Why is the First Cause Argument Flawed?

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EvilGrey
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Post by EvilGrey »

Vympel wrote:
EvilGrey wrote:
Ummm, no. One would be inclined to think that you and Wong would be best buds considering your preference for a Godless, inherently-destructive ideology. :D
Yes, the inherent destructiveness of being an atheist is plain for all to see. :roll:
Despite your sarcasm, you are quite right. One only need to look to Stalin for proof. Though atheists would like to claim everything but atheism is responsible for his behavior, the fact is a man's belief, or lack thereof, in God profoundly shapes who he is and how he acts. :D
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Post by Vympel »

EvilGrey wrote: Despite your sarcasm, you are quite right. One only need to look to Stalin for proof. Though atheists would like to claim everything but atheism is responsible for his behavior, the fact is a man's belief, or lack thereof, in God profoundly shapes who he is and how he acts.
"Everything but" atheism? Sorry- he was an authoratarian communist dictator who also happened to be a major paranoid. Fucking retard.

Indeed, it has a very positive effect, seeing as atheists aren't keen to kill and oppress people who don't share their non-belief in your invisible sky pixie, and don't subscribe to atrocious fundamentalist 'morals'. Perhaps you'll educate us as to how belief in God shaped the actions of a certain 19 people on September 11, you stupid fuck? Just to choose a recent example, though I've got a few thousand years worth- where, unlike your anemic false analogy, I can point *directly* to religion.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

EvilGrey wrote:Despite your sarcasm, you are quite right. One only need to look to Stalin for proof. Though atheists would like to claim everything but atheism is responsible for his behavior, the fact is a man's belief, or lack thereof, in God profoundly shapes who he is and how he acts.
In a word, bullshit.

Stalin's atheism had about as much to do with his bloodthirsty propensities as the fact that he was Russian.

BTW, Joseph Stalin was raised a good Catholic as a boy. As was Hitler. And it was we "Godfearing" Americans who first employed nuclear weapons against civilian targets and built an arsenal sufficent to kill 100 million people in an hour.

Furthermore, it isn't atheists who are looking forward so eagerly to the fulfillment of the blood-drenched scenario of the Book of Apocalypse.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

Im betting we could do more then 100 million in an hour. the cold war was good to our arsenal.

euh, anyone want to go through this thread with a large red marker and start deleting? it's added 75 posts in the time I signed off, read a few chapters, and came back on.
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Post by The Third Man »

So at best what does the FC argument get you? A label for a hypothetical causeless event, which you may choose to call God. How can it prove anything further? What's the next step in the reasoning that leads us to the familiar sentient God of (say) Christianity?
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Post by SAMAS »

I'm amazed. I really am.

At least two seperate people called EvilGrey out on what he intended to do, and as soon as he showed up, he did just that.
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Post by SirNitram »

How amusing! In EvilGray's continuing crusade against thought, he has waffled and flubbered so much his Pro-Creation argument has crumbled all the way to a Pro-Deist argument(Deism, of course, requiring nothing from God but being hte thing that started the Big Bang). Of course, he injects 'Sentience' where it has no place(Why is sentience needed for a Big Bang? The outcome we have seen is precisely what is prescribed by the laws of the Universe.), and once again states his baseless presumption that Atheists are somehow immoral, something he repeatedly fails to backup.

It amuses me to no end, how they all flock to Deism in the end.. Of course, being a Deist, I'm a little offended these morons use what I believe as a final line of defense for their bullshit.

So, I invoke Occam's Razor. No sentience is required in the gravitational collapse which is theorized to cause a Big Bang. Storm Rucker, despite being challenged, has failed to give any logical theories that use another mechanism. So, we can easily cut Sentience out of the equation.

Poor Occam. I wonder if he knew he'd destroy his faith's own arguments?
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Post by MKSheppard »

SirNitram wrote:Storm Rucker, despite being challenged, has failed to give any logical theories that use another mechanism. So, we can easily cut Sentience out of the equation.
How surprising. :roll:

Stork Fucker is your typical TK asshat - won't even back up his boasts
when challenged.

Automated Stork Fucker Reply Program v1.3
Stork Fucker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, if I so wish I can come and go as I please into any system, and forum, any website. Even the secret ones. The fingerprints I do leave I leave on purpose.
We're still waiting for you to BACK UP THAT CLAIM

And making up bullshit about Alyseka posting to the HAB when he hasn't
posted at all to HAB for the last 24 hours is just stupid.


Or was it just a boast? Will we have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out?

Stop dancing around the issue by making stupid snide comments, either
admit that you don't know jack shit, or PROVE your boast.

Funny thing:
All I have to do is hit CTRL-V and cut n paste this missive. Storky on the
other hand, has to spend at least 30 seconds thinking up a reply.

LOL, who's dancing to whose tune now? :twisted:


Typical TK, make outlandish boasts, and then evasively refuse to back
them up - reminds me of those "psychics" that won't meet with James
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden, they all share one thing. The belief that shapes a man's behavior. They didn't believe in Santa Claus.
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Post by EvilGrey »

The Third Man wrote:So at best what does the FC argument get you? A label for a hypothetical causeless event, which you may choose to call God. How can it prove anything further? What's the next step in the reasoning that leads us to the familiar sentient God of (say) Christianity?
The first cause argument is only the first step in establishing the existence of God. The argument opens up the possibility that God exists, but does not necessarily provide solid proof for the existence of God. Other arguments must be, and have been, devised to define the first cause. :D

SirNitram, you are an idiot. I never claimed the first cause is sentient. :roll:
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Post by Kuroneko »

EvilGrey wrote:The first cause argument is only the first step in establishing the existence of God. The argument opens up the possibility that God exists, but does not necessarily provide solid proof for the existence of God. Other arguments must be, and have been, devised to define the first cause. :D
I strongly disagree. For example, I see no reason to believe either one of the following assumptions:
  • Every causal chain has a first member.
  • (Implicit assumption.) There can be at most one uncaused cause.
Would you please justify those two assumptions?
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Post by The Question »

SirNitram wrote: Storm Rucker, despite being challenged, has failed to give any logical theories that use another mechanism


I'm not arguing in support of EvilGrey's position, jackass.

I stated that current cosmological theiry says there was no time before the Big Bang, and you claimed that all theories state there was.

You are wrong. Plain as day.

But I suppose you are used to that. :roll:

:lol:
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Post by Darth Gojira »

The Question wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Storm Rucker, despite being challenged, has failed to give any logical theories that use another mechanism


I'm not arguing in support of EvilGrey's position, jackass.

I stated that current cosmological theiry says there was no time before the Big Bang, and you claimed that all theories state there was.

You are wrong. Plain as day.

But I suppose you are used to that. :roll:

:lol:
Example please. Cite a source. Even I am unsure about the Big Bang.
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Post by Kuroneko »

The Question wrote:I stated that current cosmological theiry says there was no time before the Big Bang, and you claimed that all theories state there was.
Well, he stated it rather ambiguously, but even his original statement "how the Big Bang went off" can be very plausibly interpreted as theories of the causes of the Big Bang. Please give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Kuroneko »

Darth Gojira wrote:
The Question wrote:I stated that current cosmological theiry says there was no time before the Big Bang, ...
Example please. Cite a source. Even I am unsure about the Big Bang.
Cite? Why? Pretty much any text on relativity would do--time and space don't make any sense at all when not in reference with one another. This would mean there could be no meaningful concept of time "before" space (and thus the universe) was around.
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Post by The Question »

^^^

Thank you, Kuroneko.

And I should give the benefit of the doubt, but it is harder to be magnanamous to rude people.

I appreciate and will take your advice.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

EvilGrey wrote:The first cause argument is only the first step in establishing the existence of God. The argument opens up the possibility that God exists, but does not necessarily provide solid proof for the existence of God. Other arguments must be, and have been, devised to define the first cause. :D
Ah, I see, so it's just a "may or may not" argument. Therefore it opens the possibility that it is.

Let's see, since a plane crash "may or may not" have been caused by somebody's suitcase being stuck in the engine room, then it opens the possibility that suitcases crate plane crashes.
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Post by Darth Gojira »

Kuroneko wrote:
Darth Gojira wrote:
The Question wrote:I stated that current cosmological theiry says there was no time before the Big Bang, ...
Example please. Cite a source. Even I am unsure about the Big Bang.
Cite? Why? Pretty much any text on relativity would do--time and space don't make any sense at all when not in reference with one another. This would mean there could be no meaningful concept of time "before" space (and thus the universe) was around.
Ah, thanks. I needed a little tune-up on the subject.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

evil if i understand what you are saying as correct, whatever is the initial causative force in the universe, be it an internal force in the cosmic egg, or some bearded freak playing a game of universal marbles, you will still ccall it god? In which case then you might as well call me god, as thus the universe created itself (internal first cause), I am made up of the universe and exist within it, i exist completely within and made up of the universe, thus I am completely within and made up of god, thus i AM god.
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Post by Durandal »

The "First Mover" argument is a self-contradictory exercise in how not to reason correctly. It asserts the following two premises:

1. Every effect must have a cause.
2. This chain of cause and effect cannot be traced back infinitely,

which lead to the conclusion:

There must have been an initial, uncaused cause to start things off. This is assumed to be God.

Note premises 1 and 2. Premise 1 asserts that every cause must have an effect (a reasonable assumption). Premise 2 then asserts that this chain cannot continue infinitely, which completely contradicts the first premise. If every effect must have a cause, then you are declaring an infinite chain of cause and effect by definition.

The conclusion is just laughable. If every cause must have an effect, then it is impossible to conclude that there is an "uncaused cause" because it violates Premise 1.
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Post by Kuroneko »

Durandal wrote:The "First Mover" argument is a self-contradictory exercise in how not to reason correctly. It asserts the following two premises:

1. Every effect must have a cause.
2. This chain of cause and effect cannot be traced back infinitely,
Yes, though I'm still waiting for EvilGrey to justify that second assumption.
Durandal wrote:which lead to the conclusion:

There must have been an initial, uncaused cause to start things off. This is assumed to be God.
Only under the additional assumption that an uncaused cause, if exists, is unique, which I'm also waiting for EvilGrey to justify.
Durandal wrote:Note premises 1 and 2. Premise 1 asserts that every cause must have an effect (a reasonable assumption). Premise 2 then asserts that this chain cannot continue infinitely, which completely contradicts the first premise. If every effect must have a cause, then you are declaring an infinite chain of cause and effect by definition.

The conclusion is just laughable. If every cause must have an effect, then it is impossible to conclude that there is an "uncaused cause" because it violates Premise 1.
Not so. You're simply beginning the question by calling everything an effect. All we can really conclude from the assumptions as given is that there are some causes which are not effects--practically a definition of the term uncaused cause. If you had introduced another assumption that stated that the cause of every effect must itself be an effect, then you would be correct.
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Post by Zoink »

Ok I'll address this, which I googled:
In more abstract philosophical language, the proof goes this way. Every being that exists either exists by itself, by its own essence or nature, or it does not exist by itself. If it exists by its own essence, then it exists necessarily and eternally, and explains itself. It cannot not exist, as a triangle cannot not have three sides. If, on the other hand, a being exists but not by its own essence, then it needs a cause, a reason outside itself for its existence. Because it does not explain itself, something else must explain it. Beings whose essence does not contain the reason for their existence, beings that need causes, are called contingent, or dependent, beings. A being whose essence is to exist is called a necessary being. The universe contains only contingent beings. God would be the only necessary being—if God existed. Does he? Does a necessary being exist? Here is the proof that it does. Dependent beings cannot cause themselves. They are dependent on their causes. If there is no independent being, then the whole chain of dependent beings is dependent on nothing and could not exist. But they do exist. Therefore there is an independent being.

Saint Thomas has four versions of this basic argument.

First, he argues that the chain of movers must have a first mover because nothing can move itself. (Moving here refers to any kind of change, not just change of place.) If the whole chain of moving things had no first mover, it could not now be moving, as it is. If there were an infinite regress of movers with no first mover, no motion could ever begin, and if it never began, it could not go on and exist now. But it does go on, it does exist now. Therefore it began, and therefore there is a first mover.

Second, he expands the proof from proving a cause of motion to proving a cause of existence, or efficient cause. He argues that if there were no first efficient cause, or cause of the universe's coming into being, then there could be no second causes because second causes (i.e., caused causes) are dependent on (i.e., caused by) a first cause (i.e., an uncaused cause). But there are second causes all around us. Therefore there must be a first cause.

Third, he argues that if there were no eternal, necessary, and immortal being, if everything had a possibility of not being, of ceasing to be, then eventually this possibility of ceasing to be would be realized for everything. In other words, if everything could die, then, given infinite time, everything would eventually die. But in that case nothing could start up again. We would have universal death, for a being that has ceased to exist cannot cause itself or anything else to begin to exist again. And if there is no God, then there must have been infinite time, the universe must have been here always, with no beginning, no first cause. But this universal death has not happened; things do exist! Therefore there must be a necessary being that cannot not be, cannot possibly cease to be. That is a description of God.

Fourth, there must also be a first cause of perfection or goodness or value. We rank things as more or less perfect or good or valuable. Unless this ranking is false and meaningless, unless souls don't really have any more perfection than slugs, there must be a real standard of perfection to make such a hierarchy possible, for a thing is ranked higher on the hierarchy of perfection only insofar as it is closer to the standard, the ideal, the most perfect. Unless there is a most-perfect being to be that real standard of perfection, all our value judgments are meaningless and impossible. Such a most-perfect being, or real ideal standard of perfection, is another description of God.

There is a single common logical structure to all four proofs. Instead of proving God directly, they prove him indirectly, by refuting atheism. Either there is a first cause or not. The proofs look at "not" and refute it, leaving the only other possibility, that God is.


The problem I have with these arguments is that they assume time is a "universal" constant. Time exists within the universe; we have no knowledge that it exists outside the universe (unfounded assumption). Without the universe we don't have the universe's time reference. You can't say God existed for an infinite amount of time, then he decided to create the universe, and did so. It doesn't make sense. How can God be governed by something that doesn't exist yet? The relationship between two objects existing outside the universe's "time" frame (ie. the universe as a whole and God) cannot have time relationships. This seems fundamental to me. Without time both either exist or don't exist. Observation says the universe exists.

The universe is a 4 dimensional object composed of "processes". These processes give rise to the 4 dimensions we perceive: 3 spatial and 1 time. These processes converge to form a point we call the big bang.

There is "before" the big bang as we know it. Time doesn't exist prior to this point (its even silly of me to be using these words, its best to say space-time converges to the big bang). Whatever philosophical argument that describes actions within this universe, if it desires to know the happenings of a location on the space-time continuum that does not exist (ie. What was there 3 seconds "before" the big bang?

C. S. Lewis put it, "I felt in my bones that this universe does not explain itself."
Smart guy I guess. No knowledge of space-time. He might as well be discussing the eating habits of the loch ness monster, rather than the happenings "before" the big bang.
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Post by Durandal »

Kuroneko wrote:Not so. You're simply beginning the question by calling everything an effect. All we can really conclude from the assumptions as given is that there are some causes which are not effects--practically a definition of the term uncaused cause. If you had introduced another assumption that stated that the cause of every effect must itself be an effect, then you would be correct.
Good point. Though there is still no justification for assuming that we cannot trace such a train of cause and effect back infinitely, since we have never observed the chain of cause and effect to stop in nature, nor have we observed a cause that has not itself been an effect. The entire philosophy of science rests on the assumption that every effect has a cause, and that every cause is an effect.

Also, when discussing a singularity existing throughout all space and no time, such as the universe "before" the big bang, cause and effect are meaningless concepts because there is no time to differentiate them. We simply cannot temporally understand what was going on then, and cause and effect are temporal concepts.
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Post by EvilGrey »

Durandal wrote:The "First Mover" argument is a self-contradictory exercise in how not to reason correctly. It asserts the following two premises:

1. Every effect must have a cause.
2. This chain of cause and effect cannot be traced back infinitely,

which lead to the conclusion:

There must have been an initial, uncaused cause to start things off. This is assumed to be God.

Note premises 1 and 2. Premise 1 asserts that every cause must have an effect (a reasonable assumption). Premise 2 then asserts that this chain cannot continue infinitely, which completely contradicts the first premise. If every effect must have a cause, then you are declaring an infinite chain of cause and effect by definition.

The conclusion is just laughable. If every cause must have an effect, then it is impossible to conclude that there is an "uncaused cause" because it violates Premise 1.
The conclusion isn't laughable so much as your ineptitude is. :D

The argument of contingency reinforces the first cause argument, which itself is a variation of the argument. Your pitiful "refutation" is erroneous. :D
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Post by Kuroneko »

Durandal wrote:Good point. Though there is still no justification for assuming that we cannot trace such a train of cause and effect back infinitely, since we have never observed the chain of cause and effect to stop in nature, nor have we observed a cause that has not itself been an effect. The entire philosophy of science rests on the assumption that every effect has a cause, and that every cause is an effect.
Quite right, which is why I wanted to see how EvilGrey would justify such assumptions. It's a pity he seems to have disappeared in the middle of this.

I partially expected him to have argue that the time the universe had existed is finite (at least in the past direction); this argument was already referenced in this thread before. But that would only follow if there was a lower bound on the time between a cause and it effect. Time is not known to be quantized. [*]

Or, he could have been feeling particularly clever and asked if I was prepared to accept the Big Bang as an uncaused cause, but not God.
Durandal wrote:Also, when discussing a singularity existing throughout all space and no time, such as the universe "before" the big bang, cause and effect are meaningless concepts because there is no time to differentiate them. We simply cannot temporally understand what was going on then, and cause and effect are temporal concepts.
Even stronger than that, Mr. Sorresso! It means there is no time "during" ("at the instant of") the Big Bang. In mathematical terms, in means time is an open interval, and not closed (again, at least in the past direction). And yes, I'm aware that none but a mathematician or a philosopher could possibly care about such details, but this discussion is philosophical in nature, I don't see why not. Especially since this allows the following conclusion: not even the Big Bang itself is an uncaused cause!


[*] If, sometime in the future, quantum mechanics evolves to include this, I vote for "chronon" as the quantum of time.
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