A ST vs SW debate (at another forum)

[Ender]

Why oh why ohe why do people trat things like some kind of crusade, that this place is some light on a god damned hill, and we must set forth to educate all the unbelievers?

Let other boards fight their own fights.

And alyeska has a definate point about the treatment newbies to the debate scene recieve here.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm inclined to agree. Especially with the "We need Mike" part. Discussion here might be fine, but its not like we need to go out on missionary work.

[Howedar]

I concur.

[TurboPhaser]

Uh...Heap, I doubt many people will be signing up here. If you check, there's now a ten dollar fee to sign up if you're using an email account like Hotmail.

Anyways, could I have the exact quote from BoBW when the use of a laser by the Borg is mentioned? Someone there is asking for it.

There isnt one. At least not from BoBW. Its from Q-Who, and the Enterprises shields were down at the time. So there was nothing stopping the beam cutting the Enterprise's hull.

[jegs2]

http://www.blizzforums.com/showthread.p ... adid=19915

Someone actually things Trek would win just because they have cool ships and storylines. We really need a wtf smiley...

IMO, let'm think what they want, so long as they don't spout their nonsense here...

[Eleas]

Oh shut the fuck up. You people are such fucking idiots some times. You don't make any allies when you go to other forums and attack someone rather then trying to educate them. Rather then create a new friend and possible convert you create an enemy who will try and rally others to the cause.

I am sick and fucking tired of some of you peoples attitudes when it comes to people not as well versed in the STvsSW debates. You make me sick.

And you, Aly, care too much about this debate on an emotional level to see what it truly is. Penis envy.

Nobody debates this subject to befriend their opponents. It's a hobby, and you're treating it as some sort of sacred mission. I have to say it's almost as disturbing as when Kynes put up RSA's stats on the net.

I'm not saying you're acting like an asshole or anything, cause you're not. But you're missing the fun part. You're investing too much emotion into what is no more than a silly little game. And that, I think, is just a recipy for disaster.

[Tribun]

Oh yes. Something to take apart! That should be interesting.

Omg starwars Owns Startrek

Why?

Star Trek would win. While Star Wars is great and all, Star Trek just rocks. I love the storylines, they are much more original then SW.

Why should that be a factor for winning? Somehow reminds me of the "The good guy always win"-myth.

I mean, two Death Stars? the Emperor was supposed to be smart!

He WAS smart. The first one was only destroyed though a very luky shot into a weakness, which is otherwise unattackable.
The second Death Star wasn't even finished, when attacked, and ony a very unbelivable portion of luk an overconfience helped the rebels to succeed with the mission.

and yes, the Jedi are awesome, but the Borg could tear them to pieces, think about it. Lightsabers are energy. Borg adapt. Jedi would kill a few Borg each (different frequencies on the Lightsabers) and then UH-OH! Shields! DAMMIT!! Yes, with their powers they could kill a few more, but how many Borg are there? A couple TRILLION??? How many Jedi at their height? 100,000? Damn they just got owned

Hm, smells like a strawman attack. He never says, why the Jedi ONLY would go against the Borg. Blasters would make confetti of Borg shields, and that suggests, that it even comes to ground battles. More likely, the cubes would be shreddered to dust or knocked out by ion cannons, even befor the drones could act.
Scond, there is the typical "The Borg can adapt to everything"-myth. Mike discribed that better on his site, than I can.

Brog have energy weapons too you know.

And when did they use them? Never, apart from the rouge Borgs of Lore.

SW uses lasers as well. It was stated that the lasers "couldn't even penetrate the shields around Enterprise's main computer, let alone the outer shielding." And you have to add in a couple of other factors: Q and Time Travel. (Yes I did go to those sites. I would LOVE to know where they are getting their information, including the Gigawatt ratings) ST has time travel. Repeated episodes show that if the galaxy is in danger, time travelers from the future WILL go back and help out. How hard would it be for them to go back and keep blasting apart SW races, or even their first shipyards, ensuring that they would NEVER be able to attack the ST galaxy? Not too difficult. Also, Q could just snap his fingers and poof! LUKE SKYWALKER IS DEAD! P.S.

There are thee parts that are important:

1.)Ah yes, the whole "Laseres can't penetrate the shields"-myth. I really wonder if it will die out ever. I have two things to say:
-Borg lasers not seem to have problems, cutting the Enterprise like a thanksgiving turkey.
-Turbolasers are tibanna-gas based plasma cannons, not lasers, so even if we assume, that St shields ARE immune to lasers, plasma cannons do havoc on ST shields and ships, as often seen.

2.)The whole time trave mumbo-jumbo that trekkies chew out every time, they seem to loose. Again, Miks site is there better in explaining, than I am.

3.)The whole superbeing thing. This time the change the rules of the game in the middle of the game. This whole fallacy is also better explaind by Mike on his site.

Anyway, Trek would win just because of Species 8472, six of their ships, around 200 meters in length are equal to the full destructive might of the Death Star, and the Borg, a race that constantly adapts and assimilates all species they come in contact with

8472 is mostly hot air, they were cowards, and surely they would ran away as soon as some of thier ships were smashed by one or two star destroyers.
And again the Borg-adapt-myth.

I realize that there are numerous tech manuals for both Trek and Wars, but over the years I've learned to only accept ON-SCREEN references, sorry

FINALLY! The on-screen evidence alone shows that TLs are clearly NOT lasers, and that SW is by FAR stronger.

In the previous thread, I've already proven Starwars would loose to Startrek. Even S8472 could take on the entire Empire

I hope this is a joke.....

Starwars has 5 movies, 6 soon, and a buncha books, last i checked star trek has like i dunno, 400+ books? More? does SW have that?

No, but most of the ST-books are crap and not even worth the paper. But this is not important, because Paramount says, that the books all don't count as canon.

Also comparing SW and ST is kinda odd becuase SW is more fantasy based, while ST has a more scientific base

Ah-ha! A worshipper of technobabble and the butchering of sience in ST!

Anyways if the entirety of ST vs'd the SW, ST would win.

Well, if a superior, united galaxy fights against a fractured, inferior galaxy, the outcome should be clear. Some seem not to think so far....

Blah whatever. Lasers vs shields (st) would not even hurt them, nukes dont hurt, and there are species worse the 8472, the Havoc for example, from the Invasion! series

The laser-thing, we already know. The thing with the nuke is really funny. Seems he never watched the TOS-episode "Balace of terror", were a romulan nuke nearly destroys the Enterprise.
About 8472, see above...

I do enjoy these threads though.. fun to read

For mee too, great stuff to take apart.

Where do you have this information? In the newer books, some bye Shatner himself mention brand new ships, stealth, "super commando suits" etc...

Again, this books are not more than loo paper, when measured if canon or not....

Somehow its easy for SW to claim superiorty becuase its never really understood in the movies how powerful certain things are

Well, a civilisation, which can build a planet-destroying weapon should be clearly superior....


This was really fun....[/quote]

[Alyeska]

And you, Aly, care too much about this debate on an emotional level to see what it truly is. Penis envy.

Bullshit. I don't give a damn about the debate, I am fucking pissed that some people here on SD.net act like Howler Monkeys and throw shit at any newbie who doesn't know what we know. The fact that several people agree with me shows that there is a problem.

Nobody debates this subject to befriend their opponents. It's a hobby, and you're treating it as some sort of sacred mission. I have to say it's almost as disturbing as when Kynes put up RSA's stats on the net.

Hold on a moment.

I'm not saying you're acting like an asshole or anything, cause you're not. But you're missing the fun part. You're investing too much emotion into what is no more than a silly little game. And that, I think, is just a recipy for disaster.

First you say that this isn't a touchy feely thing and that no one does it to make friends. Then you say its all about having fun and its just a silly game... Does that mean you consider it fun to make a game out of attacking other people who disagree with you?

[Eleas]

And you, Aly, care too much about this debate on an emotional level to see what it truly is. Penis envy.

Bullshit. I don't give a damn about the debate, I am fucking pissed that some people here on SD.net act like Howler Monkeys and throw shit at any newbie who doesn't know what we know. The fact that several people agree with me shows that there is a problem.

I agree, but you seem to invest far too much of yourself in the debates, is what I'm saying.

Nobody debates this subject to befriend their opponents. It's a hobby, and you're treating it as some sort of sacred mission. I have to say it's almost as disturbing as when Kynes put up RSA's stats on the net.

Hold on a moment.

I'm not saying you're acting like an asshole or anything, cause you're not. But you're missing the fun part. You're investing too much emotion into what is no more than a silly little game. And that, I think, is just a recipy for disaster.

First you say that this isn't a touchy feely thing and that no one does it to make friends. Then you say its all about having fun and its just a silly game... Does that mean you consider it fun to make a game out of attacking other people who disagree with you?

Yes, I suppose that's what I'm saying. Because in the end, it doesn't really matter that much, does it? It's a sandbox game.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, even though it seemed I succeeded. All I'm saying is, watch your blood pressure. Assholes come, assholes go, and in these debates it might be best just to smirk and ignore the idiots instead of giving them the satisfaction of knowing they pissed you off.

[Slartibartfast]

Uh...Heap, I doubt many people will be signing up here. If you check, there's now a ten dollar fee to sign up if you're using an email account like Hotmail.

Anyways, could I have the exact quote from BoBW when the use of a laser by the Borg is mentioned? Someone there is asking for it.

There isnt one. At least not from BoBW. Its from Q-Who, and the Enterprises shields were down at the time. So there was nothing stopping the beam cutting the Enterprise's hull.

Wrong, because it's been stated in the show, via the same dialogue that causes the "no-laser" nonsense, that it's the NAVIGATIONAL deflector what blocks lasers, creating a sub-space nadion no-limits fallacy effect.

[YT300000]

Anyways, could I have the exact quote from BoBW when the use of a laser by the Borg is mentioned? Someone there is asking for it.

Q Who:

WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.
RIKER: They're carving us up like a roast.
PICARD: With whatever force you need, terminate that beam ... fire!

[Darth Servo]

I just HAVE to join in over there. Its what I do.

[Montcalm]

http://www.blizzforums.com/showthread.p ... adid=19915

Someone actually things Trek would win just because they have cool ships and storylines. We really need a wtf smiley...

Anyways, I can take this guy out (with some help from the experts) or you can do it yourself.

I think that guy need to watch SW he`ll see SW has cool looking ships too.

[mauldooku]

That was certainly quick, Servo

[Darth Servo]

That was certainly quick, Servo

When you got it, you got it

[Lord of the Farce]

With those going on and on about Borg Adaptation/Assimilation and how they don't have a problem handling the diverse number of species they've come across and have no problems with, just point out how diverse they really are when they've encountered less than 10,000 species in all the time they've been around, and then are put to face a civilisation that has some of the best technology of over a million species combined.

And now, we shall return to our regular programming.

[TurboPhaser]

Uh...Heap, I doubt many people will be signing up here. If you check, there's now a ten dollar fee to sign up if you're using an email account like Hotmail.

Anyways, could I have the exact quote from BoBW when the use of a laser by the Borg is mentioned? Someone there is asking for it.

There isnt one. At least not from BoBW. Its from Q-Who, and the Enterprises shields were down at the time. So there was nothing stopping the beam cutting the Enterprise's hull.

Wrong, because it's been stated in the show, via the same dialogue that causes the "no-laser" nonsense, that it's the NAVIGATIONAL deflector what blocks lasers, creating a sub-space nadion no-limits fallacy effect.

Uh ok, i was just clearing up about where the quote came from.

And the shields WERE down when thre laser hit the hull. The Borg tractor beam drained the shields before hand.

Q Who:

WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.
RIKER: They're carving us up like a roast.
PICARD: With whatever force you need, terminate that beam ... fire!

Uh, wasnt Picrad referring to the tractor beam?

I seem to remember that after Worf said the laser beam thing, Riker said 'They are carving us up like a roast'.

[TurboPhaser]

*smacks head*

Sorry, didnt notice the bit from Riker in ya quote.

But i still think Picrad was referring to the tractor beam primarily. And why is the fact that a laser was cutting into the hull relevant? As i said, the tractor beam drained the shields before the laser was activated.

[Typhonis 1]

nman are some of the people there dense...though I think what Then Admiral is stating is that only onscreen evidence may be used in that debate .If so use Mikes 5 minute bashing

[Ender]

This Admiral guy wan't only movie canon facts? Ok with me.

The Death Star destroyed Alderaan with a blast of energy rated at 1E38 joules based on the ezcape velocity of the debris. We also know from the movie that it can fire twice in one day. To shoot low end, lets assume that it takes 23 hours for it to recharge a full blast. This would give it's reactor an output of 1.2E33 watts.

The reactor bulb of an ISD is 140 meters in diameter. Assuming it is a sphereical reactor, this gives it a volume of 1436755 meters. According to the schematics we are shown in ANH, the diameter of the DS1s reactor is 36% of it's totaol diameter. Since it is canonically 160 km in diameter, that gives it a volume of 1E14 meters. Now scale the power of the DS1 down to the ISD and you get a power of 1.7E25 watts. How this power is generated is never explained in the movies, but it is shown, so like heat dissapation arguments, it is irrelevent.

Now how much of that output is directed towards the shielding? We don't know. But even if it is only 1% that gives the ISD the shielding coming in at 1.7E23 watts, or 40 Teratons worth of shielding. This might be seen as contradictory with the ESB asteroid sequence if not for the observed fact about SW shielding: very slow moving objects can pass through. This was observed in TPM when the droid army walked through the shields, when Anakin flew into the Trade Federation Command Ship's hanger, when the Destroyer droids stuck their guns through their shields, and would explain how the Imperial assault forces bypassed the shields at Echo Base in ESB. Further keep in mind that that ship was previously damaged by the Ion Cannon attack. So there is no necessary contradiction, especially in light of the fact that in ROTJ we saw and read that shields halted the impact of faster moving rebel fighters.

In the ESB novel it states that the Executor is 5 times more powerful then an normal ISD (incidently this is the source of the 5 mile fallacy, but that is neither here nor there). This would give it a shield rating of 200 TT. In ROTJ the entire remaining of the Rebel fleet concentrates their firepower on htis ship. In a sequence of a few seconds the command ship loses its shields. The movie only whows 2 task forces of 6, but the novel state there were "dozens" (presumbaly on the underside of in a position we could not see). TO keep thsi low end lets us assume that this menas 36 ships. We know that the bulk of the rebel fleet was lesser ships like trasnports, frigates, and blockade runners. To make this low end we will assume that all the ships were Mon Cal cruisers of Home One's size (though none were close to it). Home One mounted 42 HTLs over it's entire surface. To make this low end we will assume that all 42 were brought to bear from all ships (impossible, I know). Let us further assuem that all guns were firing at once (something never observed) and that their refire rate was the same as the surface guns on the Death Star, once per second (faster then any other refire rate, but it keeps this low end). If we assuem a time duration of 5 seconds along with the above assumptions, this means that TLs are ~27 Gigatons per barrel per shot.

Sublight acceleration for ISDs is easy to gage from the movies. In ROTJ Leia looks at a tactile screen in the bunker showing the movements of the Imperial and Rebel fleet. the given scale on the screen is 100 km per box, giving the Imperial fleet a velocity of 60 KM sec. We then see them deccelerate to engage the Rebels in 2 seconds. This gives them and acceleration of ~3000 G.

Hyperdrive speed can also be determined from the movies. For a low end the ROTJ novel states that the Rebel Fleet was "hundreds" of light years away from Endor when they lept. For low end let us assume that this is 200 LY. As an absolute maximum, let us say that the bunker was a kilometer from the ridge that the the Rebels were on when they were preparing for their attack. According to US Army manuals, in deciduous forest, with at most light to medium foilage and visibility measured in 10's - 100's of metres (such as the forest moon of Endor) fully tactical and movement with maximum stealth makes for traveling at 1km per hour at the slowest. This means that the Rebel fleet traveled at 1752000 C. Note that the travel time of Darth Maul from Coruscant to Tatooine is much faster.

Imperial fleet size is easily calculated by the movies. General Dondana said in ANH that the DS packed a firepower greater then half the starfleet. As this was a military briefing about the Death Star, he would have been speaking without hyperbole about the entire station. The Output of the Death Star's main gun is 1E38 joules. And the output of an ISD is 1.7E25 joules. This would make "greater then half the starfleet" equal 5.88 trillion ships. As there is no evidence that the Executor class ws in production at this time, assuming ISDs is a safe alue. Further, while ther would be a number of lesser ships, going with them only serves to increase Imperial fleet size.

So, going by the movies and movie novelizations alone, the Imperial fleet consists of ~6 trillion ships with 40 TT shields, dozens of 27 GT cannons, that can pull 3000 G in sublight acceleration and move at 1.75 million C for FTL travel.

EU undermines the movies more then it helps it. Suck it down "Admiral".

[Slartibartfast]

Wrong, because it's been stated in the show, via the same dialogue that causes the "no-laser" nonsense, that it's the NAVIGATIONAL deflector what blocks lasers, creating a sub-space nadion no-limits fallacy effect.

Uh ok, i was just clearing up about where the quote came from.

And the shields WERE down when thre laser hit the hull. The Borg tractor beam drained the shields before hand.

The shield and the deflector are two separate mechanisms. They never "raise" the navigational deflector, it's always on, and it's pretty much useless against weapons. But somehow it magically blocks lasers ("That won't even penetrate our navigational deflector!"). When the Borg drained the Enterprise's SHIELDS, the laser simply ignored that "fact" that the deflector protects from lasers, and carved it like a roast.

The "navigational deflector" is the thingamajig that protects the ship from dust and particles that would totally destroy it during high speeds. It's different from the shields they use in combat.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Its not necessary to rely on making observations of only the on-screen facts since TheAdmiral ditched parts of canon out of the window. If he wants to take that road we can as well start denouncing everything we
dont like in Trek as not being canon anymore. Despite my trying to hold insulting the people like TheAdmiral and Neo there i cannot do it anymore. TheAdmiral and Neo both are fucking ignorant morons. Their debating style closes the one of a retard by just ignoring the parts in canon they dont like

Ender: Your analysis is a good one and i agree it propably would work against some other guy who ignores everything except the movies. But this Admiral fucktard is a different one, he would propably ditch your entire analysis out of the window in basis of "its a fictional universe" or some other bullshit like that without even responding to it. Its a wasted effort to even try and bring the matter to them on their terms.

[Sarevok]

Then you should point out that there are episodes that have shown the Enterprise raising shields against Laser....

And just stab him with the whole "Guess what the Borg use as their primary weapon?"

Seriously...he's your humdrum average screaming fanboy.

I once made a post about a screenshot that actualy shows a borg cube hitting the Enterprise with a laser beam. Check it out at http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=.

Give him the TL's are plasma, not lasers. Also mention that the Borg use lasers, and they kicked the E-D's ass.

Turbolasers are not plasma. There has been a significant debate over this all over the internet and not just this site.

The laws of physics which determines the color of superheated gas such as plasma does not allow for a green spectrum. Turbolasers can not be plasma because they are green. IMHO turbolasers are particle cannons that fire an unknown type of low mass particle.

Oh my fucking god. Someone just posted a link to Darkstars site. That's it, we need Wong. Only he can give a proper raping.

Graham Kennedies DITL is one of the most popular star trek sites on the internet. You will amazed that so many references to it exists all over the internet. Go to any website that discusses star trek and you will likely come across a link to it. Lucky for us Graham Kennedy is not a bad debator like Darkstar. But on the bad side people are actualy reading the portal and liking it. Simply unbelievable !

2. He is using a slippery slope fallacy of that obviously a laser cannot be that powerful. If I had a grenade doing 200 GT....who cares what it's called and looks like.

He is quite correct. The physical properties of matter and the energy required for such a laser would make it impossible to build one.

But this is sci-fi that is being discussed. How do 200 gigaton lasers work is not a concern the same way as how a hyperdrive works is not a concern.

Also turbolasers are not lasers so his fallacy does not hold in the first place.

I'm surprised that no one has yet to ask for my help. Wouldn't I make a great resource? Shit man, I am even listed as a guest author on DarkStars page.

Calm down people, give me a chance to talk to the guy.

Aleyska you are one of the best trekkies I have ever seen. You are very logical, good mannered and do not hesitate to accept your mistakes should you make any.

Do not bother about DarkStar. Make your own website on star trek. With the wealth of knowledge you have on the subject I am sure it would be a great site.

Oh shut the fuck up. You people are such fucking idiots some times. You don't make any allies when you go to other forums and attack someone rather then trying to educate them. Rather then create a new friend and possible convert you create an enemy who will try and rally others to the cause.

I totaly agree. The rude and indecent responses of some people on this site kept me away from registering for a long time. Though I knew stardestroyer.net for two years and used the message board from july (around the time it started) I did not post because of the way some responded to new members.

Why oh why ohe why do people trat things like some kind of crusade, that this place is some light on a god damned hill, and we must set forth to educate all the unbelievers?

Let other boards fight their own fights.

And alyeska has a definate point about the treatment newbies to the debate scene recieve here.

This star wars vs star trek debate takes place on so many sites all over the internet. It is simply impossible that everyone would listen to what members at stardestroyer.net say. Most people do not care about this debate and they just argue about it for fun. This is unlike SD.net where star wars vs star trek has become part of daily life for many members.

[TurboPhaser]

I once made a post about a screenshot that actualy shows a borg cube hitting the Enterprise with a laser beam. Check it out at http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=.

Uh, that is not clear evidence.

1. There is nothing said in FC to say that is a laser beam.
2. IF i remember FC correctly, a second or so after that cap was taken, the beam was clearly a tractor beam.
3. Whatever the beam is, the shields are stopping it.

That thread title 'Very clear evidence' is really not very accurate.

And wow, if that is a laser, which it most likely is not, yes the Enterprise is being hit, so what? Being able to be hit by weapon proves nothing if you want to gauge its effectivness agaisnt its shields.

[His Divine Shadow]

I agree with Alyeska on the behaviour of some people, it's really aggrevating and it looks really sad.
To me it seems alot like a strange kind of xenophobic "me too" mentality mixed with hero worshipping, and frankly, I do expect better behaviour of people on this forum given that we know(or atleast knew during the time of the posts I've just read) next to nothing about what kind of person he is.