Israel all but declares war...

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-06-12 11:26pm

Ted wrote:
You got it wrong.

Israel is no longer a wasteland because they pumped the aquifer dry, screwing the whole place over completely.

Funny, my family over there has made no mention of this supposed horrendous drought you have cited.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-06-13 12:14am

cause the drought finshed this winter (which has actully BEEN a winter).
we actully had SNOW for 2 times

I sure hope what you say about gaza is not true

then its going to be a PR nightmare for Israel, and dozens of dead.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-06-13 03:10am

0.1 wrote:The truly sad part about all this is you can trace this back to Arafat. He had everything he wanted with Barak, but he still didn't budge. IDIOT. Putting him down might not be a bad idea, although you need some neutral party to do it. How about some suicide bombers from Thailand (nice and fairly neutral... ha ha ha ha).

Haven't read much of Mike's essay on the Middle East have you? He's already covered the deal with Barak and why it failed, but if you want to put a real face to the cause of the problems in the past eight years, how about Yigal Amir and Benyamin Netanyahu? Those two are the fuckwits behind this mess, even more than Sharon is, and he has certainly done his fair share lately. After the Oslo accords in 1993, there was real hope that something will finally happen and that a lasting peace can be achieved soon. Under the Yitzhak Rabin government, things were going almost on schedule almost according to plan, which happened to incense Israeli fundamentalists no end, and as a result, in 1995 an Israeli orthodox Jew by the name of Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin, and stated that he had done so in order to derail the Oslo process. Rabin's death led to his party's defeat in the next elections because Peres simply didn't have the charisma needed to beat Netanyahu.
When Netanyahu became prime minister, he immediately pushed back the schedule of the Oslo accords, outright refused to abide by important clauses in them, increased the scope of settlements in the occupied territories and in general did everything that was possible to sabotage the peace, all the while pretending that he was actually trying to further the negotiations. Back in those days suicide bombings were rare enough that each one was front page news material or nearly so, yet every time one happened, Netanyahu immediately scrapped everything that had been achieved by that point and forced a return to square one, and usually added a provocation on top of that to boot. He broke every promise he ever made to the Palestinians, so is it any wonder that they decided that fuck the Israelis and resume armed struggle? By the time Barak got in power, what he offered was far too little, far too late.

In 1995 support for Hamas and the other extremists was around 16 to 20 percent among Palestinians. In 2001 that number was up to 80+ percent of the population, and the reasons are quite clearly visible if you bother to look for them. Netanyahu deliberately pushed the Palestinians to extremism after he had gotten in power, something that never would have happened without the unasked for help of Yigal Amir.

0.1 wrote:As for Hamas, Shep, you don't need them to get together in some secret meeting, just drop submunitions on the next Hamas rally. Everyone knows that the only reason the Israelis have restrained themselves is because the government is a democracy, and it will likely not sanction anything that bloody.

They've had few compunctions in the past. The only thing checking them is international scrutiny and the necessity to keep up some semblance of morality.

0.1 wrote:The Israelis are probably more likely to negotiate, because unlike the Palestinians, most of the Israelis realize that they have more to lose. There seems to be a belief in the Palestinian population that Israel has to go, and there can't be peace until the state of Israel is wiped out. It's sad, but as I said before, until the parties involved (more the Palestinians from my point of view than the Israelis) realize that negotiations is preferable to the current state of low intensity warfare, this will keep going on. The only way, people will realize that peace is better than war, is if the war takes a real toll. A majority of Europeans finally got that message during the last century. May be, the middle east needs to get the same message.

The majority of Palestinians were at the negotiation table willingly and happily and with high hopes for the future ten years ago. Too bad Israel broke every promise made, so is it any wonder after what happened between 1995 and 1999 that their opinion changed? Now the Israelis claim that they want to negotiate, though only on their terms, after they pulled what they pulled, but could it be because there is a toll being taken by the terrorists? The Israeli government made the mistake of pushing the Palestinians from politically motivated terrorism (as practiced by the PLO, with the aim of gaining a Palestinian state) to religiously motivated jihadistic terrorism (as practiced by Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade and Islamic Jihad). The difference between those two is that once the terrorists of the first type achieve their goals, the terror will stop (and they are the ones to whom the saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" applies), but there is no such compromise with the jihadistic terrorists. Nothing but the utter annihilation of what they perceive as the enemy will do.

Israel chose its own poison, and they're just trying to purge it by taking more of the same. As Chrostas said, genocide or forcible expulsion of all Palestinians are the only solutions that will absolutely guarantee them safety at this point, but then they'd be no better than the Nazis. Because they broke so many promises since 1995, the price they must pay (in political concessions and dismantled settlements) to achieve a real peace is substantially higher.

The case is much the same as with the bitch who rented an apartment from my parents and didn't make the payments. They asked her to pay, knowing that sometimes people have hard times, but she didn't even make an effort. If she had, would have been no problem, but she chose to do things the hard way. They threw her out and went to court and got a summary decision granting all they asked, and now because she didn't pay, she'll stay on credit blacklists for as long as it takes, even if it's for the rest of her life, and if they can make life difficult for her by forcible confiscation of her pay, they will. The problem in the Middle East is that Israel is in the same position as that bitch, but has the power to ignore a peaceful solution in favor a of a bloodier one indefinitely, especially with US backing.

Edi

0.1 · Post by **0.1** » 2003-06-13 03:43am

Read it. Don't agree with it.

So, bottom line, what's your solution. Since you piped up here, Edi and didn't bother in the other thread.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-13 03:51am

and be sure to copy your solution here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=22693

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-06-13 05:31am

Haven't read much of Mike's essay on the Middle East have you? He's already covered the deal with Barak and why it failed, but if you want to put a real face to the cause of the problems in the past eight years, how about Yigal Amir and Benyamin Netanyahu? Those two are the fuckwits behind this mess, even more than Sharon is, and he has certainly done his fair share lately. After the Oslo accords in 1993, there was real hope that something will finally happen and that a lasting peace can be achieved soon. Under the Yitzhak Rabin government, things were going almost on schedule almost according to plan, which happened to incense Israeli fundamentalists no end, and as a result, in 1995 an Israeli orthodox Jew by the name of Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin, and stated that he had done so in order to derail the Oslo process. Rabin's death led to his party's defeat in the next elections because Peres simply didn't have the charisma needed to beat Netanyahu.

New finding reveales , that Yigal Amir DID NOT act alone, one of Rabin's security staff memebers, gave Yigal Amir the information he needed.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-06-13 06:35am

Ace Pace wrote:New finding reveales , that Yigal Amir DID NOT act alone, one of Rabin's security staff memebers, gave Yigal Amir the information he needed.

Which in fact makes it worse than if he had acted alone. The whole point of my post was to remind the people here of the point when things took the most decisively serious turn for worse, and that was when Rabin was killed. All the rest of it that has happened since can be almost directly traced to that pivotal point. That more than just a single nutcase were in on the plot to assassinate a peacemaker whose efforts had a high likelihood of success just makes the image of Israel that much worse.

Not that most people even bother to remember as far back as the events of 1995 when the subject comes up, in most discussions I've seen people only talk of the period from Barak's premiership to the present, as if nothing happened between the Oslo accords and that.

In any case, thank you for correcting my ignorance regarding the plot against Rabin.

Edi

Post by **Steve** » 2003-06-13 07:53am

Everything is proceeding as I have forseen.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-06-13 08:32am

Which in fact makes it worse than if he had acted alone. The whole point of my post was to remind the people here of the point when things took the most decisively serious turn for worse, and that was when Rabin was killed. All the rest of it that has happened since can be almost directly traced to that pivotal point. That more than just a single nutcase were in on the plot to assassinate a peacemaker whose efforts had a high likelihood of success just makes the image of Israel that much worse.

it was a pivotal point, however, they were related (thru distantly), also, not everything when down, peres continued witht he peace process, however, on the same platform was the Rightwing party elected (with a bare majorty), however, the moment they got elected they threw the platform of peace away. and that is the reason for barak's election.

however I agree with you, barak was too late, however HE did make some crazy offers, the lake Kineret, HUGE areas, and lots of money, why arafat didnt agree was beyond me.

Arafat is becoming unglued, if anyone remebers a interview he had with CNN, he started by asking to be called General Arafat, and by the end called himself Leader Arafat, and threw the CNN staff out of the room.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-06-13 08:59am

Tragic wrote:Why didn't the UN place them between like canada and the USA.? If they were placed between those 2 countries we wouldn't have all this problem.

And if I'm mistaking forgive my ignorance.

Um, where? last time i checked there wasn't any land between the US and Canada.....unless someone dug a hole in the ground and named it New Michigantario....not only that, but what does North America have to do with their religious beliefs? nothing.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-13 12:33pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Tragic wrote:Why didn't the UN place them between like canada and the USA.? If they were placed between those 2 countries we wouldn't have all this problem.

And if I'm mistaking forgive my ignorance.
Um, where? last time i checked there wasn't any land between the US and Canada.....unless someone dug a hole in the ground and named it New Michigantario....not only that, but what does North America have to do with their religious beliefs? nothing.

That would be the point, as there was no 'Israel' before 1947 (?), it was Palestine.

It's like everytime some one says; 'I don't get why the Arabs are so angry at the Israelis'. My response is always, why don't you carve out a chunk of your country and call that Israel then. Mind you, here I am asking you to do it, not forcing it upon you against your will by UN mandate.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-06-13 12:51pm

Crown wrote: That would be the point, as there was no 'Israel' before 1947 (?), it was Palestine.

It's like everytime some one says; 'I don't get why the Arabs are so angry at the Israelis'. My response is always, why don't you carve out a chunk of your country and call that Israel then. Mind you, here I am asking you to do it, not forcing it upon you against your will by UN mandate.

Take a good read through this: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_ ... origin.php

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-13 12:55pm

Each side has a number of options they mysteriously refuse to exercise.

If only Israel allowed sustained suicide bombings to go unpunished, the diplomatic and political rewards they'd reap out of Europe and the United States would be significant. While Tel Aviv has lost many vocal Cold War allies - South Africa, Taiwan, France, and others - over the past two decades, they could easily spin the situation to appear helpless victims suddenly turned to the "light" of compromise.

The Palestinians can win significant victories via passive resistance.

But unfortunately, both sides wish to see an end 100% in their favor. Every time they sit down, they know terrorism and the military retaliation will ruin the talks inside a week.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-06-13 01:01pm

oh not tel aviv, if no one noticed, jerusalem is the goverment capital, which is stupid.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-13 01:44pm

Ace Pace wrote:oh not tel aviv, if no one noticed, jerusalem is the goverment capital, which is stupid.

Israel thinks that it is the capital but the rest of the world thinks its Tel Aviv (thus they keep their embassies there) because they don't recognise Israels claim to Jerusalem.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-06-13 01:58pm

they shouldn't but still, if you want to talk about the goverment, please say the correct city.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2003-06-13 05:15pm

Crown wrote:quote]

That would be the point, as there was no 'Israel' before 1947 (?), it was Palestine.

It's like everytime some one says; 'I don't get why the Arabs are so angry at the Israelis'. My response is always, why don't you carve out a chunk of your country and call that Israel then. Mind you, here I am asking you to do it, not forcing it upon you against your will by UN mandate.

Actually before 1947, There was no country called Palestine. It was just a province under Turkish Ottoman rule and then British rule after winning WW1. And the name Palestinian can be used to decribe anybody who was living in that area before 1947. Not Only arabs were "Palestinians", But a large number of Jews and Turkish who lived there were jews. Jews who lived in Palestine before 1947 were considered to be Palestinians.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-13 05:51pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Crown wrote:quote]

That would be the point, as there was no 'Israel' before 1947 (?), it was Palestine.

It's like everytime some one says; 'I don't get why the Arabs are so angry at the Israelis'. My response is always, why don't you carve out a chunk of your country and call that Israel then. Mind you, here I am asking you to do it, not forcing it upon you against your will by UN mandate.
Actually before 1947, There was no country called Palestine. It was just a province under Turkish Ottoman rule and then British rule after winning WW1. And the name Palestinian can be used to decribe anybody who was living in that area before 1947. Not Only arabs were "Palestinians", But a large number of Jews and Turkish who lived there were jews. Jews who lived in Palestine before 1947 were considered to be Palestinians.

Of course, at that time, Jews represented only 30% of the Palestinian population, and they owned about 6% of the property. Small wonder the other Palestinians were pissed when the UN gave Israel 55% of the territory.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-13 06:00pm

Axis Kast wrote:Each side has a number of options they mysteriously refuse to exercise.

If only Israel allowed sustained suicide bombings to go unpunished, the diplomatic and political rewards they'd reap out of Europe and the United States would be significant. While Tel Aviv has lost many vocal Cold War allies - South Africa, Taiwan, France, and others - over the past two decades, they could easily spin the situation to appear helpless victims suddenly turned to the "light" of compromise.

France stopped supporting Israel in the early 60's.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2003-06-13 07:01pm

Ted C wrote:

Of course, at that time, Jews represented only 30% of the Palestinian population, and they owned about 6% of the property. Small wonder the other Palestinians were pissed when the UN gave Israel 55% of the territory.

Does that population figure include WW2 refugees and Halocaust survivors? And How is it 55%? Places in the areas assigned to the jews like Haifa, Tel aviv, Safad, had clear cut Jewish Majorities. While most of the other Major cities that had Arab majorities were in territory assigned to the Arabs. The only portion assigned to the jews that did not have a jewish majority was the Negev region, which was sparsely populated by bedouins who did not care about the conflict between Jew and Palestinians. When the fighting borke out in 1948, most of the Bedouins living in the Negev sided with the Jews against the Arabs and a large amount of them voluntered in the IDF and served as elite recon units for the IDF forces.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-06-13 08:11pm

This is probably a little late, but what kind of fuck hole god promises you a chunk of hot, dry, desolate desert. Shit, if I was god i would promise you hawaii or florida, maybe somewhere with hot springs like iceland, but the Middle East, come on.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-06-14 02:41am

Vorlon1701 wrote:One question to y'all. Who here's actually been there?

Me. Lived there for 4 years, 1998-2002. Lemme read the rest of this.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2003-06-14 03:00am

One question to y'all. Who here's actually been there?

I live there, and its not a desert.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-06-14 03:10am

Okay, first off Israel is a far cry from worthless desert. The Negev-- where I lived for 2 years-- is largely desert but even the northern reaches of it (up to and past Kiryat Gat-- look on a map) have a rich green growing season. The rest of the desert has patches of green where the JNF (Jewish National Fund) has replanted land-- it is the ONLY place in the world where the desert is receeding instead of advancing.

Second of all, in regards to the Oslo accords-- Israel claimed that the Palestinians violated the Oslo agreements by not reignng in terror; the Pals insist it was Israel's continuing advancement of Settlements that destroyed peace hopes. I actually happen to agree with the Settlement answer, since Settlement did expand after they were supposed to be stopped.

Still a piss poor reason to attack/kill civilians, but hey.....

The Barak offer at Taba was pretty crappy-- it harped about how the Palestinians would get "97%" of their land but failed to mention how the "state" of Palestine would have no army or air force, would have to coordinate any foreign policy with Israeli veto, Israel could overfly Palestine whenever they wanted to but the Pals had to ask permission, and numerous internal roads would exist to give access to Settlements that Palestinians would need 'internal passports' to cross.

A pathetic excuse for a state.

The Road Map for Peace wa spromising, and here's the rub-- the Palestinians refused to negotiate until Israel accepted it. They gambled Israel would NOT accept it since it called for the dismantling of Settlements. They were dumbfounded when Ariel Sharon-- of all people-- actually agreed and dismantled 16 illegal settlements, more planned.

Many of you do not understand that there is a hard-core group within Hamas (PLO military wing) that refuses any peace or any negotiations with Israel. They want to KILL all the Jews or drive them out and have the whole enchilada. NO negotiated peace plan that divides the land will be acceptble to them.

The fucktard Hezbollah has no fucking business being there, in fact. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, Hezbollah ("Party of God") was formed as a resistance group among the Shia'a population there and supplied by Iran. That was their reason for existance. When Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 1999, Hezbollah lost its purpose-- but decide dto keep fighting, since their 'spiritual leader' Sheikh Deir Yassin had created such a huge propaganda machine out of destoying the 'pigs and monkeys' (literal translation) of Israel (ie, the Jews).

The Jews were buying land in the area since the 1800's-- legally. They petitioned for a state and got half and the Arabs refused to go along.

When Israel acquired land it acquired after being attacked. Israel had given back the Golan Heights on many occassions and each time the Syrians used it as a gun platform to shell civilian popultions. Finally Israel took it from them for good.

Israel gave back the Sinai in good faith after signing the treaty with Egypt, Israel also gave back contested land after signing the treaty with Jordan. Israel withdrew from Labanon with NO treaty and has stayed out despite numerous provocation. Israel is willing to negotiate SERIOUS treaties with SERIOUS partners, but there are too many hard cores in the Hamas ranks to adhere to a treaty.

There will be no peace until the Palestinians are willing to reign in their loose cannons-- once that happens, Israel must pull out their Settlements. Both sides must accept that a token few refugees will return to homes in Israel but the majority will be given new homes and a fat wad of cash in the new state of Palestine.

Sharon was implementing the Road Map-- the crazies in Hamas were the ones that blew the deal.