What's so wrong with homosexuality?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-14 11:23pm

kojikun wrote:YT, lets hear your justification for your warped morality.

All of my life I have been taught that gays are bad.

I am starting to be more open-minded, but it is slow going.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-14 11:25pm

kojikun wrote:
without talking bout romance
You mean buttsex.

that too.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-14 11:26pm

YT300000 wrote:FYI I am an atheist. I don't base my opinions on vague/not so vague biblical quotes.

note two posts - one for the original topic, and one for you.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-06-15 12:59am

YT300000 wrote:
kojikun wrote:YT, lets hear your justification for your warped morality.
All of my life I have been taught that gays are bad.

I am starting to be more open-minded, but it is slow going.

Wait, you know it's indoctrinated in you...but you still agree?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-06-15 01:40am

StarshipTitanic wrote:
YT300000 wrote:
kojikun wrote:YT, lets hear your justification for your warped morality.
All of my life I have been taught that gays are bad.

I am starting to be more open-minded, but it is slow going.
Wait, you know it's indoctrinated in you...but you still agree?

I can almost understand where he's coming from. When you've had something pounded in your head for a long time and you're just coming around to see that there's no basis for that, you might understand in your logical, reasoning mind that it's wrong but it's still kinda burned into your brain. I think a lot of the athiests here who are deconverted Christians can attest to that--I certainly can.

Not that I'm defending YT's postion--I don't think even he's trying to defend it--but if he is trying to be more open minded, and he does admit his opinion is wrong and unjustifiable, then he'll come around eventually.

Just my thoughts. I'm not going to flame him, but nobody else has to agree with me.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-06-15 01:41am

YT300000 wrote:
kojikun wrote:YT, lets hear your justification for your warped morality.
All of my life I have been taught that gays are bad.

I am starting to be more open-minded, but it is slow going.

Please give this message to whoever taught you that gays are bad:

"Gays are not morally wrong. If anything, it is Christianity that epitomizes all that is wrong with society. You and your baby-killing bloodthirsty and EVIL 'God' can go shove it!!"

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-06-15 02:10am

I dont find two guys getting it on revolting. I could care less. I dont like the super, flaming, flamboyant gay types, but its not cause they sleep with guys, its cause I find the behavior annoying.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-06-15 02:12am

I find male/male homosexuality (for some reason not lesbians.. don't ask me why I dunno, I just don't) kinda disgusting and creepy.. but I don't think there's anything morally wrong with it. What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is their own damn business and personally don't see any reason why any homosexual couple should be denied the right to marriage, doing that is just being an asshole.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-15 04:05am

When I was a kid, we'd throw around insults like "sissy" and "you act like a girl" and "you like to kiss guys". When we finally found out that that actually occurs....it was really hard to take.

Gay dudes, what you have to understand about us straight guys is this: from the time we are little boys up 'till and including PAST high school, we are always on the defensive about our manliness. You can't cry in public, or you're a pussy. You can't run away from a fight, or you're a pussy. You can't cry if you're being yelled at by the coach, or you're a pussy.

Straight men PRIDE ourselves on how manly we are in any given situation. So when we see a mincing effeminate male of COURSE the sentiment will be negative. We should neither apologize for this or be sorry for it. This is how straight men are wired. Period. This is not "homophobia"- a "fear" of gays, this is disgust with another male's actions which are ALIEN to straight men.

As we get older, and hopefully this occurs before 20, we learn to accept gays for who they are. MOST of us do. You have the other straight males who NEVER grow up, and feel they have to openly berate and gays they see, or in extreme cases, have to beat the shit out of them.

This is not repressed homosexulality or any bullshit like that that empowering gay activists like to call it. These SAME ASSHOLES will beat down others of differing races or creeds. Yes,religion plays a part in all this too, but ONLY as an "excuse" to act this way, without really admitting the truth: they haven't grown up.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-06-15 05:05am

I just have two things to throw into the mix:

1) Like a lot of people who have posted, I don't understand gays. But neither do I understand straights. There are so many things on which to base your attraction on someone on, that it seems odd not to fancy someone purely on the basis on sex. There are far to many gorgeous people out there of both sexes for me to make such a clear distinction like that, and I know there's at least one other GALE Force member out there who agrees.

2) I am slightly more annoyed by people complaining about 'negative stereotypes'. There's fuck all wrong with being camp, and just because there are gay peopel who aren't camp, doesn't mean that a man who is should try to act a certain way just because it enforcs a stereotypes peopel don't like. One of my dearest friends is camp as shit: have a soft voice, likes to dress up (sometimes in drag sometimes not), and picks up a different straight woman to dance thwe night away each night. Yes, he's a stereotypes, but he's also one of the most genuine, open, wonderful people I know, so leave him alone.
(on a side note, I also have a very camp friend w3ho fancies girls, but he's in the theatre)

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-06-15 06:10am

innerbrat wrote:
2) I am slightly more annoyed by people complaining about 'negative stereotypes'. There's fuck all wrong with being camp, and just because there are gay peopel who aren't camp, doesn't mean that a man who is should try to act a certain way just because it enforcs a stereotypes peopel don't like. One of my dearest friends is camp as shit: have a soft voice, likes to dress up (sometimes in drag sometimes not), and picks up a different straight woman to dance thwe night away each night. Yes, he's a stereotypes, but he's also one of the most genuine, open, wonderful people I know, so leave him alone.
(on a side note, I also have a very camp friend w3ho fancies girls, but he's in the theatre)

Well, "manliness" as such is a legitimate virtue (and one that has nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation, but for lack of a better name...) - It's just not one associated with straight people. The Spartans and the Sacred Band of Thebes were certainly among the highest examples of "manliness" in history, and I don't think I need to go into what they liked, other than the fact that the Sacred Band was formed out of 150 homosexual male couples. They died in their places at Chaeroneia, and Philip wept of their bodies in honour of their courage. Philip, King of Macedon, father of Alexander - Who also liked young male youths.

The idea of trying to equate being straight and being manly is obscene, because it disrespects history. So, for that matter, is being "womanly" and being homosexual, which some people in activist groups make out as a virtue. Neither is appropriate. They are just modes of behaviour. Women in Persia wore trousers; the "skirt" of the Scots was a man's war-garb.

To speak to all: Bluntly, ideas about sex are just as cultural as anything else, and one must accept and realize that our ideas about sex are still largely locked into a vicious and primitive judeo-christian conception, having no basis in fact.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-06-15 09:17am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:To speak to all: Bluntly, ideas about sex are just as cultural as anything else, and one must accept and realize that our ideas about sex are still largely locked into a vicious and primitive judeo-christian conception, having no basis in fact.

That's why I don't understand why some gay men act effeminent in our society. They were not taught to act this way. And it can't be the 'wiring' of being gay because, though I certainly don't know for sure, I doubt the warriors of Spartan, a society that killed weak babies and underfed their squires, forcing them to steal food, to teach resourcefulness, yet beat them if they were caught, would have been prancing around. If that's how a person is, fine. I'm just trying to understand the why of it.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-15 10:29am

Have no problems with homos. As long as they try to be under themselves and don't think, they were something better.

I really hate these gay activists, which think, the homosexuality is something faaaaar better than all the thing, the "normal" ons do. I once met someone like thins, he wanted to show me, that to be gay is something like the next step of evolution or something like that.
I think, THAT is really disgusting.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-15 10:59am

Lord Poe wrote:When I was a kid, we'd throw around insults like "sissy" and "you act like a girl" and "you like to kiss guys". When we finally found out that that actually occurs....it was really hard to take.

Gay dudes, what you have to understand about us straight guys is this: from the time we are little boys up 'till and including PAST high school, we are always on the defensive about our manliness. You can't cry in public, or you're a pussy. You can't run away from a fight, or you're a pussy. You can't cry if you're being yelled at by the coach, or you're a pussy.

Very, very true. The fastest way to start a fight is to question a guy's manliness, accuse him of being a pussy or having no balls, etc.

Straight men PRIDE ourselves on how manly we are in any given situation. So when we see a mincing effeminate male of COURSE the sentiment will be negative. We should neither apologize for this or be sorry for it. This is how straight men are wired. Period. This is not "homophobia"- a "fear" of gays, this is disgust with another male's actions which are ALIEN to straight men.

I have known several men who were straight but quite effeminate, and I dare say that they make men just as uncomfortable as homosexuals do, if not more so.

As we get older, and hopefully this occurs before 20, we learn to accept gays for who they are. MOST of us do. You have the other straight males who NEVER grow up, and feel they have to openly berate and gays they see, or in extreme cases, have to beat the shit out of them.

This is not repressed homosexulality or any bullshit like that that empowering gay activists like to call it. These SAME ASSHOLES will beat down others of differing races or creeds. Yes,religion plays a part in all this too, but ONLY as an "excuse" to act this way, without really admitting the truth: they haven't grown up.

I'd say it's more than a mere excuse; it is also a motivator. Even gay men who don't act effeminate at all are hounded and discriminated against, and it would be rather difficult to seriously believe that you can tell someone that homosexuality is a "sin against God" throughout his entire upbringing without becoming a cause of his behaviour (as opposed to a mere excuse).

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-06-15 11:21am

YT300000 wrote:
kojikun wrote:YT, lets hear your justification for your warped morality.
All of my life I have been taught that gays are bad.

I am starting to be more open-minded, but it is slow going.

Don't sweat it. Even I am still trying to erase my indoctrination. Just keep at it, and try to supress your pass feelings.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-06-15 11:46am

I am ridiculously heterosexual, but I have no problem whatsoever with homosexuals or homosexual acts. I'm certainly not interested- the male body is pretty goddamn ugly- but I figure people should do whatever floats their boat.

Call me gay, on the other hand, or insult my manliness, and I'll start a fight as fast as I fucking can.

After all, I am one of those immature high-school grads Poe mentioned

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-15 12:05pm

Thirdfain wrote:Call me gay, on the other hand, or insult my manliness, and I'll start a fight as fast as I fucking can. After all, I am one of those immature high-school grads Poe mentioned

Don't worry about it; you'll grow out of it! Those that DO grow up do. Since I turned 18, I've walked away from many fights, and was called a pussy. You simply have to weigh what's perceived as important from what actualy IS. Going to jail and/or being sued by someone you beat the shit out of that called you a name vs. being able to go to work the next morning to py the rent? Fuck it, I'll take being called a Tube Steak Tarzan... I keep my cool as long as people don't feel the need to lay their hands on me.

I remember Dalton was a little offensive about fat jokes early on, but now he jokes with the best of them. You finally figure out that if you don't respect the person calling you names, his words have no meaning at all, and are irrelevant.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » 2003-06-15 12:46pm

Homosexuality is not wrong, nor unnatural, or unholy, or any other such word you may want to attach to it.

Don't really find it disgusting or particuarly offensive either, just a complete lack of interest more than anything else.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-06-15 01:10pm

im seeing alot of guys who who think the male body is disgusting. i think freud would love the self-hatred implications of that..

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-06-15 01:10pm

I used to be very much against gays when I was younger, and mostly because that was the way society was, and not because of any 'moral code' instilled in me. A 'proper' couple was a man and a woman and that was that, anything else was 'freaky'.

After I got put through an emotionl meat grinder by an evil GF, I found myself commiserating with a friend, a gay guy who went through much the same experience with a BF a few months prior. I saw a gay person as more than just a stereotype for the first time, really, but as a regular person. A lot of my prejudices evaporated shortly after that.

While the idea of male sex is a big turn off for me, but I can still enjoy the friendship of other people... since there is, of course, more to people than just gender.....

A change in attitude about such things usually takes time, though. Social attitudes are built over a course of a lifetime with a cast of thousands and are not turned around in a day.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-06-15 01:32pm

kojikun wrote:im seeing alot of guys who who think the male body is disgusting. i think freud would love the self-hatred implications of that..

*shrug*

I can say, "w00t" while looking at myself in the mirror and it is really me just thinking "I'm going to get sex later". Our personal forms are still disgusting, though. No one said anything about loathsome, Kojikun.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-06-15 01:49pm

What really bothers me is when a person casts themselves in a negative stereotype. Any negagive stereotype. If a guy goes around in skimpy clothes and speasks with a lisp, it pisses me off because they are lending amunition to the religious right...and I do my best to piss those fuckwits off, and it irritates me when people help them, even inadvertently.

I suppose I should clarify my position further.

I have no problem with people that are like this legitimaatly. People whos brains are wired this way, are fine by me, and I have friends who are.

Hell, can be pretty feminine on occasion, I talk with myhands, and for some reason radiate gayness when I speak.

However, when a person who is otherwise 'normal' until they get out in public....I know a few people like that...they irritate me. I have no problem withthem as people, but I suppose it just begs the question why? Why do they do that? It boggles my mind. Then it gets into the whole helping the religious right bash us...then it just starts pissing me off.

And on a side note, I am a gay activist. Not a pride parade maniac...but rather, an actual activist. I work by showing people that people they like, very cool people, are gay. Sure, I am a bit strange, but people know I am a nice guy. Then they learn I am gay, and their perceptions of gay people change.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-06-15 01:56pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:*shrug*

I can say, "w00t" while looking at myself in the mirror and it is really me just thinking "I'm going to get sex later". Our personal forms are still disgusting, though. No one said anything about loathsome, Kojikun.

Regardless. You think its disgusting, so you obviously dont like it except in what it can do for you.

Yanno, they say that advertising and models have a bad affect on GIRLS self image, but I think it has a huge effect on guys self image as well, makign you all think that your bodies are ugly and disgusting.

Wait, something just occured to me. If you guys could change your body to something you wouldnt ind disgusting, and not have to worry about how much sex you get, or how it affects friendships (because in this case it would), what would you make yourself look like?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-06-15 03:02pm

kojikun wrote:
Regardless. You think its disgusting, so you obviously dont like it except in what it can do for you.

Yanno, they say that advertising and models have a bad affect on GIRLS self image, but I think it has a huge effect on guys self image as well, makign you all think that your bodies are ugly and disgusting.

Wait, something just occured to me. If you guys could change your body to something you wouldnt ind disgusting, and not have to worry about how much sex you get, or how it affects friendships (because in this case it would), what would you make yourself look like?

That's a very interesting thought kojikun...what would i change my body into if i could...hmmmm

meanwhile in reference to not finding men attractive, and thereby leading to self disgust etc...(paraphrased)

well, i have long hair...so maybe im thinking of a girl subconsciously when i look in the mirror...who knows?

now what would i look like if i could...more muscular, have a few tattooes (i want a snake on my right arm, and tiger esque stripes down my back) i'd get rid of these glasses, but keep my eyes, i like my eyes, but they're a bit crap as organs...

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-06-15 03:14pm

Regardless. You think its disgusting, so you obviously dont like it except in what it can do for you.

I dunno about that. I'm in pretty good shape, and I am a little proud of my body- but I don't see it as anything more than a tool. I don't find it physically attractive, that's for certain.

How do women feel about their bodies? do they see them as tools, or as something more? a measure of their worth? Does an attractive girl look at herself in the mirror and say "whoa- I'm a hotty?" and think she is a better person for it?