Why is the First Cause Argument Flawed?

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 02:25am

Darth Wong wrote: Lying doesn't improve the strength of your position.

Then you should cut it out, Wong.

Nowhere did you define "great atheist debater"

Every time you tried to broaden the definition of what I was discussing - that knowledge of basic arguments like FC was necessary to be considered a great atheist debater - I reigned you in.

You tried to change the terms to "one who can use reason to shred FC" and I explained several times that's not what I was discussing.

So quit lying Wong. It's just embarassing for you.

nor did you directly challenge the definition that such a person can be defined by having the skills necessary to get the job done.

posted at 8:39 CST
"They can discuss it all they want. It doesn't mean they can discuss it competently, which was the criteria."

posted at 8:46 CST

"A person may be a good natural athlete but he can't claim to be a great football player if he doesn't know the basic rules of the game."

posted at 8:51 CST

"It's not a question of whether one can tear apart FC once described, it's whether one can be described as a great atheist debater if they don't even have familiarity with Day One arguments like FC."

posted at 10:12 CST

" Sure someone who can reason can tear FC apart once they hear it, but that still doesn't make them a great atheist debater. "

Now, are you going to continue with your dishonesty, or spin again?

You aren't the former Iraqi Information Minister, are you? You're quite good at claiming victory.

Oh, that's a fresh flame. How original. No really. It's funny. And fresh. I'm sure you're the first person to take the example of the IIM, and apply it in a different context. Kudos!

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-06-14 02:28am

Darth Wong wrote:How did Aquinas supposedly prove that the first mover must be sentient? You allude to this but do not support it.

I never stated that I accepted his proof as valid. However, the poster was making an erroneous statement and I needed to correct him.

Don't be ridiculous; are you going to argue that the concept of quantization must also have been initiated by some sentient being?

Causality is the basis of everything in our universe. All movement and all the laws of nature can only be so long as causality is. As for the first cause being sentient, I never claimed such a thing.

You're missing the point, which is that you are still arguing that the universe must have been caused by an external agent, and you have no basis for that claim.

Isn't the "location" of the first cause necessarily a subjective interpretation. Whereas I may see it as external -- which I don't -- one could just as easily proclaim it as being a part of the universe. It makes no difference. What's important is that the first cause exists, and thus God exists.

Answer was already given earlier, in discussion of gravitational collapse. External agents are not necessary.

Yes, they are. Your grasp of basic logic is fundamentally flawed.

If you define "God" as the physical universe, fine. Of course, you know perfectly well that the "first mover" argument is designed to prove the existence of a much different kind of God.

And you know perfectly well that Aquinas does not claim the first cause is the Christian God. He wrote many other arguments for that purpose. The first cause argument itself, as least the initial parts of it, is valid and sound.

The soundness of the argument is in no way mitigated by not having a shred of support and being based on a groundless leap in logic?

Do you enjoy reveling in ignorance?

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-06-14 02:32am

Here is a variation of the argument I posted on another site:

1) An infinite regression of potential causes actualized would preclude the existence of the universe.
2) The universe exists.
3) Therefore, there is only a finite regression of actualized causes.
4) Therefore, the universe has a first cause, a cause which cannot be the effect of another cause, i.e., it is uncaused.
5) The uncaused first cause is what men understand to be God (the Creator).

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 02:41am

EvilGrey wrote:Here is a variation of the argument I posted on another site:

1) An infinite regression of potential causes actualized would preclude the existence of the universe.
2) The universe exists.
3) Therefore, there is only a finite regression of actualized causes.
4) Therefore, the universe has a first cause, a cause which cannot be the effect of another cause, i.e., it is uncaused.
5) The uncaused first cause is what men understand to be God (the Creator).

Yes, at FreeRepublic.com, where you post as aquinasfan and alternately GreyMatter.

Stupid crypto-religious freak.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 02:44am

Wow, a Stork Fucker vs Wong thread?

Oh I predict victory for Wong in .0004 seconds...

and:

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 02:50am

^^

I speak the word "freak" and look what appears.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 02:51am

The Question wrote:^^
I speak the word "freak" and look what appears.

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 02:52am

^^^

Who's your daddy?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 02:53am

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 02:55am

^^^^

Nothing could be father from the truth.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 02:56am

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1.1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

Stop dancing around the issue by making stupid snide comments, either
admit that you don't know jack shit, or PROVE your boast.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 02:58am

Don't go and poppa gasket.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 03:00am

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1.1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

Stop dancing around the issue by making stupid snide comments, either
admit that you don't know jack shit, or PROVE your boast.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 03:03am

~A doo doo doo,
A Da Da Da,
That's all I want to say to you...~

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 03:04am

Funny thing: All I have to do is type CTRL-V and cut n paste. Storky on the
other hand, has to spend at least 30 seconds thinking up a reply. LOL, who's
dancing to someone's tune now

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 03:04am

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1.1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

Stop dancing around the issue by making stupid snide comments, either
admit that you don't know jack shit, or PROVE your boast.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 03:06am

Keeping pawing away.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 03:06am

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1.1

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

Stop dancing around the issue by making stupid snide comments, either
admit that you don't know jack shit, or PROVE your boast.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 03:08am

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-14 03:09am

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1.2

Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.

We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

Stop dancing around the issue by making stupid snide comments, either
admit that you don't know jack shit, or PROVE your boast.

Funny thing:
All I have to do is hit CTRL-V and cut n paste this missive. Storky on the
other hand, has to spend at least 30 seconds thinking up a reply.

LOL, who's dancing to whose tune now?

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-14 03:11am

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-06-14 03:36am

The Question wrote:Yes, at FreeRepublic.com, where you post as aquinasfan and alternately GreyMatter.

Stupid crypto-religious freak.

Ummm, no. One would be inclined to think that you and Wong would be best buds considering your preference for a Godless, inherently-destructive ideology.

Specialist · Post by **Specialist** » 2003-06-14 03:42am

EvilGrey wrote:Here is a variation of the argument I posted on another site:

1) An infinite regression of potential causes actualized would preclude the existence of the universe.
2) The universe exists.
3) Therefore, there is only a finite regression of actualized causes.
4) Therefore, the universe has a first cause, a cause which cannot be the effect of another cause, i.e., it is uncaused.
5) The uncaused first cause is what men understand to be God (the Creator).

And if that "uncaused first cause" isn't sentient, would you still refer to it as god?

EvilGrey · Post by **EvilGrey** » 2003-06-14 03:45am

Specialist wrote:
EvilGrey wrote:Here is a variation of the argument I posted on another site:

1) An infinite regression of potential causes actualized would preclude the existence of the universe.
2) The universe exists.
3) Therefore, there is only a finite regression of actualized causes.
4) Therefore, the universe has a first cause, a cause which cannot be the effect of another cause, i.e., it is uncaused.
5) The uncaused first cause is what men understand to be God (the Creator).

And if that "uncaused first cause" isn't sentient, would you still refer to it as god?

Yup.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-14 03:59am

EvilGrey wrote:
Ummm, no. One would be inclined to think that you and Wong would be best buds considering your preference for a Godless, inherently-destructive ideology.

Yes, the inherent destructiveness of being an atheist is plain for all to see.