Can oppressive gov't be justified by a good living standard?

[Peregrin Toker]

Well, I recently debated with my fath over the subject of capitalism vs. collectivism, and he argued that a collectivized economy was better because many people in Eastern Europe live miserable lives today while they had a high life standard under Communism. (he used this "argument" as a response to my reminder of the famines which the USSR deliberately inflicted upon its population)

He also implied that food, shelter and free healthcare for the populace was all that mattered.

When I reminded him that Communist governments usually violate as many human rights as possible, he pointed to the fact that 40% of Poland's population suffers from undernourishment, which they didn't under the Polish Communist regime. (Thus implying that human rights violations were OK as long all citizens had a decent standard of living)

Your comments??

[Stravo]

Collectivism only really works if there are other nations around it that are willing to trade and share. Look at Cuba, free health care, free education and the people are fucking starving. Why? Because there aren't many nations willing to trade on a barter level which is what Cuba has been reduced to. The USSR was willing to barter Cuba's sugar for oil and goods but now that they're gone, what's left.

Even when the system was "working" there was never much of anything, food or medicine wise and people were still going out on innner tubes to come here.

So Collectivism does not work in a predominately captialist world and is a blight on society that should best be forgotten for causing far more suffering than it ever cured.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You know my stance on human rights.

An oppresive government should be overthrown. Any country where you are afraid of secret polce arresting you secretly i the middle of the ght, must not be allowed to exist[the government]

[Alyrium Denryle]

Damn typo demons

[RedImperator]

<snort> Would that I had a time machine, so that I could take your father back to Poland circa 1986 and have him ask a 40 year old engineer with multiple advanced degrees who lives in a 600 sq. ft. apartment with his parents and routinely stands in line for ten hours to buy a sack of potatoes about his quality of life.

Not only did Communism treat people like shit, it didn't even improve their material happiness. There's a reason people risked their lives to get past the Berlin Wall.

[Knife]

*shrug* While alot of people might be content to be spoon fed by the goverment, there will always be those (myself included) who wish to improve ourselves and want to do it on our own. These people will always rebel against such a Big Brother goverment because we feel we can provide for ourselves better than a bueracracy.

[Sea Skimmer]

These nice high standards communist states FAILED. Clearly the system was not superior since it couldn't keep it up.

The comparison between how a former communist nation is now and how is under communism after several decades is a flawed one. It took the communist's years to reaches their standards of living which where really quite low, look at the Soviet Union in the 20's and 30's. The fact that adapting a capitalist system is taking a similar length of time is hardly ammunition to use against it.

[Darth Wong]

After speaking to recent Russian immigrants in my neighbourhood, I have concluded that a lot of qualified, ambitious, hard-working people in Russia are doing much better now than they were doing before. In fact, they claim that Moscow is much more capitalistic than Toronto at the present time.

However, they did note that the people who were lazy, unambitious, and lacked up-to-date job skills were suffering much more now than they did under the old regime, where (as Lech Walensa put it) "we pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us".

[Rye]

Comfortable life in a totalitarian regime would simply be a guilded prison. Freedom is worth fighting and dying for, i would do both. Well, for mine at least.

[Glocksman]

This is the same defense that the Che and Castro lovers use.

"But Fidel feeds and clothes his people and they get free heathcare, and anyone who disagrees with 'El Maximum Lider' is a Batista thug'.

I guess the million Cubans who fled between 1960 and 1986 were all Batista thugs and that the 5% of the current population who entered the US immigration lottery are as well.

Hell, with this many thugs, how did Batista lose power?

If losing freedom in exchange for minimal healthcare, food and housing appeal to you, I'd suggest robbing a bank or counterfeiting.

You'll get substandard federal housing for the next 10 years complete with free healthcare and 3 squares a day.

[PeZook]

Well, I recently debated with my fath over the subject of capitalism vs. collectivism, and he argued that a collectivized economy was better because many people in Eastern Europe live miserable lives today while they had a high life standard under Communism.

No, they didn't. Standing in a 300 meter long line just to get fucking TOILET PAPER is NOT what I call a high standard of living.

Sure, you got free healthcare. Which was ineffective, bloated and often lacked the most basic medicine, that you had to buy for hundreds of dollars on the black market...

He also implied that food, shelter and free healthcare for the populace was all that mattered.

Sure it is (although I would rather be inclined to say that HAPPINESS of the populace is all that really matters) - too bad the communist system DID NOT provide food and shelter for everybody. Unless you call cramping three families into one small flat providing shelter, and food rationing - providing nourishment...during the agony of communism here, you could only get meat if you knew a farmer personally, or the government decided to release some (they usually did during Christmas)

When somebody received a food package from their relatives living abroad, they usually made a big friggin' party with just ONE food package...and it was considered a great event.

When I reminded him that Communist governments usually violate as many human rights as possible, he pointed to the fact that 40% of Poland's population suffers from undernourishment, which they didn't under the Polish Communist regime.

I won't deny that the problem indeed does exist. However, it was worse at the end of the regime, when you simply HAD to know the right people in the right places to get enough food for your family. And, since most of the poor people here are simply not able to get by on the mostly-free market with the out-of-date skills they have, they are unable to get enough money for their food. Lack of work and basic food products in stores was one of the main reasons behind the periodic strike waves during Polish communism. And, guess what - when the people were out on the streets protesting, they were usually treated to a nice barrage of 7.62x39 ammo, the live kind. So - little food, no pay, try to protest - you have a good chance of getting shot. I for one wouldn't want to live like that.

[Peregrin Toker]

<SNIP>

Even worse - my father has actually experienced communism in practice - he was once in Czechoslovakia during the 1970s or possibly the 1980s in some sort of "friendship camp". (some sort of gathering of volunteers from all over the world who came there to help the building of a retirement home)

And, despite having been in Eastern Europe during the heyday of Communism, he STILL defends it! I'm sure the authorities did their best to hide anything away which could give a negative impression of communism to foreigners...

[CJvR]

Before Marxism Russia was one of the worlds largest grain exporters with the highest GDP growth in Europe. After the revolution and reorganizing the agriculture Russia was never able to feed it's population again without imports and rationing. The improvements and idustrialisation that were carried out was a result from a staggering amount of slavelabour in the 1930'ies and the looting of eastern Europe after WW2.

Oppressive totalitarian regimes might give you the illusion of prosperity but in reality it's more a matter of distributing poverty evenly rather than creating wealth.

China, prefering to salvage something rather than riding the plan down in flames, are currently facing the problem that a prosperous educated people are alot more difficult to controll than poor illiterate peasants.

[Setzer]

i am gay.
fuck me up the ass.

[Setzer]

i am gay.
fuck me up the ass.

Dammit. That SOB Molter always does this. I leave the computer for 5 seconds, and he types this.