By George, I think I've got it!

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By George, I think I've got it!

Post by Ender »

I think I figured out the reactor output formula Saxton used, and can now get the power generated by a hypermatter reactor if given the volume of the reactor. It's not perfect, and the values are off by a few decimal points (though those are really a few 1E23 watts :twisted:), but it looks like that is because the good Doctor rounded down. :)

Anyways, assuming a reactor 140 meters in diameter, an ISD generates 6.73E24 watts from it's main reactor. I seed to scale those other ones still.

And the DS2 generates 2.4E34 watts, which lets it fire a full power blast once an hour (meaning those weren't full power at Endor)

I hope to be able to isolate this sheet (and my BDZ calculator one) and set them up for download so that others can play around and perhaps check any mistakes.

Thank you to Warspite for answering my thread in SL&M, and Dr. Saxton for correspondign with me in the first place.
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Post by Ender »

Scratch that. I've been testing this, and it turns out that if you take the formula, then plug in the given value for either the Acclamator or DS1, you end off by alot.

I'm guessing that the log log relationship might not be linear, but basically its really fucked up.
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Post by Ender »

Got it. Get this: You have to divide the calculate value by 3 for it to match up with the acclamators stated power.

Divide by 3 and it matchs up. Man he underballed what it could have been.

Now I just need to get the round function to work when dealing with numbers like these... man I wish I knew more about Excel

Anyways, new ISD power figure: For a 140 meter reactor, it churns out 2.24E24 watts, and those secondary reactors we see in ICS 1, if I scaled them right, are41 meters and each pump out 3.77E22 watts
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Post by Warspite »

Numbers! We want more numbers! :)
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Post by Ender »

Warspite wrote:Numbers! We want more numbers! :)
Give me a value and I'll do it. (anyone know the volume of the Hoth reactor?)

Or better yet someone tell me where I can upload this sheet for download. Then everyone can play, and it will serve as peer review.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

2e24 watts? That seems a little low.
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Post by Ender »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:2e24 watts? That seems a little low.
...

It's ten times the power of the acclamator. It might not be what mike worked out on the site, but that is still fucking huge. That works out to something like 130 TT shields. And that's based off my guess at the size of the reactor, a bigger reactor = more power. But you think 2E24 is a little low? Did you forget a smiley there, or have you just lost the scale of exactly how much that is?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Most energy reactors in RL are on a logarithmic scale. Doctor Saxton probably used something similar.
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Post by Ender »

Master of Ossus wrote:Most energy reactors in RL are on a logarithmic scale.
Actually, it's that SUR is graphed on a logarithmic scale as the fact that it can grow at up to 12 DPM during startup or a transient means that otherwise you couldn't show it. However I checked all my texts here and asked several instructors and the only relevence volume has to power that I know, could find. or that the instructors could tell me was that it's relationship to surface area affects neutron leakage. Which is pretty freaking obvious.

This particular topic is obviously near and dear to me because as a reactor tech I think this is "the bee's knees".
Doctor Saxton probably used something similar.
He specifically said he based it off a log-log relationship.
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Post by Ender »

Adjusted it for a more accurate DS1 power, is now about 2.5E24 watts for a 140 diameter reactor, and assuming my scaling is right 4E22 for each of the smaller reactors.

So shields are about 150 TT


I also played around with scaling straight down from the DS. I now see why Sean said that any intellegent person understands the meaning of the Death Star.

I think I'll either play around with that a bit to rebut some SB fanatics, or maybe work on some B5 stuff to deal with fivers next.
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Post by SPOOFE »

Anyways, assuming a reactor 140 meters in diameter
I trust you're not assuming the ISD main reactor to be spherical.
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Post by Ender »

SPOOFE wrote:
Anyways, assuming a reactor 140 meters in diameter
I trust you're not assuming the ISD main reactor to be spherical.
Only dimensional data I've been able to aquire has been for spherical reactors. And some blueprints I found linked at a thread stickied atop sjow a spherical reactor. I am aware taht in ICS is it a pill shaped, but I assume that the extra parts there are parts that convert the heat or whatever generated by the reaction into electricity.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Have you tried it for the TF core ship? According to ICS, it produces 3e24 watts, or more then your ISD figures! And 6e23 watts shields, only slightly less than an ISD!
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Post by Ender »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Have you tried it for the TF core ship? According to ICS, it produces 3e24 watts, or more then your ISD figures! And 6e23 watts shields, only slightly less than an ISD!
How big is the reactor? I can try plugging that in, see if it shifts things.

Though really, it shouldn't. Even doing straight down scaling from the DS1 it's 2.1E24 for the main reactor. So I've got a rough order of magnitude at least
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Post by Ice »

Ender wrote:I also played around with scaling straight down from the DS. I now see why Sean said that any intellegent person understands the meaning of the Death Star.
Um, maybe it's obvious and I'm missing it, but what's it mean? :oops:
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

death! lots of death!
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Post by Ender »

Ice wrote:
Ender wrote:I also played around with scaling straight down from the DS. I now see why Sean said that any intellegent person understands the meaning of the Death Star.
Um, maybe it's obvious and I'm missing it, but what's it mean? :oops:
Enforcer more or less nailed it down. You can do work on the DS and get hefty numbers. For example, if I sacle straight down from the DS1's reactor, I get an ISD output of 2.1E24. If only 1% of that was going to the shields I get 5 TT for shields for an ISD. THe ESB novel says that the Executor was 5x as powerful as an ISD so it has shields of 25TT using the 1% bit. The ROTJ novel says "dozens of cruisers" were concentrating their firepower on the SSD. If we go withg 36 for 3 dozen and go with 42 HTLs on each cruiser and assume 5 seconds of firing (I beleive that was the time) and 1 shot per second (DS1's refire rate) , then each HTL comes out to 3 GT per shot. Note that this is, again, very low end because of the shields assumptions, because most of said cruisrs were smaller ships using LTLs and MTLs, that 42 is both sides, not a single broadside, and that full broadsides were never shown, and that the ship[s there semed to have a slower ROF. All of which up the value. Then back to the DS for fleet size, if the beam is 1E38 and ISDs have a power of 2.1E24, this means the Imperial fleet as of ANH is ~47 trillion ISDs strong. Going around Endor they pull 3000Gs and hyperspace speeds are calculated to high thousands C (IIRC, might have been millions, MoO did the work) by the ROTJ time to reach the bunker and hundreds of LYs away quote from the novels.

47 trillion ships with 5 teratons shields and dozens of GT level cannons that can pull 3000 Gs and travel at several thousand C.

And that is soley the movies and novels. No EU or anything. You know, I'm really tempted to becoem a canon purist. :twisted:

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Post by Ender »

Oh, and if anyone could provide better scaling on the ISD secondary reactors and scaling on the TF coreship reactor so I can add them in, I would be most appreciative. Anyoe who wants my current work, email me and I'll send you a copy because it's an excel spreadsheet and thus cannot be posted.
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Post by Mad »

Ender wrote:For example, if I sacle straight down from the DS1's reactor, I get an ISD output of 2.1E24. If only 1% of that was going to the shields I get 5 TT for shields for an ISD.
If you factor in this quote for 25% of total power for shields, then you get 125 TT/s shields:
Imperial Handbook, page 49 wrote:Most combat starships channel 25% of their total power through the shield generators
125 TT/s is about 7 times more powerful than the Acclamator's 16 TT/s shielding.

The only problem is that some ship's peak shielding can actually be greater than the reactor's peak output (diplomatic barge in ICS2). Which indicates that such figures are likely maximum heat dissipation rates. Which means an ISD could actually have stronger or weaker overall shielding, depending on how well it can dissipate heat buildup.

However, this does indicate that at normal shield operating conditions, an ISD should be able to take 125 TT per second without bleedthrough. A weapon shouldn't require more work to deflect than the damage it can deliver; in fact, the weapon should typically require less energy to deflect than it is capable of delivering, though if it isn't deflected, it will have to be absorbed into the system. Anyway, if incoming attacks take more power to deflect than the shield system has to offer, then bleedthrough will occur regardless of whether the shield systems are overheating or not. Heat created from the deflection, and energy absorbed from what wasn't deflected will be pumped out at the stated rate.

The 125 TT/s number is, of course, assuming you used a valid number for the Death Star reactor. Because of the main weapon's charging time, the reactor itself is likely less than 1E38 watts. It'll be above 1E33 W, though, as it required less than 24 hours to recharge. May I ask what number you used?
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

I cant even think of numbers that big. :? :shock:
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

That's because values that exceed billions are typically too large for most people to visualise.
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Post by Ender »

Mad wrote:
Ender wrote:For example, if I sacle straight down from the DS1's reactor, I get an ISD output of 2.1E24. If only 1% of that was going to the shields I get 5 TT for shields for an ISD.
If you factor in this quote for 25% of total power for shields, then you get 125 TT/s shields:
Imperial Handbook, page 49 wrote:Most combat starships channel 25% of their total power through the shield generators
125 TT/s is about 7 times more powerful than the Acclamator's 16 TT/s shielding.
I am well aware of tha bit and routinely use that. What you have above is a precrafted response to rabid whiners.
The only problem is that some ship's peak shielding can actually be greater than the reactor's peak output (diplomatic barge in ICS2). Which indicates that such figures are likely maximum heat dissipation rates. Which means an ISD could actually have stronger or weaker overall shielding, depending on how well it can dissipate heat buildup.
I always put that down to being a typo on the part of the printers. Is there a statement saying that what you propose is the case?
However, this does indicate that at normal shield operating conditions, an ISD should be able to take 125 TT per second without bleedthrough. A weapon shouldn't require more work to deflect than the damage it can deliver; in fact, the weapon should typically require less energy to deflect than it is capable of delivering, though if it isn't deflected, it will have to be absorbed into the system. Anyway, if incoming attacks take more power to deflect than the shield system has to offer, then bleedthrough will occur regardless of whether the shield systems are overheating or not. Heat created from the deflection, and energy absorbed from what wasn't deflected will be pumped out at the stated rate.
The 125 TT/s number is, of course, assuming you used a valid number for the Death Star reactor. Because of the main weapon's charging time, the reactor itself is likely less than 1E38 watts. It'll be above 1E33 W, though, as it required less than 24 hours to recharge. May I ask what number you used?
Those are based off some work I had already done refuting people who tried to use little bobby's MCR theory for the DS. Going by it's shielding, it's reactor would be ~1.6E32.

If you go by what it's reactor really would be by the DS1's cannon, the ISD has a main reactor of 1.7E25, shields would be an uber low end of 41TT, HTLs about 27 GT, and the fleet 5.75 trillion strong.

And that DS1 reactor assumes 23 hours for a full charge and doesn't account fo engines or shields or what not, making it again, extremely low end.
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Post by Mad »

Ender wrote:I am well aware of tha bit and routinely use that. What you have above is a precrafted response to rabid whiners.
Ah. I was trying to nail down some more likely numbers, and then work out some of its implications as far as shielding goes (or how much it could apply to shielding).
I always put that down to being a typo on the part of the printers. Is there a statement saying that what you propose is the case?
Well, basically, I assume it isn't a typo. (Though if we assume they're off by an order of magnitude, then that'd be 20% power to shields, but we wouldn't know which one is correct.) Asking Saxton would be the sure way to find out.

Assuming the numbers are intentional, then we'd have to have an explanation. No, there's no direct proof of the theory I'm using, but I'll give the reasoning (at least, my understanding of it; others have came up with this before me, and their reasoning may be different in some areas):

Given various references to shield generators or projectors overheating/burning out, and how SW shields tend to collapse rather suddenly and randomly when under large power straisn, it appears that handling heat is a major issue with shields. There's also mention of heat disposal systems relating to the shields in ICS2.

Since a ship's reactor can't give a shield system more power than the reactor itself can generate, then there's two explanations that I can think of: first, that there's a capacitor/battery that is charged up that can briefly power the shields in the event of a big enough attack; and second, that the number refers to the rate at which the waste heat can be dumped.

Also, with the fact that ships can allocate more or less power to shields, including from weapons. For example, in Isard's Revenge, an ISD ceased fire to put as much power to shields as possible... which is going to be more than the standard allotment of power.

For an Acclamator, that's some 5E22 watts, assuming 2 second delay between shots. Since the peak capacity is 7E22, I doubt the normal shield capacity is 2E22, or only 10% of reactor capacity. (The numbers could still likely work out under a different set of assumptions, I admit... a larger firing delay, for instance.)
Those are based off some work I had already done refuting people who tried to use little bobby's MCR theory for the DS. Going by it's shielding, it's reactor would be ~1.6E32.
So you used a lower number for the DS' reactor than it should be. Since your goal is low-end numbers for canon, that shouldn't be a problem for that goal.

As for the numbers you gave using a more accurate reactor figure, all I can say is that they seem a bit high. (Especially since that'd put 1,000 TT/s shielding on ISDs using more likely assumptions.) But, of course, "they seem high" isn't a valid argument.
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Post by Ender »

Mad wrote:As for the numbers you gave using a more accurate reactor figure, all I can say is that they seem a bit high. (Especially since that'd put 1,000 TT/s shielding on ISDs using more likely assumptions.) But, of course, "they seem high" isn't a valid argument.
I know. Here's the thing though; straight scaling down doesn't work for the Acclamators. Ends up being ~2E24 instead of 2E23. I'm tempted to thinkthat when Dr. Saxton did the original scale down he got that and said "that's to high" and divided by 10, but the problem ther is that then the DS2 is weaker then the DS1.

I really wish he had responded when I asked him what fomula he used.
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Post by Ender »

Anyone have size numbers for the diameter of the Trade ships reactor? Or the ISD secondary reactors? Or better dimensional data for the reactors in the ISD or Acclamator (I've been susing a sphere, I'd like to try an elipsoid like they are)
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