Achilles class

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-14 09:56pm

If you've played ST DS9: Dominion Wars game, you've seen the Achilles Class heavy cruiser.

Links: http://www.simonsays.com/dominionwars_s ... lesPro.htm

http://www.simonsays.com/dominionwars_s ... hilles.htm

I so wish that was a canon ship. I'd love to see this sucker take on Shinzons 'uber' ship.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-06-14 09:58pm

The Federation got enough new classes during the DS9 era. They don't need any more.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-14 10:04pm

Yes, but this one is cooler.

Just imagine if that sucker was around instead of the Interpids. Voyager would've been much more entertaining.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-06-15 12:24am

This class looks like a pretty good take on a Federation capital ship. There's not a lot of stuff sticking out to be shot off like on a Galaxy, but she retains the look of a Starfleet vessel.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-15 12:30am

Unfortunatly, the ship is the only cool thing about the game. It only requires 233mhz to run, yet still lags, even on a 900+ mhz processor. Not to mention the colors on it look shitty.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-06-15 12:43am

Unfortunatly, the ship is the only cool thing about the game.

Agreed. I also like the design. Shitty as Dominion Wars was, they did have some excellent original Trek universe ships. I've even incorperated some of them into my fan fic. The Achilles has become my PD cruiser (with all those micro torps, it seemed a good fit).

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-15 03:34am

While I was outside yesterday, thinking about the Achilles, your fanfic came to mind.

Could it be considered a canon ship? They did give plenty of info about it.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-15 06:49am

Seen it before- I don't like it personally. It doesn't look like a UFP ship.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-06-15 10:35am

Cool looking ship!

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-06-15 10:40am

The forward section just awkwardly reminds me of the Marauder cruiser but overall it looks good. ~Jason

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-15 06:07pm

You know I was looking on the Dominion Wars site and they have the defiant class being less powerful and slower than the steamrunners.....IIRC the defiants should give galaxy class ships a run for their money.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-15 06:14pm

Does the outline of the Achilles remind you of another ship?

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-15 07:22pm

Aya wrote:Does the outline of the Achilles remind you of another ship?

looks like an intrepid class ship, with a slightly different shaped saucer section.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-15 07:44pm

Aya wrote:Could it be considered a canon ship?

Let me demonstrate the likelihood with this here snowball and this here blowtorch.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-06-16 12:23am

You know I was looking on the Dominion Wars site and they have the defiant class being less powerful and slower than the steamrunners.....IIRC the defiants should give galaxy class ships a run for their money.

Sacrifice made for game balance I would think. In canon, the Defiant likley could give a pre-war Galaxy a good working over before she died.

Let me demonstrate the likelihood with this here snowball and this here blowtorch.

I have to agree. While the overall design and tech should well work in canon, actually having the design show up on screen (small or big) is quite remote.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2003-06-16 02:08am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Aya wrote:Does the outline of the Achilles remind you of another ship?
looks like an intrepid class ship, with a slightly different shaped saucer section.

Bingo! I actually thought it was an Intrepid, till I saw the opening cutscene.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-06-16 02:12am

Death from the Sea wrote:You know I was looking on the Dominion Wars site and they have the defiant class being less powerful and slower than the steamrunners.....IIRC the defiants should give galaxy class ships a run for their money.

I see no reason to think that a Defient class could hold even a glass of water next to a large ship. It is said that the Defient class is extremely well armed for a ship of that size (in the Federation) but that doesn't automaticly translate to ship killer in a midget body.

To date, the Defient has shown;
Four forward fixed pulse phasers
Two forward torpedo launchers (suppost to be one, but have seen torpedo's coming out of the pulse phaser ports *shrug* shitty writting)
One dorsal and one ventral standard phaser strip
Supposedly one aft torpedo launcher (haven't seen it fire but....)

Its defensive capabilities are good for a ship of that size too, yet I still don't think it goes into the 'supper uber' scale of indestructability.

Like the SW v ST debate, this situation would seem to be one of power output. If the Defient can generate sufficently more power than the Galaxy class, then it is possible that the ship could over power the larger one. Yet in such a small hull, could the Defient have the power generation equipment with great enough output to power shields capable of countering the larger craft? The Abletive armor only goes so far, so the question is, can the Defient withstand the power of the Galaxy weapons long enough and still have enough energy to use their weapons to over power the Galaxy's shields before yeilding to the opposite?

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2003-06-16 03:26am

Ramming deflector !?!? Tactic wise the Feds are back to the Peloponesian wars and Triremes. Perhaps they can hire Klingoffs to whip the redshirts rowing the thing.

Rather nice looking ship though.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-06-16 07:54am

Knife wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:You know I was looking on the Dominion Wars site and they have the defiant class being less powerful and slower than the steamrunners.....IIRC the defiants should give galaxy class ships a run for their money.
I see no reason to think that a Defient class could hold even a glass of water next to a large ship. It is said that the Defient class is extremely well armed for a ship of that size (in the Federation) but that doesn't automaticly translate to ship killer in a midget body.

To date, the Defient has shown;
Four forward fixed pulse phasers
Two forward torpedo launchers (suppost to be one, but have seen torpedo's coming out of the pulse phaser ports *shrug* shitty writting)
One dorsal and one ventral standard phaser strip
Supposedly one aft torpedo launcher (haven't seen it fire but....)

Its defensive capabilities are good for a ship of that size too, yet I still don't think it goes into the 'supper uber' scale of indestructability.

Like the SW v ST debate, this situation would seem to be one of power output. If the Defient can generate sufficently more power than the Galaxy class, then it is possible that the ship could over power the larger one. Yet in such a small hull, could the Defient have the power generation equipment with great enough output to power shields capable of countering the larger craft? The Abletive armor only goes so far, so the question is, can the Defient withstand the power of the Galaxy weapons long enough and still have enough energy to use their weapons to over power the Galaxy's shields before yeilding to the opposite?

The Defiant is supposed to have two torpedo launchers forward, the tubes located near the pulse phaser cannon, and a forward probe launcher near the navigational deflector. Apparently the Defiant's superduper torpedo tubes are not able to launch probes. Where the aft launcher(s) is or are supposed to be...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-06-16 08:04am

For some reason the Achilles makes me think of the Protector from Galayx Quest. It must be the flattened fixed angle of the nacells.

Otherwise, a rather cool looking ship.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-06-16 08:13am

Knife wrote: I see no reason to think that a Defient class could hold even a glass of water next to a large ship. It is said that the Defient class is extremely well armed for a ship of that size (in the Federation) but that doesn't automaticly translate to ship killer in a midget body.

To date, the Defient has shown;
Four forward fixed pulse phasers
Two forward torpedo launchers (suppost to be one, but have seen torpedo's coming out of the pulse phaser ports *shrug* shitty writting)
One dorsal and one ventral standard phaser strip
Supposedly one aft torpedo launcher (haven't seen it fire but....)

Its defensive capabilities are good for a ship of that size too, yet I still don't think it goes into the 'supper uber' scale of indestructability.

Like the SW v ST debate, this situation would seem to be one of power output. If the Defient can generate sufficently more power than the Galaxy class, then it is possible that the ship could over power the larger one. Yet in such a small hull, could the Defient have the power generation equipment with great enough output to power shields capable of countering the larger craft? The Abletive armor only goes so far, so the question is, can the Defient withstand the power of the Galaxy weapons long enough and still have enough energy to use their weapons to over power the Galaxy's shields before yeilding to the opposite?

Considering what the Defiant class orginated from you'd think that just by upscaling the class they could come up with an extremely powerful warship. Certainly at some point the increase in size would provide diminishing returns but conisdering what they shoe-horned into that ship what could they really do with more space?

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-16 10:02am

Knife wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:You know I was looking on the Dominion Wars site and they have the defiant class being less powerful and slower than the steamrunners.....IIRC the defiants should give galaxy class ships a run for their money.
I see no reason to think that a Defient class could hold even a glass of water next to a large ship. It is said that the Defient class is extremely well armed for a ship of that size (in the Federation) but that doesn't automaticly translate to ship killer in a midget body.

Um... well in DS9 it was stated that the PPC was more powerful than the galaxy class type 10 phasers, and that the defiant class warp core was more powerful than the galaxy class ships as well. Then there is the fact that in most every engagement the Defiant herself was ship killer in battle.

To date, the Defient has shown;
Four forward fixed pulse phasers
Two forward torpedo launchers (suppost to be one, but have seen torpedo's coming out of the pulse phaser ports *shrug* shitty writting)
One dorsal and one ventral standard phaser strip
Supposedly one aft torpedo launcher (haven't seen it fire but....)

Those "standard" phaser strips are type 10 phasers, the same as on a galaxy class ship, are nothing to sneeze at. And once again the PPC were said to be more powerful than galaxy class phasers, nor does a galaxy class ship carry quantom torpedoes.

Its defensive capabilities are good for a ship of that size too, yet I still don't think it goes into the 'supper uber' scale of indestructability.

It has tough shielding and then it has the ablative armor, which a galaxy class ship does not have the latter.

Like the SW v ST debate, this situation would seem to be one of power output. If the Defient can generate sufficently more power than the Galaxy class, then it is possible that the ship could over power the larger one. Yet in such a small hull, could the Defient have the power generation equipment with great enough output to power shields capable of countering the larger craft? The Abletive armor only goes so far, so the question is, can the Defient withstand the power of the Galaxy weapons long enough and still have enough energy to use their weapons to over power the Galaxy's shields before yeilding to the opposite?

Like I said before DS9 stated that the defiant class warp core was more powerful than the galaxy class warp core, so power generation is not an issue. There is also the fact that the defiant class is MUCH more manuverable, something a captain like Sisko constantly used to dodge enemy fire. I believe that the defiant class could take a normal galaxy class starship and it would probably be either even with or beaten by a galaxy war mod.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-16 10:06am

HappyTarget wrote:
You know I was looking on the Dominion Wars site and they have the defiant class being less powerful and slower than the steamrunners.....IIRC the defiants should give galaxy class ships a run for their money.
Sacrifice made for game balance I would think.

I know, but why power her down soooo much when there are much weaker ships that could be used there and why not use her somewhere else?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-06-16 11:46am

Patrick Ogarrd wrote:The Defiant is supposed to have two torpedo launchers forward, the tubes located near the pulse phaser cannon, and a forward probe launcher near the navigational deflector. Apparently the Defiant's superduper torpedo tubes are not able to launch probes. Where the aft launcher(s) is or are supposed to be...

According to every MSD I have ever seen, including the close up of the one on the show, there is a torpedo launcher like structure on the ventral aft end of the ship. I think I even recall a piece of dialouge about 'prepare to launch rear torpedo's' but I could be wrong in that.

Tsyroc wrote:Considering what the Defiant class orginated from you'd think that just by upscaling the class they could come up with an extremely powerful warship. Certainly at some point the increase in size would provide diminishing returns but conisdering what they shoe-horned into that ship what could they really do with more space?

Or at least use the exsisting technology that was developed for the Defient and use it to build a cruiser sized vessel with the Pulse Phasers and armor system.

Death from the Sea wrote:Um... well in DS9 it was stated that the PPC was more powerful than the galaxy class type 10 phasers, and that the defiant class warp core was more powerful than the galaxy class ships as well. Then there is the fact that in most every engagement the Defiant herself was ship killer in battle.

The pulse phasers may very well be more powerful than a type 10 phaser strip. The point is, the Defient has four while a Galaxy has what? Ten strips. The Defients pulse phasers are a fixed emplacement, the Galaxy can adjust their fire. Is the total out put of the four pulse phasers larger than the total output of ten type ten phaser strips?

If the warp core does crank out more power than the Galaxy, then the Defient still has a problem with the lack of weapons to put that power through. It would give them an edge on shields though, but with 6 available weapons to channel the power through, it still comes in under gunned. I don't think that the pulse phasers are that much more powerful to compensate for the lack of actual emplacements.

Those "standard" phaser strips are type 10 phasers, the same as on a galaxy class ship, are nothing to sneeze at. And once again the PPC were said to be more powerful than galaxy class phasers, nor does a galaxy class ship carry quantom torpedoes.

Thats pretty much my argument. With four PP, the PP would have to be more than twice as powerful as the type ten phaser for the Defient to match the fire power of the Galaxy let alone out gun it. The QT's are about twice as destructive as a PT and I have seen the Galaxy able to fire a far larger quanity than the Defient has ever shown. At max, and correct me if I am wrong, I have seen the Defient shoot volleys of four torpedo's, while I have seen the Galaxy burst fire up too six. That would give the Defient a slight edge in torpedo power but all of that would go out the window if I knew the reload rate of each ship.

It has tough shielding and then it has the ablative armor, which a galaxy class ship does not have the latter.

True, but the Galaxy has space to burn. Once the Defients shields are down, the small size of the ship works against it. Just about any hit has to hit something important, since all the gear of a starship is crammed into such a small hull. The Galaxy, while fragile, has a huge internal volume. As long as you don't stare at the warp core, the hull should be able to take enormous damage with some of its systems being able to stay on line.

Like I said before DS9 stated that the defiant class warp core was more powerful than the galaxy class warp core, so power generation is not an issue. There is also the fact that the defiant class is MUCH more manuverable, something a captain like Sisko constantly used to dodge enemy fire. I believe that the defiant class could take a normal galaxy class starship and it would probably be either even with or beaten by a galaxy war mod

I am of the opposite opinion. I hate ubber ships, the Defient was created to be a fast torpedo boat and in that function it is great. (In fact, I do love the design) yet it is still suicide to attack a battleship or cruiser with a torpedo boat. (disclaimer, cloak used to make it a sci-fi version of a submarine changes that slightly but the limitations of a cloak doesn't make a direct comparison with a sub).

When they say that it is a powerful ship, I take that in context to it's size and not absolutely literal. Defient v Oberth, Oberth is toast. Defient v Nova, Nova scrapped. Defient v Dominion battle crab thingys, dead bug. Defient v large war ship? Well there was an episode about that now wasn't there.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-06-16 11:56am

I've never seen the proper Defiant use phaser strips. I think they were in the orginal design though as the mirror defiant has fired phaser beams