Israel vs Palestine

[jock]

care to share this slanted info with the rest of us?

From said website:
The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer.


...The website insinuates that a large part of the offensive fighting was carried out by the well trained Jordanians. A very odd thing to note while not mentioning the limit of their involvment.[If it goes on to mention it later I apologise, I've not fully read that site for a while]

Which is not true. The Jordanians aims in 1948 were to carve out a portion of the West Bank for itself. It never tried, to the best of my knowledge to fully engage the Israeli army, run it into the sea or more importantly annex ANY territory assigned to the Jews in the UN partition plan. It occupied it's territory and even then, In Uri-Bar Josephs words they were 'the best of enemies'. The Jordanians haed the Mufti of Jerusalem at least as much as the Israelis.

Is it pro-israeli? Yes. Is it RIGHT for being pro israeli? Absolutely

Why is it right?

I respond to idiocy with idiocy.

Actually you openly insult people for no reason. THAT is idocy.

[Meghel]

No flamewars please

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I personally support Israel for a number of reasons;
- A lot of them are former countrymen (I am Dutch by the way)
- The Israeli's needed a state, the UN created Israel for this. If the UN can find a way out of it, I am all ears.
- The Israeli's have been attacked 3! times by their neighbours, last time in 1973.
- The Israeli's are the only democracy in the ME.

Why I do not support Palestine;
- Arafat is a terrorist. See Munchen, the big 4-plane hijacking, the hijacking of the Achille Lauro... etc.
- Who is blowing who up deliberately and without regards of human lives?
- The Palestinians did not agree to the Peace Plan Barak handed them (which was a lot better then what they have now.) So they messed up themselves.
- They celebrated the attacks on the WTC.


Well, those are just a few of my points, but mostly the more important ones.

I support Israel.


With regards,

Meghel

[Darth Yoshi]

From said website:
The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer.

I think Shadow WarChief meant what the name and URL of the website.

[jock]

From said website:
The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer.

I think Shadow WarChief meant what the name and URL of the website.

It's on the first page:)

[ArmorPierce]

I used to be pro-Palestinian until I found this page....

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

As I said, read Mike' s section about it.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Let us look at some facts. Isreal is a democracy, "Palestine" is a brutal dictatorship. Isreal has peace activists, that are members of parliament, including at least 3 pro Palestinian, Arab / Isreali citizens, Pro Isreali Palestinians are regularly hung without trial from the power poles in the "Refugee camps". Israel teaches peacful coexcistance as a regular part of it's state sponsored education. All arabs in the region including the Palestinians regularly spout blood libels about how the Jews use the blood of children in religious rituals. When an arab is killed by the state of Israel, they wring their hand in dismay if the death is by accident , or not clear self defence case, start a legal case, and punish the wrong doer. The arab praise these murderer, and pay blood money to the families, hold celebrations ect... The PA sanctions and finances TV show aimed at children, like "Barny" with pro homicide bomber messages. The Isreali press is free, and regularly critisizes the actions of itself, as all free presses do. The PA press is monolithic and monotonic , as all totalitarian states are. Just listen to them. If they don't manage to do it in the first scentance, then the second one always referes to the "Occupation", in the classic Pravda style. (Just listen to them on TV, and believe what they say. They are being honest. The very exsistance of Isreal is on "occupied" territory) The Oslow "peace accord" is very much like when Spock beamed down to Bela Oxnyx's HQ on "A Piece of the action", (or as I call it, planet on gangsters) for a parlay, and is ambushed. Spock says something to the effect of, you said we had a truce for negotiation purposes, and is answered by the classic line, "Yea, I was hoping you'd be dumb enough to believe that! A couple a more tricks like this, and we'll have all the heaters we need." (not sure of accuacy of second scentance, as it has been a LONG time since I have seen this episode) The occupation is a total red herring anyway, as the PA has been running the show with autonomy, but not sovreinty for the last 8 YEARS! As to the "humiliation of the check points" Hello? why are ther check points? Using ambulences and bombs designed to look like a pregnancy insures the searches must be invasive to be effective As to this "Berlin Wall" crap, it is not any such thing. The Berlin wall was to keep the slaves er citizens af a repressive regime from escaping to the west, not to keep out the west. Getting INTO a police state is easy, just claim to be a buisness man, or peace activist. Getting out, on the other hand? The PA uses the solviet style of repeat a lie often enough, and you get the weak minded to believe it. (The force has a way with week minds, these aren't the driods you're looking for ect) If the Palestinians stopped killing the Isrealis, then all the killing would stop. The moral equivalancy just doesn't wash. I build settlemnts and populate baren land, (Even if you don't think it's mine to build on)you kill my people. I go after your soldiers, you go after my women and children. I call ahead to tell you to get out of the building, it will be toasted, save your people. You try for surprise and maximum carnage, the more helpless the target, the better. How many lies will you swollow whole. The boat full of 50 TONNS of arms doesn't exsist, isn't going to the PA, I didn't know about it. (It's not my, dog, it didn't bite you, and you kicked him first anyway) Give the PA, Hamas, and Hezbolah the dignety they deserve. Believe what they claim as their mission statement. The destruction of Israel. They have said it often enough. Remember, ALL of Israel is "occupied territory." How about the "Jenine masacre?" There was a whopper. 58 total dead in a pitched urbane streel battle. Sounds very low to me. Maybe almost everyone killed were combatants? How about the PA soldiers that forced their way into the church and held christian priests as hostages? Sound like Klingon "honor" But the Palistinians have no f-16s or tanks, or apatches, so they have no other way to achieve their goal. You are right, if their goal is the destruction of Israel and the death of jews. If their goal was peace, the first move is to stop killing. If the arabs wanted to get along with the jews, AND destroy Isreal, they could: Use passive resistance like Gahndi. (This always defeats tollerant democracies) Demand to be annexed, with full voting rights. Hold an election,and win with overwhelming numbers. Bingo, Israel is no longer a jewish state. The down side is, you can't slaughter jews, and you are saddled with the rule of law. At least until, like Nazi Germany, you can change the laws to allow the killing of jews. (Those dumb fucks just can't wait long enough to get what they want. They want it all, and they want it NOW!) Narsisystic rage . Listen to the debates on TV The arabs to a man, put on their best wester face, and pretend to debait. The Isreali reps patiently wait for the other guy to talk, then, when it's their turn to speak, are interupted, and talked over. This, to me, shows they don't seem to understand the concept of give and take, that is needed to peacefuly coexsist. That, and the typical tactics of a police state. Controle the medium, and don't let the opposition make his points uninterupted. The end justifies the means? You can't throw shit with your bare hands, and complain about how unfair it is that people won't shake your hand. This whole conflict is about one irrational belief system wishing to rid themselvse of an other irrational belief system that just wants to be left alone, and feels that having a nation state to protect them from global extermination is their only viable option. Both sides are irrational, but to quote Spock, Madness, however irrational, can have a goal." What do you think the goals of all parties concerned is? Isreal= leave me alone. PA= kill jews. Who has the moral high ground. Relative strength is not the issue. Surely you can recall from your school days (you know, when the very agressive kid with 'littleguy syndrome' would hassle bigger kids that were 'mild mannered', and just wanted to be left alone, and usualy wouldndn't fight back, because they A. just plane didn't like trouble, B. were afraid of the automatic assumption that the smaller weakier kid was in the right. C. were too badly outnumbered) that size does not a bully make. Though it is their favourite advantage/tactic. That, and numerical superiority. (How many arabs, how many jews?) We hear this all the time, in the phrase, "High Tech Bully" How strong to you have to be to lose the option of self defence, or even tit for tat? MY tits are way bigger! (Wait a minute!) If you don't like my tits, stop with your tats.(the visual of this metaphor conjours up visions of sleazly strippers, and battling bitches.) As long as people are people, and these stupid belief systems are in place, (see my post on communism) then these systems will clash. It is both the goal, AND the tactics that determine the morality of these systems. The arab has made a strategic desicion to use terror as their weapon of choice, killing jews (AND detroying the West!) as their goal, with lies and deception as their secondary weapon.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Damn, I gotta use spell check!

[David]

Impressive, I completely agree.

[Shadow WarChief]

Well despite the the spelling errors, you represented my point of view perfectly.

[Carcharodon]

What is the argument of the Palestinians?

Basically, "We were refugees." Not all of them. Many of them came to Palestine (as it was then called) in the first place because Jewish immigrants beginning around 1880 started to develop the land and create something resembling a decent standard of living in the region. There was even a demand, one might say, for Jewish immigrants in the region. (So, right off the bat, we can correctly say that many Palestinians came to Palestine because there were Jews there, and eventually left–why?–because there were Jews there.) Then the Jews started asking for rights, which had been denied them basically everywhere else (or, at best, granted selectively) for 1,400 years. Given the political climate at the time, the only way to accomplish this appeared to be the establishment of a Jewish state. Every other option had been explored over the course of those 1,400 years and had simply failed. You can't suddenly say you intend to change racist attitudes within one generation when they have darkened the world for countless generations. And you can't just do nothing. What was to prevent another holocaust? The stereotype of the "wayward Jew," doomed to wander forever for his refusal to accept Christianity, was the original source of Western anti-Semitism, and the logical way to combat it was to establish a Jewish state.

There was no perfect way to do this. A mere 2% of the Arab world–an area no larger than Taiwan and far less populated–was proposed. No one said the current inhabitants at the time had to leave. But just to be fair, 78% of what had been Palestine was given its independence as well. This ought to have been a good deal. Palestinians had been living under Turkish rule for centuries. Both peoples could have had their freedom. But it wasn't, so we had UN resolution 181. The Jewish homeland was further divided in half to create a second Palestinian state. This one took demographics into account. Areas with majority Arab populations would constitute the Palestinian state, which would have been larger than the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip are today. Palestinians who stayed in Israel were accorded citizenship and continued their lives. Resolution 181 called for this, and the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel explicitly said that Jews wanted to cooperate with their Arab citizenry in peace. And even the Arab states admit that the Israeli Arab community benefited from the economic development Jews brought. Meanwhile, those Arabs who wished to live in the Palestinian state could have gone there, if said state had been allowed to maintain its existance. I won't say that this was completely fair, but it was the fairest option available.

But then, in 1948, we had an invasion. Six Arab armies attacked Israel, as they had been threatening to do for the past year. Yes, many Arabs left their homes. But quite a few of them were enouraged to leave by the Arab armies themselves in advance of any fighting. They were promised both their own homes back and the lands of the Jews once the Arab armies had "exterminated" (sic) the Jewish population. Too bad for them that didn't happen. Of course, many nonetheless got caught in the fighting, and I don't doubt that the IDF committed some actions of its own that were wrong. Tragic, yes, but it was an Arab invasion to start with. People on both sides have always done terrible things in wars of religion. If we are going to condemn these things, we should condemn both sides, not just one.

(And what about the equal number off Jewish refugees evicted from Arab states? Israel took them in when they had nowhere else to go. Why the double standard?)

The cease-fire agreement and the new borders of Israel reflected the military situation in 1949. People say that this was the beginning of the occupation. Well, no one who looks at a map of the UN Partition Plan can seriously conclude that Israel was supposed to maintain those silly borders if her neighbors were going to be hostile. It would have been militarily impossible, with that tiny strip of land in the middle. But if there had been no invasion, Israel wouldn't have had to get bigger, would she? And name me one time in history when a newly formed state was attacked by six armies, gained ground, and was then asked to give back the ground it gained and pay reparations to its attackers?

Oh, and now we come to the most important part. What happened to that second Palestinian state? Well, quite simply, everything that was left of it–the West Bank and Gaza–was gobbled up by Jordan and Egypt, respectively, and used as bases for terrorism. It was the Arab states that took the Palestinians' land from them in the first place. Palestinians were under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation way before they were ever under Israeli occupation. And they weren't treated any better. Yet there was no big Plaestinian liberation movement. That didn't really take off until the 1967 war. The PLO was created in 1964 to destroy Israel, not to liberate the Palestinians. This is completely inconsistent with the current Palestinian claims of being under occuation and asserting their rights to self-determination. If this has always been their aim, why didn't they figure it out until Israel came along? WTF?

For more about refugees, check this out: http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/HISTORIC ... return.asp

I don't necessarily agree with everything in there, but it does bring up many convincing arguments you rarely, if ever, hear.

[Antediluvian]

I'm pretty neutral on the whole situation.

But does anyone else think that if we didn't get our oil from the Middle East, we would have more or less ignored it?

[Pablo Sanchez]

Let us look at some facts.

Next time use paragraphs, please.

In my opinion, neither side is in the right. The Palestinians are approaching their problem from the wrong direction, but the Israelis don't give them much choice in the matter.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

I am very new to this computer stuff, and am still learning. What about your opinion?
To say you believe both side are equly at fault is to moraly equate the two, and thus Is an opinion, albiet a stealth one. Maybe even you don't see it as such. To equate the criminal with the victim, because they are both fighting is rediculous.
Why are they fighting? What do they each want, and how are they going about it .
Isreal = Leave me alone, and stop killing women and children! I target your killers, and try to keep the worst of you away from me
PA= Die jews die. I sneak through your defences, and kill your people, the more innocent, the better.
If I want you dead, and you want to live, let us compromise. I'll just cut off your legs. For now . 'Till later. Sound fair? Oh, and I won't ever stop 'til you are dead. Sound fair?
If we didn't get our oil from the middle east, Isreal would have triumphed years ago.

[Crown]

The only reason that Israel still exists as a state is because the United States requires a friend in the region. It has given un-parallel support to a state that is inherently biggoted and discriminates against religious beliefs not their own.

Did you know that the land that the Israeli parliament and the residence of the Israeli Prime Minister are built upon is owned by the Greek Orthodox church? Did you know that currently Israel is refusing to pay rent, because the current Arch Diacise (spelling?) has been deemed too sympathetic to the Palestine cause? Does that sound to you like a government that allows representation of another Ethnic race to you?

Lets forget the fact that the War on Terror is just another excuse for Israel to slaughter and terrorise an already beaten enemy. And why we are on the subject, while I morn the tragic loss of life that occured on September 11, why did it take America 20 years to attack a coutry that human rights organisations like Amnesty International have been critisisng for all those years?

And if America is truely interested in attacking all terrorist activites then why oh why is Israel supplied by America's military arms industry so that it may continue to slaughter residents in it's own country?

I would like to point out that I am not absolving the Palasitne people of any wrong doing, but that pointing out that we all share a common flaw. We are all from Westernised countries and lets face it we have rarely seen any news footage that openly critisises Israel. That is why I thank God every day for SBS, a free to air channel that shows both sides of the argument, without judgement!

The above is just some bad points about Israel, and there are just as many about Palestine, however we must first recognise how much we have been cencored from first before we begin to truely pass judgement.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

This bit about Isreal slaughtering the innocent is just an other face of the Big Lie technique.Every year, police kill many more time the number of criminals than criminals kill police. Conclusion. The police are murderers. This is the logic you are using.
People who make the moral equivalent of the PA, and the IDF have a broken moral compass. The arabs hate the jews, and take every opportunity to kill them. The Israelis just want to be left alone. The arabs target the weak, and the innocent, the jews seek out the armed and dangerous. Why won't the PA's supporters ever address this point?
Because they can't.
Their silence is deafening.
As to the house and rent. So what? What's it to the Palestinians? Is this the best you can come up with as to Isreali "atrocities"
I'm waiting for someone to bring, up Ariel Sheron, when in Lebanon, and how he didn't forsee the arab christians slaughtering arab muslims, thus showing the ignorance of the difference 'tween responsibility, and blaim.When I was a child, I broke a window. My parents were legaly and financialy responsible not to blaim.
Or claim the second intafada started as a result of him going to see the temple mount.Not metioning the fact that arab school children were let out of class, and bussed to the site, so a "spontanious protest" was triggered.When was a jew,who is a high ranking member of parliament,and recieved advance permision from the PA, forbidden to visit one one the most sacred places in his irrational belief system?
The intafada was Yassirs answer to the most generous offer he was ever going to get, from his weak bargaining posion. No, let me think about it, no counter offer.
Everyone I hear who sides with the PLO, or claims they are moraly the same as Isreal, just has too big of a but. Killing women and children as your goal of choice is bad, BUT.
Crown, your but is to big.
The reason we didn't spend billions of taxpayer dollars, and lose the lives of American soldiers in some bumfucky backwater is as simple as you are. 9/11 has change the way we think. So much, that amnesia about the way we used to think has set in. A highjacked plane used to mean it would go to some alternate destination. sit on the ground, mostly nobody gets hurt,remember?
Military action was seen as the last possible option, and Budda help the incumbant that let some of our boys get hurt, much less killed, for "no good reason over there".
If you factor the the death toll Isreal has been taking, proportional to the population:
USA pop 350M, Isreal pop 3.5 M------ Israel is 1% the size of US (aprox)
multiply Isreali deaths by 100, and death per total pop is equivalent.
Isreal has been absorbing the eqivalent of 1 9/11 attack every month or so, for about six months!
The USA, with the benifit of not dependant on Europe for foreign trade, has shown far less restraint.
If the IDF wanted a bloodbath , there would be no arabs left. They wouldn't have gone house to house, in an urban area, facing well prepared defenders. Thay would have carpet bombed the arabs back to the stone age, excuse me, to death, as they seem to live in the stone age already.
Then, there truly would have been a masacre at Jenin, like one more big lie about the "thousands" of arab deaths. Israel has 200---250 Hiroshima class tactical atomic warheads. They don't need them for this motley crue. They have enough conventional bombs to kill all there enemies. So stop with the blood libels about jews wanting to slaughter MORE arabs. (clever phrasing, have you stopped beating your with yet?)That is the single greatest lie being told about Isreal. Among many.
As to the 3.5G $ USA gives to Isreal, did you know USA gives Egypt 3G$ a year . Jordan gets 2.5 G$ per year, and prior to the scenes of Palastinian arabs dancing in the street after 9/11, they were getting .9 M $ per year.You can bet that stopped quick, once the pictures got out. Most didn't. Borrowing an other Solviet trick, almost all the footage was "confiscated" from the reporters on site. Enough got out though.
I feel the USA should stop sending any foriegn aid to the middle east, jew- arab- whoever. Just to shut people like you down with that red herring. Lots of everyday arabs would suffer but since when has that realy been the reason the arab hate the jews.
While the subject of $$$ is up, ,where have the billions of bucks the PA has received fromit's arab nieghbors gone to? They are in Swiss bank acount, CO buddy Yassir.
Why are the "refugee" camps still full after 25-50 years" Refugee camps, an other big lie. These aren't camps, they are fucking cities! With sewer, electricity and phone lines! If they didn't have these poles, how else would they lynch "colaborators", most of whom are probably pro peace arabs, or political "unreliables." Shitty cities compared to the Isreali cities, but where have all the billions that could have been used for infrastructure upgrade gone to?
I'll give you a hint. Yassir Arrafat owns a several thousand acre Villa in France, where his wife stays that is worth hundreds of millions.
Why do the pro PLO crowd lie so much? Maybe like trekkies gone mad, the truth doesn't suit there needs.
Not so funny joke:" I hear antisemitism is on the rise again in Europe. No, it's just returning back to it's former level. You know, before HITLER gave it a bad name!"
Funny joke: Man walks into a bar, orders a beer. Says to the bartender,, "I am the reincaration of Adolf Hitler, and this time, I'm going to get it right. I'm going to kill ALL the jews, and ten mimes as well." The bartender, puzzled, asks the man, "Ten mimes? Why ten mimes?" The man jumps to his feet and says, "You see, you SEE, NO one cares about the jews!"

[Antediluvian]

The only reason that Israel still exists as a state is because the United States requires a friend in the region. It has given un-parallel support to a state that is inherently biggoted and discriminates against religious beliefs not their own.

Did you know that the land that the Israeli parliament and the residence of the Israeli Prime Minister are built upon is owned by the Greek Orthodox church? Did you know that currently Israel is refusing to pay rent, because the current Arch Diacise (spelling?) has been deemed too sympathetic to the Palestine cause? Does that sound to you like a government that allows representation of another Ethnic race to you?

Lets forget the fact that the War on Terror is just another excuse for Israel to slaughter and terrorise an already beaten enemy. And why we are on the subject, while I morn the tragic loss of life that occured on September 11, why did it take America 20 years to attack a coutry that human rights organisations like Amnesty International have been critisisng for all those years?

And if America is truely interested in attacking all terrorist activites then why oh why is Israel supplied by America's military arms industry so that it may continue to slaughter residents in it's own country?

I would like to point out that I am not absolving the Palasitne people of any wrong doing, but that pointing out that we all share a common flaw. We are all from Westernised countries and lets face it we have rarely seen any news footage that openly critisises Israel. That is why I thank God every day for SBS, a free to air channel that shows both sides of the argument, without judgement!

The above is just some bad points about Israel, and there are just as many about Palestine, however we must first recognise how much we have been cencored from first before we begin to truely pass judgement.

This why I'm neutral toward both sides.

They're both pretty bad and neither is what I would consider good.

That's the way I see it.

[David]

Another good one.

[Crown]

My previous post was in no way shape or form an attack on Jews. It is a pointed reminder to all that all our opinions and views are scewed and biased based on our socio-economic and poilitical backgrounds. You might think that I have tried to throw "Red Herrings', but I don't understand how that is possible in a thread that specifically asked for a view. I do not know what fumes you were inhalling at the time you read my post, but clearly they didn't help your cognitive process at all.

I clearly stated some facts and supplied the resource from which I recieved them. I further went on to publically state that Palastine, or more correctly it's leadership, was in no way shape or form not guilty of it's own sins. How dare you imply that my argument has a big but.

If you even try and tell me that Israeli action is not on a par with the Fascist Germany which slaughtered and butchered Jews, then please let me say that you must have blinders on. Palestinian men are stopped on their way to prayer, they are not treated as equals. They require special permits to cross between and through Israel. Now imagine if ethnic minorities in a predominately white country were required to do the same. What would be the result? Can you say South Africa during apartheid? The fact that this is not happening to Israel speaks of a huge double standard.

And as for the significance of the rent issue is obvious if you had bothered to read and process what I wrote... The rent was refused, because the new Arch Diacis was deemed to be too sympathetic of the Palastinian's plight! What does this have to do with Palastine!? Not all Palasitinians are Muslim, some are Orthodox Christians. The head of state of Israel, flat out refused to recognise the head of a major world religion, on the basis that he's political views weren't on the right track. This should obviously mean to any person with somewhat limited intelligence that freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of belief are not tolerated in Israel. This to me sounds fascist.

Lets not even bring up the issue of how for years Israel has allowed Jewish settlers to tear down Palastine villagers, build new houses and then claim them as their own. This is just another form of government sanctioned apartheid. And if you seriously want me to believe that the refugee camps are a load of BS, you can stop that right now. The standard of living between your average Jewish Israeli is much higher than a Palastinian. To the point that the Palastinian people are living day by day, just trying to stay alive!

And bugger off with that IDA is making an effort to not cause civilian casualties. Every fucking week they are invading a village with 'suspected' terrorist activities with their tanks. The men and boys over the age of 16(?) are led away to 'holding camps', a clever little euphemism, while houses are searched at gun point. How many succeses have Israel had? I could count them on my one hand. They bomb civillian residential areas from afar and dare to call the Palastines terrorist. A mild case of the pot calling the kettle balck! So what are you arguing; if and act of terror is caused by a established military, its all okay?

Israel is a military aggressor. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour without warning, it was a day that will live in infamy. When Israel bombed the nuclear reactor in Iraq without warning; it was a good pre-emptive strike! Mind you the thought of Iraq with Nukes is not something that will help me sleep better at night.

So again you might scream Red Herring! But you miss the point entirely. This is NOT a debate of which side is wrong or right. This thread is just so that we may all express our opinions. And my opinion is this; both sides share a part of the blame, but I personally believe that the bulk of this is Israel's. I also maintain that the only reason Israel exists at all is because western powers need a friend in the region.

I will try and write some more later, but I hope this clears up some things.

[Crown]

The myth that Israel doesn't stoop to Palestine's level

The following is taken from

http://www.middleeastwire.com:8080/stor ... p?id=15312

It shows that the Palastine people are not the only ones that revere martors:

On February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein, an American doctor from Brooklyn, entered the Hebron Mosque and gunned down 29 Muslims who were praying.

Goldstein died during this suicide act of terrorism. But he was not forgotten. Goldstein is buried at the 7,000-strong Israeli settlement of Kiryat Arba. His grave is a popular Israeli shrine in an idyllic, tree-lined park also dedicated to another Israeli terrorist and former New Yorker, Meir Kahane. Like Goldstein, Kahane held dual Israeli citizenship.

One can argue that Goldstein, who expected to die in the attack, is the region’s first suicide terrorist. It was Goldstein’s attack that weeks later provoked the first instance of a Hamas suicide bomb attack. Seven Israelis were killed at Afula, an Israeli village built on a former Palestinian village.

Goldstein’s first suicide terrorist attack isn’t the only one by an Israeli.

We just don’t read about them that much.

Last April, two Israeli settlers rigged a truck filled with propane, gas, metal bits and nails intended to explode near the playground of an Arab girls school. It was set to go off as the children played, but the bombers were caught.

Months earlier, another bomb placed at an Arab school playground did go off, seriously injuring seven Arab children.

Discussion about Israeli settlers and settlements usually revolves around the issue of impeding peace. Few have the courage to call them what they are, terrorists who provoked the first Palestinian suicide bombing.

The settlers teach their children hatred and how to use weapons. Nearly all the settlers carry weapons, too, provoking violence in response.

Goldstein and Kahane are only two of nearly 200,000 Israelis living in settlements built on confiscated Palestinian land.

NOW what does this tell us? Really not much, we don't know why these people did these horrible things, for all we know their family members could have been killed in previous sucide attacks by Palastinians or then again maybe not. All that I am trying to show that we in the West rarely hear the other side of the story, and wouldn't you all agree that this might somewhat colour our view on the matter?

Here is a quote from Moshe Dayan, Israel's celebrated Defence Minister of the 1967 War;

'At least 80% of the skirmishes there [prior to the War] started by us sending a tractor to plough inside the demilitarised zone, knowing in advance the Syrians would start shooting. If they did not, we would tell the tractor to go on until the Syrians got nervous and did start shooting. Then we would use cannons and later even air force.' Dayan added that the decision to occupy the Golan was taken by PM Levi Eshkol, among other reasons, under pressure of a delegation from the Kibbutzim [...], whose true motivation was the desire for more land" (Yedioth Achronot, 17.12.1999).

The occupied Golan has formally been annexed, settled by Israelis, and, contrary to international legislation, Israel has been extensively exploiting its nature resources: "Mey Eden", an Israeli-based mineral water producer, is pumping in the occupied Golan. Typically, even the Yizchak Rabin Monument in Tel-Aviv is made of black basalt from the Syrian Heights.

Again can any one from a westernised country even try to remember hearing about this? The answer is of course no. But what is the point you might ask of me placing this quote here. Well Israel mantains that the 1967 war with Syria started out of a need to protect Israel's citizens against Syrian snipers using the Golan Heights. However this quote demonstrates that 80% of the alledged sniper action occured by Israel provocking the Syrian border guards into action by sending personael into a dimilitarised zone. Yes I can already hear the argument of 'but they were only tractors!', my response is do you even understand the concept of a dimilitarised zone? It is a place of no-man's land that both parties agree to mantain and preserve. It is a border where nothing exists!

Here is a nice one that demonstrates Israel's ability to double talk;

In the Shepherdstown Protocol leaked from the latest peace talks under President Clinton, the Syrian proposal –

"The location of the border has been agreed upon by the parties, based upon the line of June 4th, 1967. The State of Israel will withdraw all its military forces and civilians behind this border"

– was met by the following Israeli version:

"The location of the border has been agreed upon by the parties, taking into account security considerations and other considerations essential to the parties, as well as legal considerations of both parties. The State of Israel will re-deploy all its military forces behind this border."

So Barak's "generous offer" to Syria offered no withdrawal but just "redeployment"; no eviction of Israeli civilians; and did not even mention the 1967 border. (Document published in Ha'aretz, 13.1.2000).

All these demonstrate that we, as much as we like to think so, do not recieve the whole story about any conflict that the west has an interest in.

[Crown]

From the previous post I made about the Israeli man firing upon innocent people praying in a Mosque.... The subsequent sucide bombing done in retaliation... Was the first sucide bombing by Muslim extremest!!!. Wow that means that a Israeli was responsible for the whole fucking mess of today! But the best part of this whole thing is that Goldstein was inspired/motivated/belonged to the Israeli Liduk party! Who are they? Non other than the government of Israel’s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon! This is just too good to be true!

The Israeli Prime Minister is a direct link to the first Palastinian sucide bombing!

[Shadow WarChief]

If you even try and tell me that Israeli action is not on a par with the Fascist Germany which slaughtered and butchered Jews, then please let me say that you must have blinders on.

Really

Since when did the jews in nazi germany start killing civilians by the dozen, weekly, in discos, pizza parlors, shopping malls etc...

Palestinian men are stopped on their way to prayer, they are not treated as equals. They require special permits to cross between and through Israel.

As they should be. When 95% of all suicide bombers coming from the west bank/gaza and are palestinian men, of course they should be treated as suspect.

And if the man has completely innocent intentions, well that's unfortunate. But let's put this in contemporary context now k?

It's the 1960's and several black churches were recently bombed by the KKK and multiple others white supremecist organizations.

Now, the next week, you see a white man trying to get into a predominately black neighborhood with a very large church. Please please tell me that he should not at the very least be questioned.

Can you say South Africa during apartheid?

Can you say the fact that Palestinians are killing Israeli's by the bushel almost every day and have a right to have restrictions on a population, 85% of whom, don't think that bombing a mall is a terrorist act and are trained form birth to hate them out of existance.

And if you seriously want me to believe that the refugee camps are a load of BS, you can stop that right now. The standard of living between your average Jewish Israeli is much higher than a Palastinian. To the point that the Palastinian people are living day by day, just trying to stay alive!

And why are they in the refugee camps instead of making a new life for themselves in another arab country? Because the arab countries DIDN'T WANT THEM THERE. The PLO was created by the other arab countries in an attempt to stop the massive palestinian immigration that was distrupting their economies. The thought that they would be fighting for a state has caused many palestinians to wait in the west bank and gaza for the chance to run over the border into the state of Palestine.

And I should remind you that the PLO was formed in 1964, when the arab states still had control of the west bank and gaza AND east jeruselem. If the arab states did actually want the creation of Palestine, they had 3 years to do it.

But of course history shows that they didn't, they only wanted to divert attention away from the problems of their own country, and so started to further antagonize Israel.

Every fucking week they are invading a village with 'suspected' terrorist activities with their tanks

Ah brilliant. You want the Israeli's to go into an area where they will be surrounded by hostile forces who probably have access to Kalishnikovs, and you want them to go in by foot?

Can you say "dead IDF"? Tanks ensure that small arms fire will not eliminate the entire search force.

And if the Palestinians want the Israelis to stop invading, then stop killing
Israeli civilians.

The men and boys over the age of 16(?) are led away to 'holding camps', a clever little euphemism, while houses are searched at gun point.

Yes. Searhced at gun point. Not blown away. If the Israelis wanted massacre then arabic would only be spoken in hell.


But they don't want a massacre fortunately, so they only brutally searched.

The fact is, terrorist DO live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and you're saying that Israel doesn't have the right to find them and stop them from killing more of their population?

They bomb civillian residential areas from afar and dare to call the Palastines terrorist.

Newsflash my friend. Terrorists LIVE in civilian residential areas and hide behind a human shield of innocent victims.

So what are you arguing; if and act of terror is caused by a established military, its all okay?

And response to un-warranted agression is ok.

Israel is a military aggressor.

Name when they attacked without provocation.

When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour without warning, it was a day that will live in infamy.

When they bombed pearl harbor in the middle of peace talks.....sound familiar?

When Israel bombed the nuclear reactor in Iraq without warning; it was a good pre-emptive strike!

Damn right it was. During the Gulf War, though i'm sure you've "forgotten", Iraq launched scud misslers at Israeli cities. If Saddam was getting nukes, the Israelis, out of fear for their lives have the right to stop him.

I also maintain that the only reason Israel exists at all is because western powers need a friend in the region.

We have several "Friends" Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Of course we all know what the good people of Saudi Arabia have given us recently....


And if I were in control of a western power, I would support Israel regardless of whether or not they would be my "friend"

[Crown]

Originally posted by Shadow WarChief
And why are they in the refugee camps instead of making a new life for themselves in another arab country? Because the arab countries DIDN'T WANT THEM THERE.

Given many recent actions by western nations regarding refugees, my own Australia being one of them I am sad to say, why should it be the Arab neighbours responsability to take on refugees? I mean I totally agree that it is the decent thing to do, but why should they be somehow responsible for the people fleeing a country all by themselves? For some reason Australia chooses 'manditory detention', which I find appauling and yet this on the whole is mostly shrugged off by most western people. But when dealing with the Palastinians fleeing Israel, everyone seems just a little too ready to say; 'But the other Arabs should have taken them in!' Why?

Originally posted by Shadow WarChief
And if the Palestinians want the Israelis to stop invading, then stop killing
Israeli civilians.

Funny I specifically pointed out that the first sucide bombing of a non-military target was in retaliation to a Israeli man, walking into a Mosque during prayer and opening fire upon the innocent people. Perhaps if Israel stopped stealing land and bombing civilian targets the Palastines would be more willing to stop retaliating. That is an interesting word don't you think? RETALIATING Seems to be said a lot on the news when reporting about suicide bombing...Wonder why?

Originally posted by Shadow WarChief
Yes. Searhced at gun point.

Does this strike you as acceptable? I mean yeh lets throught the men into a holding area and then search their houses while holding guns at their wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, etc! Sorry but some people might actually take this, and say hey! Don't you think that you have terrorised these people enough already? You have just removed their loved ones, and now stick a gun in their face!

Originally posted by Shadow WarChief
Name when they [Israel] attacked without provocation.

Some one decided to just skip my other two posts?

Originally posted by Shadow WarChief
Damn right it was. During the Gulf War, though i'm sure you've "forgotten", Iraq launched scud misslers at Israeli cities. If Saddam was getting nukes, the Israelis, out of fear for their lives have the right to stop him.

Once again, you have failed to read the post... Very fustrating, I specifically mentioned that the fact that Iraq might have had Nuclear Weapons was not a thought that would help me sleep safe at night the point was used to demostrate some liberal double standards that we in the West take down without a second tought. I don't recall Israel announcing it's plans to attack the reactor, so really an attack during peace talks is no different than attack during no military conflict!!!

Speaking of peace talks, you ever stop to notice how many Palastine villages seem to be invaded during the eve of a new round of negotiations? This of course applies to suicide bombings but hey I never claimed that the Palastine's were angels.

Originally posted by Shadow WarChief
We have several "Friends" Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Of course we all know what the good people of Saudi Arabia have given us recently....


And if I were in control of a western power, I would support Israel regardless of whether or not they would be my "friend"

Funny, don't try and educate yourself much do you? Both the Saudi and Egyptian governments are seemed to be opressive and detrimental by the majority of their populations. Most of which are young, educated men and women. They see the gaping double standards, the corruption and power hording and both these countries face major social upheavals in the future. It is also interesting to note that you would support Israel regardless..May I ask why?

Please if you intend to reply, read the other two posts, which demonstrate my main point, which I have noticed you have completely neglected to mention. I say this because I credit you with enough intelligence to be able to read and comprehend english. That point being ;

Originally posted by Me
So again you might scream Red Herring! But you miss the point entirely. This is NOT a debate of which side is wrong or right. This thread is just so that we may all express our opinions. And my opinion is this; both sides share a part of the blame, but I personally believe that the bulk of this is Israel's. I also maintain that the only reason Israel exists at all is because western powers need a friend in the region.

And also that ALL of us are coloured on our opinions by our socio-economic upbringings and by the information being broadcasted to us! Why does this scare so many people to just admit that our News is slightly biased?

[fgalkin2]

I just want to say that I'm definately pro-Israel, and will post replies when I'll have the time.

[David]

These kinds of discussions suck you ina nd never let you go, you won't ever have enough time.

[Crown]

Alright, people are starting to anger me now. What the hell is so hard to understand about the fact that my posts are designed to demonstrate how many of the views we have on world affairs are greatly dependant on our own point of view? Obi-wan was truely wise when he said this and I think George was even wiser when he wrote it. Hell I am going to put this on my sig soon.

Anybody would recognise something straight away from this debate... It's not one anyone can win. Simply because when discussing two warring factions and the question is who is right? The answer inevitably is not simple and one sided. I don't care whether or not Israel or Palastine is right. I am not Israeli or Palastinian. What I do care are the innocent lives that get caught in the middle.

However while I feel that this is what the majority, if not all, people on the board agree with me on this. For some reason you are expected to treat the state of Israel with 'kid' gloves. The second I epress a differing point of view the first thing that happens is I get labeled as an Antisemitic who would ridicul the horrible and sensless deaths of 6 million Jewish people during the holocaust. How fucking dare anyone try to dismiss my claims under a false accusation of racisism!

Why if you ask anyone on the street about what they think about Islamic governments, they respond with it's bad. But about a Jewish government, you are a Antisemitic who wishes Hitler killed all the Jews? Does everyone feel that an honest observation of countries political fundamentalisim is a no go area? Yes but only for Israel, Islamic states go ahead and knock yourself out. Listen up people, for the most of us we, in the west have managed to have grown up in what are deemed as secular states. Israel and Islamic fundamentalist states are not in anyway shape or form secular! To become an Israeli citizen all one needs to be is a Jew. You don't have to be born in the country, you don't have to have a father born in the country, you don't have to immigrate and apply for a citizenship, you just have to belong to one certain religious belief structure and you are admitted.

Now for some reason this is okay, but I would imagine if it were Australia who started reintroducing it's old White Christian only pollicy, racist labels would be slung on her in a heart beat. And right they should. But why do we have such a blind spot for Israel?