George Lucas', and Matt Stover's Stupidity (Spoilers)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well that's all good and dandy Ender, except for militaries normally have to gain and hold territory.

The Security Forces in the TPM era should've number billions. 1.2 million can't even police a major world. 1.2 million is all but militarily worthless on a galactic scale. It doesn't work because that's not how wars are fought, and more importantly, not how this war is being fought.

All of the WMD used thus far has been by the CIS. Bioweapons, chem weapons, terrorist strikes, assassinations, superweapons, technological terrors--all of these have been CIS monopolies.

You simply HAVE TO have an Army to take and hold territory; its that simple. 1.2 million troops are utterly insignificant in a conflict as large was we're talking.

Furthermore, you have to be drunk and blindfolded to recognize from AOTC, the OT, and the EU that the Clones are not supposed to be the frontline troops of the Republic that will become the unbiqutous stormtroopers.

The number is absurd. So are the apologetics.

Especially, as per the TTT, the devestation is supposed to be in the previously unheard of scale of the conflict and the horrors of the clones, no WMD. WMD does not replace Armies. And the Republic isn't using it. Your argument just isn't there.

[Enforcer Talen]

although, I like the idea of using wmds to limit troop numbers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

although, I like the idea of using wmds to limit troop numbers.

Ender's argument might make sense if the number was remotely passable, like 1.2 billion, and if the GR was actually using WMD, rather than the CIS, which is what is happening.

[Enforcer Talen]

But WHO in the right mind thinks millions in an army is anywhere near enough on a galactic scale.

Earth's nations can field better than the Grand Army.

Anyone try for a fix?

Maybe they're Texas Rangers?

"You only sent one soldier?"
"Well, you only got one planet, don't ya?"

The Grand Army might be heavily supported by local militia forces. In Shatterpoint, there's mention that many of the Jedi have been sent to raise such local forces. That's what prompted the quote that started the thread, namely that the Clone Troopers would be doing that themselves if the Republic weren't so short of troops that they couldn't spare the clones from the frontlines.

It sounds like the Clone Troopers would be doing Green Beret-style training of the indigenous populations to wage war if the Republic wasn't hurtin' for meat to feed into the Separatist grinder. Which brings us back to the point of the thread -- I'd actually say Stover's pointing out that 1.2 million isn't enough for the Republic, which is why those elite troops are being used as frontline infantry rather than as special support for regular forces and local militia.

-- Joe Momma

perhaps if combined with this idea?

[Illuminatus Primus]

But WHO in the right mind thinks millions in an army is anywhere near enough on a galactic scale.

Earth's nations can field better than the Grand Army.

Anyone try for a fix?

Maybe they're Texas Rangers?

"You only sent one soldier?"
"Well, you only got one planet, don't ya?"

The Grand Army might be heavily supported by local militia forces. In Shatterpoint, there's mention that many of the Jedi have been sent to raise such local forces. That's what prompted the quote that started the thread, namely that the Clone Troopers would be doing that themselves if the Republic weren't so short of troops that they couldn't spare the clones from the frontlines.

It sounds like the Clone Troopers would be doing Green Beret-style training of the indigenous populations to wage war if the Republic wasn't hurtin' for meat to feed into the Separatist grinder. Which brings us back to the point of the thread -- I'd actually say Stover's pointing out that 1.2 million isn't enough for the Republic, which is why those elite troops are being used as frontline infantry rather than as special support for regular forces and local militia.

-- Joe Momma

perhaps if combined with this idea?

It is still insignificant. I'm with Ossus. Even if he was pointing that out, unless he was told to leave it 1.2 million, it is stupid. Especially since the 1000 Acclamator order means a minimum of 16 million troops. Inside the Worlds tells us the same "millions" beyond the 1.2.

[Darth Wong]

OK, two points:

1) LFL is a large organization, and undoubtedly has competing "factions" like any other large organization. One of them clearly wants smaller scope (most likely it is composed of RPG people and their allies), while the other probably wants larger scope (it would presumably be composed of canon purists). Look at the way the prequels have repeatedly knocked down longstanding EU claims (such as the idiotic notion that the 900-metre long VSD was the largest vessel ever built by the Republic). We are merely seeing another example of this problem. GL's sense of scale may be questionable, but he DID write about 10,000 star systems moving over to the separatists in one fell swoop in his AOTC script, and he DID write about the Empire having a million star systems in ANH. Do not leap to the conclusion that he subscribes to the "small scale" faction's beliefs just because he writes movies that focus on the actions of the few. There are mighty engines of commerce, political, and military power moving behind the scenes in all of his stories (eg- how did DS2 get built).

2) The quote does not say ANYTHING about clonetroopers being used as security forces. In fact, it appears that they are more of a SpecOps force, used for rapid insertions into hotspots. In fact, the author complains that they don't have time to let the clonetroopers train security forces! Just consider the clonetroopers an elite unit of the Imperial Army; such a force might legitimately be small. The other millions of troopers might be getting a lower grade of training than the first batch, since they are presumably being rushed out the door (notice that the Geonosis clonetroopers' armour was already scratched and marked even though this was their very first battle; they must have undergone numerous training exercises outside of a simulator).

[Robert Treder]

(notice that the Geonosis clonetroopers' armour was already scratched and marked even though this was their very first battle; they must have undergone numerous training exercises outside of a simulator).

ItWoAotC shows large training grounds in the Kaminoan cities used for live-fire excercises of large scope (including AT-TE formations). So, you're right.

[Illuminatus Primus]

ItWoAotC

Now that, is an acronym.

I still think that they are trying to portray the clonetroopers as the only offensive military and 1.2 million individuals.

Mike's idea, combined with my point that the 1.2 million refers specifically to the expeditionary force that came immediately from Tipoca City, suggests there could be other clonetroopers of lower quality not available and attached to garrisons or sieges and not available for training conscripts or to help with new offensives, which the first shock force of 1.2 million has both the experience and flexibility for.

[Crown]

Couldn't we consider the 1.2 million clonetroopers as the equivalent of special forces, rather than the actual Army?

[Axis Kast]

Remember. Mace says in the book that they couldn't even put a single trooper on every one of the Republic's planets.

There were barely 100,000 clones at Geonosis. And that was the bulk of the Grand Army to that time.

In the EU, constant references are made to the fact that the Imperial Fleet seen in RoTJ was a supremely rare gathering.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Like to back that up, Kast?


Furthermore, the sheer scale of the galaxy painted by the canon is tantamount to nitpicking that whole sector groups' worth of Star Destroyers are rarely committed to a single engagement. That's a red herring, and apologetics for idiotic minimalism.

[Axis Kast]

Apologetics?

What is it with you people and finding the argument. I brought you facts.

Jesus Christ. This fucking board is more combative than anyplace I've ever been. You people just hunt for a fight, don't you?

How do I know the Republic can't put a man on every planet? The same quote of Stover's in which we learn that here are 1.2 million clones.

How do I know there were 100,000 clones at Geonosis? The Worlds of Episode II book.

How do I know a sector fleet is rare? Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels (I think; that or the West End Games errata).

[Cal Wright]

Star Wars Republic 50

Let's see if this either hurts or helps if not just muddies the water

Obi Wan Kenobi briefing the assembled Jedi for the Battle of Kamino

"Kamino still has about a million ore more clone troopers in various stages of preparation. A successful attack by the confederacy might cripple the republic. Instead, Master Rancisis has devised a strategy that may cripple them. Master..."

Taun We

"Our energy sheilds will protect us from energy weapons, but will NOT repel ground troops."

"and the majority of the clones here are not yet battle ready."

Commander Merai in orbit over Kamino

"You're right. The Federation's forces ARE suffering-our bankroll too. If we don't shut down Kamino, the Republic WILL have a LIMITLESS supply of troops"

Well, now I don't give a flying fuck if they only have FIVE troopers to start with. The Republic forces and the Jedi won the Battle of Kamino, so now they will have a limitless supply of clones. Fuck you minimalists.

[YT300000]

even if you destroy cities, you need to take ground. . .

Or instate a scorched-earth policy.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Or instate a scorched-earth policy.

I doubt it. Incidents like Caamas were rare enough to the only mention of a Clone Wars BDZ in all of Star Wars literature. Although the CIS does employ some chem/bio weapons, it always seems like the Republic is a step ahead of them with the cure.

[YT300000]

Or instate a scorched-earth policy.

I doubt it. Incidents like Caamas were rare enough to the only mention of a Clone Wars BDZ in all of Star Wars literature. Although the CIS does employ some chem/bio weapons, it always seems like the Republic is a step ahead of them with the cure.

Exactly. So the Republic will not have such a policy. Which leads us back to the 1.2 million units is ridiculously low point this thread began with.

[Slartibartfast]

Apparently Clone Troopers are so good they can place 0.000001 trooper in each planet to keep the peace.

[Slartibartfast]

Additionally, to pacify 10,000 worlds going independent, I don't think 120 troopers would make a difference in each one.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's why I'm wondering how many actual planets are being militarily contested. Does the Republic even have a million planets at this point?

Low-end estimates say something like 32,768 full-member worlds and ~40 million planets as opposed to the 1 million full-member worlds and 50 million planets of the empire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And I think now of the clone troopers on the Halleck, and how their clean crisp unquestioning bravery and discipline under fire is as far from these ragged murderers as it is possible to be for members of the same species... and I remember that the Grand Army of the Republic numbers 1.2 million clone troopers- just enough to station a single trooper- one lone man- on each planet of the Republic, and have a handful of thousands left over.

[Master of Ossus]

And I think now of the clone troopers on the Halleck, and how their clean crisp unquestioning bravery and discipline under fire is as far from these ragged murderers as it is possible to be for members of the same species... and I remember that the Grand Army of the Republic numbers 1.2 million clone troopers- just enough to station a single trooper- one lone man- on each planet of the Republic, and have a handful of thousands left over.

The Republic's only got a million member worlds, now? WTF?

[Stravo]

And I think now of the clone troopers on the Halleck, and how their clean crisp unquestioning bravery and discipline under fire is as far from these ragged murderers as it is possible to be for members of the same species... and I remember that the Grand Army of the Republic numbers 1.2 million clone troopers- just enough to station a single trooper- one lone man- on each planet of the Republic, and have a handful of thousands left over.

The Republic's only got a million member worlds, now? WTF?

What's wrong with that figure, doesn't ANH mention a million world Empire?

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's right everyone. The "Grand Army of the Republic" numbers 1.2 million individuals plus a couple thousands left.

[Towlie]

I think GL doesn't want to make large armies. He may believe that the actions of the main characters might mean less, seem less plausible, or seem less important if we're dealing with armies of a thousand billion soldiers in ten million starships. It might cause some audiences to wonder "How much of an impact can these guys really make? Can they only rely on being at key places at key times?"

This is kinda like how WEG intentionally kept the scale small (planets w/about 5 billion people on average in some areas) so that small bands of RPGers could feel that they're making a bigger difference instead of being lost in a sea of humans and other lifeforms.

You're right though - GL hasn't really thought through how many soldiers are needed to police his fantasy world. But when he wants big scale, he asks for it. The problem is that he hasn't planned it all out beforehand and doesn't care to. He lets the EU pick up for him.

[Master of Ossus]

Why do RPGers feel they're making a big difference if they help one planet with 5 billion people, even though that's only a TINY fraction of the beings in one sector? Why wouldn't they feel as if they're making just as big a difference if they helped 10% of a system with 50 billion people in it?

The fate of the entire Galaxy--trillions of beings--rested on the actions of what a few people did. If anything, SW is the story of what an enormous impact people like Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker can have, and how big the consequences of their choices can be.

I don't think that the WotC people have any idea what kind of a massive army would be needed in the Republic.