The end of ST vs SW debate is near

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-15 05:29am

With the end of the crap that was Voyger the TNG era Star Trek franchise has ended. Enterprise being highly unpopular would eventualy meet the same fate. And so there will come a day when there are no more Star Trek.

Star Wars too will end with the release of episode3 in 2005. It is already dying considering the poor performence of recent movies and the increasing lack of public interest. Clearly both the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are dying. They had their time of glory and now is the time for them to go.

Soon there will be neither Star Wars nor Star Trek. We will be watching horrible reality shows and the matrix sequels for entertainment. The public taste has changed over the years. They no longer prefer space combat science fiction like they once did. And so I fear that the debators at SD.net would eventualy run out material and this great debate would finaly end.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-06-15 05:33am

No.

Ever heard of merchandice and books?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-06-15 05:38am

By the way, while the main Star Trek franchise has pretty much shot itself in the foot recently, I have to say that you are making a horribly generalising leap in logic to say that both are dying and will soon be completely dead.

I mean really...

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-15 06:44am

The poor performance of the movies? TPM and ANH may be inferior to ANH, ESB (personally I like AOTC better than ROTJ), but they've made obscene amounts of money. As Spanky says, the franchise for both will go on. Enterprise will likely continue for it's entire planned 7-season run. Unfortunately.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-15 09:18am

Didn't TPM make 900 million and AOTC like 400?

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-06-15 09:50am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Didn't TPM make 900 million and AOTC like 400?

Likely, there would have been a lot of hype about a new Star Wars movie that drew it a lot of people besides just the fanboys, and then that black sheep of the series threw off most of the people that weren't really in to the movies.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-15 10:09am

No. That numbers are clearly wrong. Here the correct numbers for worldwide:

1. TPM: 925.500.000$
2. ANH: 798.000.000$
3.ATOC: 648.300.000$
4. ROTJ: 572.900.000$
5. TESB: 533.900.000$

Really suprising. The Empire Strikes Back, the best Film, earned the least money. Really a surprise......

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-06-15 10:17am

Tribun wrote:No. That numbers are clearly wrong. Here the correct numbers for worldwide:

1. TPM: 925.500.000$
2. ANH: 798.000.000$
3.ATOC: 648.300.000$
4. ROTJ: 572.900.000$
5. TESB: 533.900.000$

Really suprising. The Empire Strikes Back, the best Film, earned the least money. Really a surprise......

Does those figures take inflation into account? And aren't you suppose to use commas ( , ) and not periods ( . )? Ie. TESB: $533,900,000.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-06-15 10:26am

Lord of the Farce wrote: And aren't you suppose to use commas ( , ) and not periods ( . )? Ie. TESB: $533,900,000.

Probly some crazy other country method, I know that in Mexico they write phone numbers like this: "66.66.843"

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-06-15 10:29am

The question is: With the death of SW and ST, which will be the next great sci-fi franchises??

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-06-15 10:31am

I say yes. The main people of the conflict is now "winding" down so to speak. Only ones left are the uninformed...~Jason

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-06-15 11:20am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:The question is: With the death of SW and ST, which will be the next great sci-fi franchises??

The Matrix is the current "hot" stuff, with the X-Men a close second.

Farscape has suffered a heart attack, and is still breathing by the DVD's, Firefly will suffer a worse destiny if the DVD's don't give save it, B5 is in strong health, although nothing new has come up from this franchise (books not included), in a lot of countries it is still to premiere, Battlestar Galactica may be given a new breath with the movie, although we're past the age of innocence, but more than likely it will only survive on the DVD market...
These are the ones I came up with so far, I'm not touching the anime market.

In conclusion, nless someone can come up with a sci-fi that attracts both young and older people (nowadays a harder task due to market demands for fast profits (aka weekend premiere profits)), there won't be nothing like ST and SW for the next years.

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-06-15 11:41am

evilcat4000 wrote:With the end of the crap that was Voyger the TNG era Star Trek franchise has ended. Enterprise being highly unpopular would eventualy meet the same fate. And so there will come a day when there are no more Star Trek.

Star Wars too will end with the release of episode3 in 2005. It is already dying considering the poor performence of recent movies and the increasing lack of public interest. Clearly both the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are dying. They had their time of glory and now is the time for them to go.

Soon there will be neither Star Wars nor Star Trek. We will be watching horrible reality shows and the matrix sequels for entertainment. The public taste has changed over the years. They no longer prefer space combat science fiction like they once did. And so I fear that the debators at SD.net would eventualy run out material and this great debate would finaly end.

Enterprise is not 'highly unpopular'.

It is less popular than the other series, but its doing ok.

Star Wars will be over movie wise when EP 3 comes out, but the books etc will live on.

Star Trek needs re-tuning, but if they get some good writers in and put some thought into it, they can make Trek come alive again.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-15 11:45am

Warspite wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:The question is: With the death of SW and ST, which will be the next great sci-fi franchises??
The Matrix is the current "hot" stuff, with the X-Men a close second.

I wonder if the Matrix will have staying power. Its primary demographic is lonely teenagers. They're the ones who truly love the movie because it appeals to all of their geekboy fantasies, especially with the ubiquitous ultra-cool tough-guy imagery (black leather coats, skin-tight leather on the babe, sunglasses, technopunk music blaring while they kick ass in slow-mo, etc). The older you are, the less like you are to be impressed by it (at least, this is true among my acquaintances; 30somethings find it mildly entertaining but vapid and certainly not worthy of effuse praise).

It's fucking stupid (if you could equip yourself to go into combat, would you wear stylish leather and sunglasses, or FUCKING BODY ARMOUR?!?!?), but it passes for "sci-fi" today. Quite sad, really. One could fill books with the plot holes in "The Matrix".

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-15 11:46am

As for the debate itself, it can continue forever. The creation vs evolution debate should have been over a century ago, yet it still persists. There will always be new morons.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-15 11:50am

Darth Wong wrote:I wonder if the Matrix will have staying power. Its primary demographic is lonely teenagers. They're the ones who truly love the movie because it appeals to all of their geekboy fantasies, especially with the ubiquitous ultra-cool tough-guy imagery (black leather coats, skin-tight leather on the babe, sunglasses, technopunk music blaring while they kick ass in slow-mo, etc). The older you are, the less like you are to be impressed by it (at least, this is true among my acquaintances; 30somethings find it mildly entertaining but vapid and certainly not worthy of effuse praise).

It's fucking stupid (if you could equip yourself to go into combat, would you wear stylish leather and sunglasses, or FUCKING BODY ARMOUR?!?!?), but it passes for "sci-fi" today. Quite sad, really. One could fill books with the plot holes in "The Matrix".

Check it out dude, old man crying!

Well we know that the Matrix finishes with the last movie coming out in November, until such time as the creaters change their minds, which apparantely they wont. Whether it will live on in 'Animatrix' or 'Comicmatrix' (guessing) form remains to be seen...

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-15 11:52am

Just wait until "TALAS" comes out. That'll spank all this old stuff!

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-06-15 11:59am

Darth Wong wrote: I wonder if the Matrix will have staying power. Its primary demographic is lonely teenagers. They're the ones who truly love the movie because it appeals to all of their geekboy fantasies, especially with the ubiquitous ultra-cool tough-guy imagery (black leather coats, skin-tight leather on the babe, sunglasses, technopunk music blaring while they kick ass in slow-mo, etc). The older you are, the less like you are to be impressed by it (at least, this is true among my acquaintances; 30somethings find it mildly entertaining but vapid and certainly not worthy of effuse praise).

It's fucking stupid (if you could equip yourself to go into combat, would you wear stylish leather and sunglasses, or FUCKING BODY ARMOUR?!?!?), but it passes for "sci-fi" today. Quite sad, really. One could fill books with the plot holes in "The Matrix".

Quite, that's one of the many problems with current sci-fi (and movies in general, but I may be generalizing too much): the "alienation" of the older spectators, or the use of the "lowest common denominator", for the more profits...

(For me, Matrix is more for the computer tricks than for anything else, but that's a personal opinion, and let's not get into that.)

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-15 12:15pm

Star Wars survived a 16-years gab between the movies, so we don't have to fear, that it will die. It became so big, that it is now INDEPENDENT from more movies. Sure, there is one left, but after that, it won't die.

Trek had the same effect after the end of TOS. It survived 12 years of no new material, before the movies started.
But Trek made a mistake. Now, Trek fans wanted to be fed with new episodes continously, while SW always made clear, that there will be 6 Films an no more.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-15 01:24pm

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Tribun wrote:No. That numbers are clearly wrong. Here the correct numbers for worldwide:

1. TPM: 925.500.000$
2. ANH: 798.000.000$
3.ATOC: 648.300.000$
4. ROTJ: 572.900.000$
5. TESB: 533.900.000$

Really suprising. The Empire Strikes Back, the best Film, earned the least money. Really a surprise......
Does those figures take inflation into account? And aren't you suppose to use commas ( , ) and not periods ( . )? Ie. TESB: $533,900,000.

Not only inflation, but ticket prices. I read somewhere that if you calculate the difference in prices today, and in 1977, ANH is still the highest grossing film in existence.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-06-15 02:35pm

Even an astoundingly weak performance for the remainder of Enterprise will never be able to take away the great series that came before it. Neither franchise is dying to the point that no one will bother to discuss them anymore.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-15 03:40pm

B5 died years ago and it still gets debated.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-06-15 05:35pm

Star Trek: Depends. I think most of the 'old school' fans will drift off if 'Enterprise' turns into a TOTAL load of trash. I.e Porn on a Starfleet ship.
However, the novels will do well for a while, as the TOS, TNG and DS9 characters are fairly enduring. Voyager will endure within it's fan base

Star Wars: They have lots to explore and expand on, and will continue on as long as there is support. The NJO is still doing very well in sales. Hell, 90% of star wars is the EU. The movies will stop after EP3 (unless Lucas dies after and someone gets permission to make more, or if a TV series is authouirized on the novels)

Matrix: Darth Wong pointed out stuff on that worth noting, but that's for another place and time. I think I know the reason for no body armor...

Sci-Fi: Yeah, it's kinda going down the tubes. With reason.

Star Wars and Star Trek came out during the 'space race' era. Hence, Space was the big thing. Therefore, they were in the right place and right time.

Now, the big things in terms of the news are computers and genetics. i.e the Matrix and X-men. The X-men also have that added comic-kick
Problem is, no writers really understand either.

I'm quite sure the authours of the Matrix wouldn't know a CPU chip from a Ram chip, or C++ coding from Pascal coding. (Yes, I used to program in Pascal)

The end problem is this: People don't know, nor care with Sci fi anymore.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-06-15 06:10pm

YT300000 wrote:Not only inflation, but ticket prices. I read somewhere that if you calculate the difference in prices today, and in 1977, ANH is still the highest grossing film in existence.

In the US, anyway, Gone With the Wind with the highest grossing film in history when inflation is factored in. And I believe that ticket price changes fall under the inflation category.

StimNeuro · Post by **StimNeuro** » 2003-06-15 09:35pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:
YT300000 wrote:Not only inflation, but ticket prices. I read somewhere that if you calculate the difference in prices today, and in 1977, ANH is still the highest grossing film in existence.
In the US, anyway, Gone With the Wind with the highest grossing film in history when inflation is factored in. And I believe that ticket price changes fall under the inflation category.

Do the ANH/ESB/ROTJ figures also include the ticket sales from the SE versions, or are they just the original sales?

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