Urge to destroy universe...rising....

[Ryoga]

This was at a MU* I frequent, and was a discussion that really pissed me off.

Basically, someone there had tried to go to a bar and use his military I.D. The bouncer told him that military I.D.s weren't valid there. The guy complained, and the bouncer explained that 'his kind' (military personnel) weren't welcome at the bar. The guy was complaining, thinking people would, y'know, agree that that was pretty whack...but no, everyone's on the bar's side, saying that not only does the bar owner have every right to tell military personnel to fuck off (which, admittedly, he does), but he was morally justified as well. The whole conversation went downhill from there, and now I'm feeling a touch homicidal. Anyone else think this is very wrong? I might post the log tomorrow, if anyone wants to see...

[Hamel]

I'd like to know the entire story first, but if it happened the way you're telling us, that just ain't right.

[Enforcer Talen]

I dunno. wasnt there a big thing against discrimination during the 60s?

[Raptor 597]

I dunno. wasnt there a big thing against discrimination during the 60s?

Yeah, the "Peace Loving Hippies" would call the soldiers babykillers, pelt them with items, and even attack some. Fucking sad and the soldiers didn't hit back just walked away with a grim face and wet eye for the hatred they were receiving.

[RogueIce]

Yeah, the "Peace Loving Hippies" would call the soldiers babykillers, pelt them with items, and even attack some. Fucking sad and the soldiers didn't hit back just walked away with a grim face and wet eye for the hatred they were receiving.

Ah yes, gotta love the hypocrisy of that...

"Bring the Soldiers home NOW!"

*Soldiers get home, only to be called baby killers, harrassed, etc...*

[Gandalf]

How does that guy have rights to refuse service to military personnel?

[Raptor 597]

How does that guy have rights to refuse service to military personnel?

I do believe any business can refuse service to anyone. I'm not real familiar with this.

[Howedar]

Correct.

[RedImperator]

Businesses can refuse to serve anyone they please for any reason, EXCEPT those specifically laid out in the Civil Rights Act or the Americans With Disabilities Act (there may be more, but I can't think of them right now). And those people protected by those acts are only protected from being refused service on the basis of race or disability--they can still get tossed for any other reason, or no reason at all (this obviously gets a little sketchy--throw one black man in a wheelchair out because you don't like his face, you're exercising your right as a business owner, throw two out and you're violating the law).

[Tsyroc]

When I was in Florida I had to have a driver liscense to buy alcohol. I couldn't use my military I.D. I'm not sure why this was because you have to be an idiot to either alter or forge a military I.D. Supposedly it was a state law.

The funny thing was, my Arizona liscense still said "Under 21" in big red print because I had renewed it a month early.

[Ryoga]

Okay, here's the whole story. Watch out, it's long (I probably could have edited out the people entering and leaving the room, but I didn't want to edit anything that happened during the conversation...I did, however, cut nearly 2000 lines of me checking out the message board there. )

[Ryoga]

Tau has disconnected.
Tau has connected.
Tau grr. Stupid connection.
Misako says, "The DOBs are in a funky format, according to the bouncer at a bar I go to."
Davi has arrived.
Tau heads into the descing room.
Tau has left.
Kri has connected.
Kri has disconnected.
Davi passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Davi has left.
Kentaro passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Kentaro has left.
Rune is a bouncer at a bar, and it has the day, the abbrv of the month and then the last two digits of the year they were born on.
Andais has arrived.
Daire says, "On a military ID? the DOB is day month year, ex 01JUL1969 How funky a format is that?"
Misako shrugs. "Could be BS, but that bar will accept Out of State IDs.
Misako says, "And most military people I know carry both forms."
Clive passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Clive has left.
Shana says, "But, in NC, they're not proof of age. Niether are out of state IDs."
Kentaro has arrived.
Shana says, "It's possibly a way to make more money on the over-charged for State IDs, but that's how the government works here."
Kentaro passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Kentaro has left.
Celes has disconnected.
Daire says, "In NC, proof of age is accepted by DLs military Ids and passports."
Namir has connected.
Daire says, "I deal with ALE on a regular basis so I know."
Misako says, "ALE?"
Daire says, "Alcohol Law Enforcement"
Cooper says, "I thought this discussion as about being unpatriotic? Not id's.. "
Misako says, "Oh."
Cooper says, "as - was"
Daire says, "Did you miss the discussion on proof of age in Nc?"
Hernando says, "Daire... standard format is MMDDYY, 120802."
Daire says, "Not on the new IDs its not"
Cooper says, "Did you miss the fact a private establishment has the right to refuse whom-so-ever they please?"
Daire I did not, and I responded to it
Andais has left.
Misako says, "As long as they're not being racist."
Shana says, "By making a vague threat about "Right people"."
Cooper says, "We have an /all/ japanese baseball team here..and schools for children that have to prove they're of Hawai'ian ancestry. So come on...an id is rather small compared to that border on racism."
Hernando says, "Or that freedom of speech is limited in a private establishment? If some one walked into the bar you work at, and started screaming sexist obscenities, wouldn't he get thrown out?"
Achromatic says, "Okay, in simple terms, what exactly is 'unpatriotic' about not accepting military ID, and stating their opinion that military personnel are unwelcome?"
Daire says, "If he was being disruptive, yes, I was not being disruptive, and I was having a conversation with one person."
Mikal thinks that if you were asked to leave, you probably were indeed being disruptive.
Hernando says, "And they're suppose to know that you won't get drunk and /become/ disruptive?"
Snow Queen has arrived.
Tau arrives from the descing room.
Tau has arrived.
Wonder Girl has arrived.
Tau rumbles. Bored.
You say, "It shows that, rather than simply being opposed to the war for whatever reasons, you dislike /soldiers of your country's military/. Most people call that ingratitude."
Snow Queen pounces........Hernando!!!!
Misako says, "Because, by refusing Military, you're not 'supporting our troops' Bunch of BS."
Hernando says, "They saw a potential problem, and handled it as quickly as possible... OOOMF!"
Kagato<--- My two yen.
Wonder Girl steps in the pub, searching for soulmates and traveling companions.
Wonder Girl has left.
Wonder Girl emerges from the Bar and Grill, slightly dizzy..
Wonder Girl has arrived.
Achromatic says, "Not even, it could mean that you dislike the actions of the military leadership?"
Hernando worked as a bouncer for 6 months before leaving for Boot, Daire. I know the score.
Snow Queen kisses Misako on the cheek
Numa says, "I personally think that if you want to make their attitude known, that is your right as a citizen, and you will find that many others won't patronize them because of it. They have the right to make that choice, but there are always consequences to any discrimination."
Tau squints. Why are you people having this discussion again?
Hernando says, "Again?"
Wonder Girl has left.
Hernando says, "Still, Tau. Still."
Achromatic says, "Funny, I always thought that unpatriotic was to be 'unloving of one's country'"
Hernando doesn't love his country, /because/ he was in the military.
Misako says, "I support our troops, but not the war. I think I will be discriminatory, once I open my store. Assholes are not allowed."
Achromatic says, "The country is different to the military, or its leadership."
Misako smooches Snowie.
Hernando says, "True, but I met the dregs of american society in the military, Achro."
Amadeus emerges from the Welcome Room.
Amadeus has arrived.
Amadeus decides to go and create a character.
Amadeus has left.
Tau thought maybe he'd logged onto Fox News MUX.
Snow Queen purrrs at Misako and curls up on Hernando's lap
Tau, totally ignored. Hrmph.
Leather has connected.
Cooper trains an army of automaton killing machines! "Now if this robot says he hates me he's unpatriotic to the United Automaton Army of Cooper."
Misako met Goddam mormons in the military.
Leather passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Leather has left.
Cooper says, "I have two mormons that come to my house every Sunday."
You say, "The country, and the military, are also different from the soldiers you're screwing over for no real reason than a difference in political opinion. But, this is America, and you're allowed to restrict your business so long as people's civil rights are upheld. I'm also allowed to say that anyone who does that is a fucking asshole. "
Daire says, "And that is what I intend to do, Numa. I will make sure that enough people know of the attitude of this bar, and I am not the only one doing so. So, the fact that military is unwelcome at the bar will be public knowledge in a short time, and those who do not appreciate the fact, will act appropriately."
Voyeur1 has disconnected.
You say, "Speaking metaphorically, of course, since I don't think the owner of the bar is one of the people here, ne?"
Mikal says, "How is disagreeing with what the gov't is doing screwing over the soldiers, Kagato?"
Tau, himself, was very much against the war. But is smart enough to understand that the soldiers aren't there for any political agenda of their own, so there's no point in being angry at the rank and file.
You say, "Oh. Anyway."
Numa says, "I see no problem with that. Its your right to boycott any business you choose. Just as much as its their right to make their own policies."
Numa shrugs.
You say, "Because you're telling soldiers that they aren't welcome in your bar because of it."
Tau says, "However, the jackboots-that-be liked to try to spin it that if you were against the war, you had a grudge against the troops personally."
Achromatic says, "What I think is ingratitude is your leader asking Australia to join the war on Iraq, and after us doing so, using American bombs on Australian planes to bomb targets designated by American command, the American government stuck their hand out, coughed, and asked us to pay for the bombs we'd used."
Uanui has arrived.
Kyen has connected.
Mikal says, "As I said, Kagato.... how is this screwing over a soldier?"
Zaraa has arrived.
Zaraa goes home.
Zaraa has left.
Aislinn has connected.
Cooper says, "I say pay for whatever..give Australia whatever they'd like. Mad Max ruled. Simple as that."
Kagato sighs. Okay, I'll break it down. Soldiers = not policy-makers. Policy-makers = not soldiers.
Aislinn passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Aislinn has left.
Tau says, "What is this all about? I gather a bar owner refused to serve a soldier because of being against the war?"
Rori says, "Nope...not even that, Tau."
Cooper says, "Kicked Daire out...yeah"
[Newbie] Allerian says, "I don't suppose anyone could refer me to a document with information on "Powers", could they?"
Rori goes back to finding clothes.
Mikal says, "I'm well aware of that, Kagato. But what you said is that the soldiers are being screwed over for no real reason than a difference in political opinion (sic)."
Tau says, "Well, that's just stupidity. But at the same time, he has the right to do it."
Motley has connected.
Shana says, "No, someone questioned a policy of not taking military IDs and got kicked out for that."
Hernando says, "No, refuses military ID as proof of age, and doesn't welcome military personnel, Tau."
Tau says, "Military IDs aren't authorized for use as ID outside of military purposes, really."
Uanui steps in the pub, searching for soulmates and traveling companions.
Uanui has left.
You say, "Yeah. You have a difference in political opinion than the policy-makers, and are punishing the soldiers because of it. You think Congress cares? "
Achromatic says, "Shana, /after/ getting on their soapbox about unpatriotic acts "
Bryon says, "And the person in question came here looking for justification and approval for what she wants to do."
Hernando says, "Daire voiced her opinion (loudly I'm sure) and was 86'd."
Tau says, "You're still expected to have a drivers license, etc."
Rori ponders seeing if WalMart has out their SPURS CHAMPIONSHIP tees yet.
Mikal says, "How the FUCK is refusing service at a *BAR* punishing someone? How many places can one purchase alcohol in this country, again?"
Bryon eyes Rori, "Probably not. Even they wouldn't have thought it'd happen."
Uanui emerges from the Bar and Grill, slightly dizzy..
Uanui has arrived.
Tau grr. Stupid roommate is back.
Rori is gonna check anyways. =p
Mikal says, "And it wasn't even about refusing service. It was refusing to accept military ID>"
Cooper says, "We have military /only/ bars down here."
Cooper says, "Not on base either so."
Sabra has disconnected.
Tau says, "Just like any other business owner, they have the right to set the policies in their own place, as long as they don't violate any laws."
Tau says, "If they don't want to serve you because you're wearing a blue shirt, that's their right."
Cooper says, "What's the difference in them not letting me in because I /don't/ have a military ID and this bar in NC not allowing someone using a military ID in?"
Daire says, "I asked for NO ONE's approval or justification for any such thing, Bryon. I do what I please, how I please."
Nate Grey has disconnected.
You say, "Because they're also saying that if you're in the military /you aren't welcome/."
Cooper says, "Because you live in the United States..heh"
Kyen has disconnected.
Shia has connected.
Uanui passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Uanui has left.
Hernando says, "Then why tell us, Daire?"
Cooper says, "And your right to do what you please how you please, is the same right that the bar owner had."
Bryon says, "You came and asked for our opinions on it. Thus you were seeking justification. Otherwise you would have just done it. *shrug*"
Rori says, "That's within their rights, Kagato."
Illian has connected.
Misako says, "Main reason we don't accept Military ID for checks is because we're not supposed to put SSNs on checks, not since we switched to unique DL/ID numbers. As per the Chamber of Commerce."
You say, "And, like I said, I'm merely exercising my right to say that person's a goddamn sonofabitch. They have every right to do it. "
Mikal says, "Kagato.. let me pose this question to you. If I walk up to a bar that says "We do not accept Canadian ID." and show them a Canadian ID card, should they let me in, if I'm 21?"
Tau can understand being angry. That's fine. Spread the word so that people know about the experience you had, and most likely in the current political climate, his business will suffer.
Sabra has connected.
Cooper says, "What's up with being so petty anyway?"
Achromatic is still wondering where all those WMDs are.
You say, "Hell no. But if he, say, had a valid idea and you told him 'Your kind ain't welcome here', what sort of reaction do you think people would have?"
You say, "Valid I.D., even. Blah."
Cooper says, "If they don't want you there "turn the other cheek" or whatever you believe in and let it slide."
Senesk has disconnected.
Cooper says, "Life is too short."
Amadeus returns from CharGen, all set up.
Amadeus has arrived.
Tau says, "Maybe the guy's hiding WMDs in his bar. That's why he doesn't want military personnel in there."
Tau says, "Maybe Saddam's sleeping behind the kegs of Bud Light."
Cooper says, "Maybe a military guy grabbed his gf's ass and he thinks they're pricks."
Daire says, "That is what I intend to do, Tau, and I have already begun to do so. And Why can I not come in here and talk about what is on my mind when others do it all fucking day and night long, Hernando?'"
Achromatic says, "You can."
Hernando says, "I didn't say you couldn't."
Achromatic says, "And we are too."
Mikal shrugs at Kagato. "However, that's not the issue. If the bar specifically says "We don't accept military ID", then tough shit. The bar certainly didn't instigate a fight... in this case, the bouncer or the 'tender or whatever made the comment after someone else said that policy was BS."
Mikal says, "And unpatriotic."
Amadeus says, "...it doesn't require a BG to finish Chargen?"
Cooper says, "Nope."
Shana says, "You can. And we can say we think you're wrong."
Snow Queen thinks she will try the grid
Snow Queen has left.
Seraph has connected.
Achromatic wonders where you were told to shut up.
Tau says, "This polarization going on in the US these days is /really/ dangerous."
Numa thinks that this argument would have been quite different had they said 'we don't serve Hispanics or Jews'.
Amadeus says, "So there's no approval process?"
Shia has disconnected.
Cooper says, "Nope."
You say, "Well, I'm glad you said it, Numa. I almost did."
Amadeus has partially disconnected.
Hernando says, "But if you're going to take action against a business for having a policy you disagree with (which I heartily encourage, btw. Never be satisfied with the status quo) don't waste time asking us how /we/ feel. They're well within their rights, right or wrong, to deny service to military personnel."
Achromatic says, "Yeah, it would."
Achromatic says, "Because they never said that."
Tau is sure this'll result in a lynch mob soon enough anyway.
Hernando says, "Just go /do/ it."
Achromatic says, "So it would be a stupid analogy."
Motley raises his hand, palm upwards, and a cool blue sphere manifests there.
Daire says, "Once again for those who missed it, I asked about the policy of not accepting military IDs, and I was told point blank they did not like or want military people in the bar."
Mikal says, "Okay, so if I'm from Mars, and I go raise a fuss in a bar because of one of their stated policies, suddenly the bar is racist against Martians if I'ma sked to leave for being an asshole?"
Amai emerges from the Welcome Room.
Amai has arrived.
Mikal says, "What kind of crack are you people SMOKING?!"
Amadeus passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Amadeus has left.
Hernando says, "So boycott them."
Kagato points to Daire's comment.
Dove grins at Mikal. "Decaffeinated crack. It has more Retsin."
Mikal says, "Daire, I recall you saying that you made it clear to them that you didn't agree with that policy, and that it was "unpatriotic"."
Tau will also say this as a reallllly broad generalization. Places where military congregate and drink often get ROUGH.
Rune has reconnected.
Tau says, "Especially enlisted/NCO hangouts."
Mikal says, "We're getting one side of the story here."
Hernando says, "Just do it /carefully/, so you're not busted for liable."
Mikal says, "There's three sides. Yours, theirs, and the truth."
Hernando says, "Liabel too."
Mikal says, "Libel, actually. "
Illian says, "I am betting that they are trying to keep the inter-military fighting down in the bar by denying ALL military."
Tau says, "Libel."
Motley passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Motley has left.
Rune has partially disconnected.
Daire says, "And as I have already stated, hernando, I have already started to do exactly that. There is only so much can be done in a weekend when no one is in the places of business that I wish to contact."
Hernando says, "Pfft. You knew what the fuck I meant."
Tau says, "And libel is written, this'd likely be slander unless he calls the paper "
Kalen has arrived.
Evensong follows at the side of Kalen.
Evensong has arrived.
Cooper says, "Who are you gonna contact? The goose steppers union?"
Kalen passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Kalen has left.
Evensong follows at the side of Kalen.
Evensong has left.
Misako has disconnected.
Seraph passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Seraph has left.
Tau says, "Honestly, the best thing to do here is just to find another place to drink."
Hernando says, "While /they/ are within their rights to refuse service, you're well within /your/ rights to take proper action against them if you disagree with that policy."
Amadeus has arrived.
Amadeus passes through the IC portal and heads out onto the grid.
Amadeus has left.
Misako has connected.
Illian says, "Hell Tau, you don't have to say it as a generalization, I was there. It did get rough. About the only place that you could safely drink with a mix of branches of personnel was On Base!"
Mikal hehs. That'd be my response. They don't want my business, no biggie. I find somewhere else to buy things.
Achromatic says, "Y'know, a gym chain here was bought out. The owners summarily cancelled all male memberships. Some males went to the anti-discrimination commission, and lost their case to have it found discriminatory. Out of curiosity, some other males decided to start an all male gym chain, and as a result, some females went to that same commission, where they /won/ their case to have it found discriminatory. Ya know? Life sucks. Wear a helmet."
Daire says, "I have absolutely no intention of ever darkening that bar's doorstep with my shadow ever again."
Numa says, "I personally think that calling the newspaper is precisely the right type of action to take in regards to discriminatory policies."
Hernando is, infact, a big fan of civil disobedience. Peaceful or otherwise.
Rune steps in the pub, searching for soulmates and traveling companions.
Rune has left.
Numa shrugs and goes to bed.
Hernando prefers otherwise, personally, but... thats just me.
Bryon goes to bed with Numa, much more entertaining.
Shana says, "The News and Disturber would run an editorial... Noone would /care/, but..."
Numa grumbles and rattles her chains.
Numa has left.
Bryon has left.
Misako says, "I know why they cancelled the male memberships."
Tau says, "Whereabouts is this happening?"
Judecca emerges from the Welcome Room.
Judecca has arrived.
Shana says, "Raleigh."
Judecca decides to go and create a character.
Judecca has left.
"Newpapers, Radio stations, TV stations, base commanders, Chamber of Commerce...Websites, etc!
Achromatic says, "Hmmm, Misako?"
Tau says, "Oh, good lord, in the South? The guy will be lucky if he doesn't have a burning cross on his lawn if you tell a couple people about this."
Mikal rather thinks there's a difference between discrimation vs legally acceptable policy, personal opinion vs business opinion, and incitement vs blatant statement.
Amadeus has arrived.
Rori is going to the store now to buy SPURS Stuff.
Shana says, "North Carolina isn't the deep south..."

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

It might be a myth. http://www.snopes.com/military/shunned.php Still, I'm sure there are some people out there that would deny the man service if it was up to them.

[Exonerate]

Ryoga, which MUD (MUSH?) is that?

[Ryoga]

Shangrila MUSH. Or maybe it's Shangrila MUCK. I dunno, and it doesn't matter either way.