'great big bomb' over to the sovvie's warp core.

A very intelligent idea. Total morons like Janeway have succesfully beamed torpedoes onboard a borg scout with SHIELDS UP, there is no reason why the romulans can not do it. They are after all one of the few star trek species that actualy follow legitimate military tactics.

Not if the Warbird was able to hit a nacelle beforehand... in which case (at least, going by what we see in Nemesis) the Soveriegn's warp drive will probably be down, and the Warbird can escape. Even if the ship wasn't destroyed, it's been effectively immobilized, giving the Romulan fleet that much more flexibility in dealing with it.

It might even destroy the Sovergein. The Enterprise-D was destroyed by a naccele tap in "cause and its effect". But it may not work since starfleet had done a lot work in improving warp drive safeties.

Unless the Warbird hits the warp engine and runs like hell, the Sovereign will be able to return fire and utterly scrap the Warbird in little time.

The Enterprise-E was fleeing at the sight of two Sona battleships in "Insurrection". They did not consider engaging them. If a weak race like Sona can build battleships that can take on a Sovergein there is no reason to beleive the Romulans who actualy exceed the Federation in some ways can not build a better ship. While the Warbird might be weaker than a Sona battleship since it is a older design it is still something to be feared. In a direct battle with a Sovergein the Warbird would be destroyed but not before giving a good fight.

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-06-14 02:46am

, Sovereign class ships have exceptionaly good targeting. They can pinpoint attack an enemy system with phasers and retarget another system and fire in under a second. That speaks for quick aiming with good refire rates.

Well, the E-E was within 100 metres at least, you'd have to be totally idiotic to miss at that range.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-14 11:32am

This was not covered directly by the thread but if the Soveign is as powerful as some consider it to be, what do you think the Romulan solution will be, a more powerful Warbird or building more of the ship in Nemesis?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-14 03:04pm

The Schem was probably intended as an answer to the Sov. I sincirely doubt the slaves could have built it. Though I blame them for the colour and the ueber weapon.

I imagine it was intended by the Romulans to carry Trilitium torps (Generations never said that the Romulans lost the tech IIRC) into the fed/kling home systems using it's ueber cloak and send them nova. It would be in character for the senete to restrain the millitary and no longer feel the need for posturing (A la TNG) when they can destroy their enemies homelands and their enemies know it (the info leaked in gen)

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-14 10:06pm

NecronLord wrote:The Schem was probably intended as an answer to the Sov. I sincirely doubt the slaves could have built it. Though I blame them for the colour and the ueber weapon.

I imagine it was intended by the Romulans to carry Trilitium torps (Generations never said that the Romulans lost the tech IIRC) into the fed/kling home systems using it's ueber cloak and send them nova. It would be in character for the senete to restrain the millitary and no longer feel the need for posturing (A la TNG) when they can destroy their enemies homelands and their enemies know it (the info leaked in gen)

I agree. The Scimatar was probobly designed as a platform for delivering superweopens, the Scimatar already carries a Thalaron radiation emitter capable rendering an entire planet lifeless, and there is no reason to believe why the Romulans would not add more superweopens. With the ability travel anywhere undetected and defeat a small fleet of starships if needed the Scimator would be the perfect means to deliver any superweopen. It is like a modern B2 stealth bomber or missile sub, it can lie hidden from the enemy and deliver a devastating counterstrike when a grave danger threatens the Romulan Star Empire.

One can imagine that the Romulans might arm the Scimatar with a deadly array of superweopens like trilithium torpedoes, subspace warheads, temporal disruptors etc. Once fully armed a single Scimatar class warbird may pose such a great threat that any potential enemies would think twice before attacking the Romulans.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-15 01:58am

NecronLord wrote:I imagine it was intended by the Romulans to carry Trilitium torps (Generations never said that the Romulans lost the tech IIRC) into the fed/kling home systems using it's ueber cloak and send them nova. It would be in character for the senete to restrain the millitary and no longer feel the need for posturing (A la TNG) when they can destroy their enemies homelands and their enemies know it (the info leaked in gen)

Actually the trilithium tech was Soran's and he gave it to the Duras sisters who died and the Romulans were just the ones that they stole the trilithium from. So that uber weapon is out.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-06-15 02:04am

What I'd do (I do it in BC so...) is try to get behind the thing while cloaked and then decloak, fire as much as a salvo as possible, recloak, and head off in a random direction.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-15 09:10am

Death from the Sea wrote: Actually the trilithium tech was Soran's and he gave it to the Duras sisters who died and the Romulans were just the ones that they stole the trilithium from. So that uber weapon is out.

He stole the weapon though and through, hence why the romulans went round to bust him up to get it back. It isn't lost tech like genesis, it's only lost to the feds and klings.