current debate with fam member

[Enforcer Talen]

me:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

her:

Much of the Bible, and all of the 10 Commandments, are about relationships. Society at the time those passages were written included slavery, just as it included women not owning property (so did the 1800's!), or having long hair, or men having several wives. Doesn't mean God condoned what we see as wrong. It means He was setting forth rules to abide by to make society run. One problem we each have is that we focus more on the obligations of others more than on our own. Christ wants us to take responsibility for our actions. Freedom isn't license, it is liberty to produce the fruits of righteousness through a Spirit led lifestyle.

As far as the new testament passages go, remember that Christ was often offering a better lifestyle than was known prior to that. You are missing the parts of those passages that tell the owners how to behave. "Masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their master and yours is in Heaven, and there is no favoritism with him." (Eph. 6:9) "Fathers, do not exasperate your children;..." (Eph. 6:4) "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..." (Eph. 6:25) Christ isn't addressing the issue of slavery. He's telling the masters to treat slaves better than they've ever been treated, and telling slaves to give their masters more respect than disrespect.


The Luke passage--READ THE CONTEXT! 12:35-46 talks about lazy servants who are trying to get away with doing nothing while the master is out of town. When he comes back they are of course punished, unlike those who had not been aware of the instructions. Regarding "from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." this applies to all of us and especially to you. For example, I don't expect as much of Meg regarding her room because she doesn't have the capacity to see order the way you do. I expect more of you. God has given me many blessings, and expects me to make the most of them and to give back much, which I do joyfully. My voice for instance. God has given you an amazing brain, Jeremy. As I said to you the other day, quit going to the people who don't know what's going on, and learn from those that do. Your internet sources are missing the point. Go to the big concordance in the hall and look up subjects yourself. Find the whole context. Join a Bible study or talk with my intellectual friends and have some REAL discussions. Quit looking for the inconsistencies and look for the consistencies. The positive things that don't change are what's truly interesting. Does it really serve your future self to focus on only part of history and to become more cynical? Or should someone with your goals and capacity be thinking for himself? Leadership is liability.

me:

Nonsense. If they were rules to merely make society run, why are non-christians ordered killed throughout the bible? See Exodus 22:20 Deuteronomy 13:6-10 Deuteronomy 13:12-16 Deuteronomy 17:12-13 Deuteronomy 18:20 Mark 6:11, and Jude 5 for examples. Examine how often homosexuals are ordered killed, even though their sexuality harms none, and they find love as often as heterosexuals. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 for examples. A society such as that would be one of the concentration camp, and a theocracy such as Iran to boot. The Bible does not disown slavery, even though it is a hideous trade that harms all who touches it, but it seems quite willing to annhilate gays and muslims. The point is not that masters were to treat slaves well - it is that they had slaves at all! Is it ethical for me to buy Indian slaves today, if I treat them well? even if I didnt, look at 1 Peter 2:18-19. Shall we apply Jesus' racial heirarchy in Mark 7:27 to the world? And dont claim as it's the Old Testament, it doesnt apply - look to Mt.5:18-19
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

her:

I can't speak to all of that. I know God says homosexuality is wrong but we are still to love those who are enslaved to it. As for not hurting anyone, we can't know all the repercussions. We are told to do or not do many things for our own good, not just by God but by other authorities. We don't have to understand it all, just know that things will be worse if we disobey. Plenty of people think a little extramarital fling won't hurt anyone; that no one will know. Or ponography addiction. Or closet alcoholism or drug use. They get found out and plenty are hurt.

Non -Jews were killed more than non-Christians, but it was to prevent evil from spreading. I'm not saying it's a pleasant thought to destroy whole groups and I don't always agree with God. I'm saying He knew that there would be repercussions that destroyed His chosen by letting too much of other ways come in. I am not God, it is not my place to approve or not. Nor do I always see the big picture. Believe me, there is a lot I can get angry about regarding certain issues in my life, but He knows the end of the story and I don't. I'll get there more easily if I do things His way. He will still love me if I don't, but I'll lose some of the blessings en route.

me:

Again, foolishness. Who is going to love a group of people who are destined to be damned? You and I both know that the majority of gay lynchings are due to religious types who call it an abomination before god - if he justifies it for them, the golden rule is tidily forgotten. IF we were to all follow god, the United States would instantly become a land of one religion, and, as fundamentalism is so easily invoked, the extermination camps would be churning full time. god calls vast numbers of people who A, dont worship him, or B, dont follow his sex edicts, to be slaughtered wholesale in this world and burned for eternity in the next.
Loving god, this is not.

her:

We are all destined to be damned, kid and there are plenty of us loving each other. That's why we need Christ and have the choice of whether or not to accept that salvation. That option is open to gays as well as the rest of us. We are all enslaved by one thing or another, if not our sexuality then addictions to other things. Sin is simply this--knowing what we are supposed to do and not doing it, or knowing what we are not supposed to do and doing it anyway. Jesus gives us the power to make the right choices, and even then he gives us the freedom to accept that knowledge or not. When we do go astray he still welcomes us back and helps us get another fresh start. I'd call that pretty loving.

I must leave. Read The Case for FAith chapter 6.

me:

-tap tap- are you listening to yourself? damnation is immoral. it is absurd to think that decisions in life gain an eternity of torture (yes, I read the book, and why is the interpretation it presents automatically correct? christ himself in mat 5:22 said fear the hellfire.). people change during their lives - at what point are we deciding them? some people start out as christians, and then change their mind - some live a life of immorality, then convert. some do so on their death beds. it is heinous to think that a person who kills someone else every year gets to heaven the same way an uber charity person was. and dont claim it's deeds that get into heaven - we arent catholics. you take christ as your personal saviour, you go into heaven. period. "all sins are washed away". how many times have heard that mantra? it entails hitler goes to heaven, and gandhi goes to hell. Im not so sure I want to see the mustiachoed fellow there.
According to the bible, god does not want morality, he wants obedience, I cant count the number of times men women and children were slaughtered in his name or at his hands. look to revelation. god slaughters *billions* of people, and they are cast into a pit of fire. what are there crimes? keeping a different faith. I guess god doesnt know about the first amendment.
it is absurd to have such an amoral creature in command - indeed, due to his command, he is amoral. you know the phrase as well as I. power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. god has always been absolutely powerful. he has no understanding of what it is to be weak, because he has never been weak. would a man who had never been a child make a good father? not in the least. he wouldnt understand it. you say that you love me, and that god loves his children a million times more. if I disowned you for whatever reason (hypothetical, of course), would you still care for me? or would you want me killed in the most gruesome way possible? examine the differences between your actions and god's. to follow a man simply because he is powerful is the social concept of 10 000 yrs ago. these days, we elect those who will command, so they are responsible to us. they dont stay more then a few years, and they have checks to their power. would you say this is good? of course. but who elected god? what are the checks on his power? when does his term end? he is almighty, forever. he lives in the bible, running purges to those who oppose him. stalin could look to him for a model. look to those he kills - people who do not worship him, for the most part. a free gift of salvation? nonsense. it is the most expensive price I have ever seen, a million lifetimes of slavery. you know as well as I god did not outlaw slavery.

[Darth Gojira]

Nice work. You're doing fine on your own.

[Enforcer Talen]

I thought so, but I do like to show off.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Just remember, faith, by definion can not be logicaly argued with.
Once you have accepted faith, all arguements become about religious doctine.(you have already swollowed the camel, why are you gagging on the gnat?)
By using the Bible, you have already "lost" the arguement.
It is now a theological discussion. The nature and will of God(s).

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Physical law< God.
Cause and effect = physical law = logic
Therefor, God> logic
Get it?

[Enforcer Talen]

true, true. its a christian fam and I dont want to shake the boat too much by saying Im atheist. that will beg for conversion attempts and more demands for church then I already get.

by arguing on the nature of god, I stay on safer ground ^^