Achilles class

[HappyTarget]

I see no reason to think that a Defient class could hold even a glass of water next to a large ship. It is said that the Defient class is extremely well armed for a ship of that size (in the Federation) but that doesn't automaticly translate to ship killer in a midget body.

Not automatically no, but ship killer in midget body was exactly what SFCE was aiming for when they designed her. Hence she has PPCs that are more powerful than the primary hull Type 10 phaser arrays on the pre-war Galaxies. Hence she has ablative armor. Hence she has quantum torpedoes. Hence in addition to her quad PPCs, she also has a few Type 10 phaser arrays of her own. Hence she has a tiny warp core that's as powerful if not more so than the tall one on the Galaxies. Hence, she could quite easily deal with a pre-war spec Galaxy IMHO. Just use the same tactic that Sisko used on Regent Worf's mirror uni ship.

To date, the Defient has shown;
Four forward fixed pulse phasers

Each of which has been stated as being heftier in firepower than the primary phaser arrays on a Galaxy

Two forward torpedo launchers (suppost to be one, but have seen torpedo's coming out of the pulse phaser ports *shrug* shitty writting)

No, supposed to be 2, mounted near the dual PPCs in each 'wing'. The tube on the nav deflector was for probes only. And rather than photons, they fire quantums, which are better for blowing shit up.

One dorsal and one ventral standard phaser strip

Which are the same type as those on a Galaxy. And if we go by the model itself, she could very likley have more arrays, just that we've never seen them operate in a firefight.

Supposedly one aft torpedo launcher (haven't seen it fire but....)

Aft one was used in at least DS9 "Starship Down" off the top of my head

Its defensive capabilities are good for a ship of that size too, yet I still don't think it goes into the 'supper uber' scale of indestructability.

No one said that, but she should be easily capable of hanging in a firefight as long as a Galaxy if not significantly longer. Her warp core is as powerful if not moreso than the Galaxy's which means she'll have power to spare. Her small size and nimbleness will mean she can evade fire far easier, and she has Ablative armor and very few exposed windows, something the Galaxy cannot say. And her punch is most likley BETTER than a Galaxy's. Hence with a competent captain, a stock Defiant could take out a stock Galaxy. Now the War Galaxy varients are something different IMHO, one of them could take out a stock Defiant, but would take heavy damage herself.

Yet in such a small hull, could the Defient have the power generation equipment with great enough output to power shields capable of countering the larger craft?

As stated in DS9, SHE DOES.

can the Defient withstand the power of the Galaxy weapons long enough and still have enough energy to use their weapons to over power the Galaxy's shields before yeilding to the opposite?

The same holds true for the opposite, as the Defiant's weapons fit is roughly = to the stock Galaxy's according to DS9.

Ramming deflector !?!? Tactic wise the Feds are back to the Peloponesian wars and Triremes. Perhaps they can hire Klingoffs to whip the redshirts rowing the thing.

Why not use "ram the till they give up" as a tactic given the canon ranges starships fight at? Also, it was my understanding that the ramming deflector wasn't a primary weapons system. That was her phalanx torps, PPCs and phaser arrays.

Considering what the Defiant class orginated from you'd think that just by upscaling the class they could come up with an extremely powerful warship. Certainly at some point the increase in size would provide diminishing returns but conisdering what they shoe-horned into that ship what could they really do with more space?

Make the D'deridex killer USS Prometheus!

Seriously, the proposed production version of the Prometheus class would be basically what you are describing.

I know, but why power her down soooo much when there are much weaker ships that could be used there and why not use her somewhere else?

Cuz they wanted to give each race only so many ships, and wanted them to be approximately similar in stats. Hence, while one could have replaced the Galaxy with the Defiant and slotted in another ship, then people would have been grousing that there were no Galaxy's. IIRC, in an interview, the game designers specifically stated that they dummbed down the the Defiant and pulled a lot of her teeth just so that people would use a fleet of them exclusively. It was definately a sacrifice for game balance, to keep the Defiant in-fitting with how they set up the game.

[Knife]

snip

I delt with most of that in my second post.

No one said that, but she should be easily capable of hanging in a firefight as long as a Galaxy if not significantly longer. Her warp core is as powerful if not moreso than the Galaxy's which means she'll have power to spare. Her small size and nimbleness will mean she can evade fire far easier, and she has Ablative armor and very few exposed windows, something the Galaxy cannot say. And her punch is most likley BETTER than a Galaxy's. Hence with a competent captain, a stock Defiant could take out a stock Galaxy. Now the War Galaxy varients are something different IMHO, one of them could take out a stock Defiant, but would take heavy damage herself.

Except in most of the large scale battle scenes in DS9, she doesn't far that well. Yes she survived alot, but mostly, I believe, because the Defient would be a secondary target. If she was the bad ass ship killer, then the Dominion battle bugs her own size would be cannon fodder and yet it never was shown to be that way.

Durring the battle scenes, the Defient made some good strafing runs but did not rack up horrendous kills amoung the capital ships. Her PP may be more powerful than standard phasers, but are four PP more powerful than 10 or 15 standard strips? She does not have enough emplacements to be a large threat to large scale craft.

[HappyTarget]

Except in most of the large scale battle scenes in DS9, she doesn't far that well. Yes she survived alot, but mostly, I believe, because the Defient would be a secondary target.

Odd that the Dominion would target the Defiant as a secondary ship when the KNOW it's Sisko's ship and that he's most often in command of the fleet's he was a part of. Taking out the flag is a good way to cause at least tempoary confusion amongst the enemies formation and manuvers.

If she was the bad ass ship killer, then the Dominion battle bugs her own size would be cannon fodder and yet it never was shown to be that way.

The Defiant WAS a badass ship killer. And the Jem'Hadar 'Fighters' WERE cannon fodder. Jemmie Fighters were designed for Swarm tactics (due to the quick maturation of Jem'Hadar and rapid cloneing process), not for individual maximum combat prowess.

The Defiant on the other hand was to cram as powerful weapons and defenses into the smallest hull possible.

Durring the battle scenes, the Defient made some good strafing runs but did not rack up horrendous kills amoung the capital ships.

Because she was not tasked with taking out capital ships for some strange reason. (I personally chalk it up to poor script writing) Considering how fast she chewed through the Jemmie Fighters, she seemed tasked with keeping them off the backs of the larger ships to prevent a Oddsey repeat.

Also look at the basic composition of the Dominion fleet. We have Galors, Keldons, and Jemmie Fighters making up the lions share of the enemy. Then we have the odd Jemmie Dreadnought and Battlecruisers that are much less in numbers. Now both of these are BEYOND a Defiant's capablities to take out alone (refer DS9 "The Valiant"), so since the Domion and Cardassians have ships it can munch on quite happily and ships that are to tough to take out alone, we have it chewing through Galors, Keldons and Jemmie Fighters.

Her PP may be more powerful than standard phasers, but are four PP more powerful than 10 or 15 standard strips?

They don't have to be considering how often all phasers can fire and DO fire in one direction. Galaxies seem to use the dorsal and ventral saucer phasers almost exclusively, meaning that they have 2 primary weapons foreward. Defiant has 4 of similar power output. Now if Feddie ships regularly used the max combat capablities (BOBW, everything and the kitchen sink volleys) then they likley could throw heavier individual salvos than the Defiant. But the regularly don't for some reason, hence the Defiant oftentimes has greater forward firepower than a Galaxy. At best, the Galaxy has it's photon tube and 5 phaser arrays capable of hitting forward (dorsal saucer, ventral saucer, nacelle pylons, ventral secondary hull). The likley hood of ALL of these being lined up on target at the same time is virtually nil. Now in the Defiant's case, she can line up 2 Quantum tubes and 4 PPCs that are equal to the Galaxy's main phasers. Hence, in actual practice, she can have a heavier forward arc throw weight than the stock Galaxy's

She does not have enough emplacements to be a large threat to large scale craft.

The reason for more emplacements on large scale craft is because they lack the mobility to cover off frontal axis. Hence they need weapons that cover more than straight ahead. Now NOT ALL PHASER ARCS ON CAPITAL SHIPS CAN TRAIN FORWARD, which means we have to look at them in an arc by arc basis. More phasers does not mean that a single arc throw weight is heavier than the Defiant's PPCs and Quantums forward throw weight.

[Knife]

The reason for more emplacements on large scale craft is because they lack the mobility to cover off frontal axis. Hence they need weapons that cover more than straight ahead. Now NOT ALL PHASER ARCS ON CAPITAL SHIPS CAN TRAIN FORWARD, which means we have to look at them in an arc by arc basis. More phasers does not mean that a single arc throw weight is heavier than the Defiant's PPCs and Quantums forward throw weight.

Exactly, and the weapons overlap of a large vessel like the Galaxy will ensure a realitively good amount of firepower on all arcs. No matter how nimble the Defient is, she still has to be facing the target to engage it. The larger vessels can engage in most if not all vectors.

So, unless the two ships sit face to face with no manuvering, the Galaxy should be able to bring a large or more continuous amount of firepower to bear on the Defient while the Defient must continually manuver to get its weapons to allign with the target.

So if even four PP on the Defient are more powerful than say half of the standard phasers of the Galaxy, the Galaxy can bring what? A quarter or a third if not half of that firepower to bare at any given time and location. The Defient can only give a major forward strike with some weapons in off axis attacks. Its punch is in the forward arc and must manuver to keep the target in that arc. Therefore there is chunks of time where the Defient cannot bring its weapons to bare while an almost continual assualt from the Galaxy will be eating its shields away.

[HappyTarget]

Exactly, and the weapons overlap of a large vessel like the Galaxy will ensure a realitively good amount of firepower on all arcs. No matter how nimble the Defient is, she still has to be facing the target to engage it. The larger vessels can engage in most if not all vectors.

Yes. Which is why I said best tactic in a 1 vs. 1 between a Galaxy and Defiant is to stay as close to the Galaxy as possible, just like Sisko did to Mirror Universe Regent Worf's uberNeghvar.

So, unless the two ships sit face to face with no manuvering, the Galaxy should be able to bring a large or more continuous amount of firepower to bear on the Defient while the Defient must continually manuver to get its weapons to allign with the target.

Not necessarily. Defiant also has Type 10 phaser arrays of her own for off frontal axis weapons fire. Also, if the Defiant stays close enough to the Galaxy, she can limit her exposure to phaser fire. It's why the bigger capital ships should have escorts along, to keep just such a tactic from working.

So if even four PP on the Defient are more powerful than say half of the standard phasers of the Galaxy, the Galaxy can bring what? A quarter or a third if not half of that firepower to bare at any given time and location. The Defient can only give a major forward strike with some weapons in off axis attacks. Its punch is in the forward arc and must manuver to keep the target in that arc. Therefore there is chunks of time where the Defient cannot bring its weapons to bare while an almost continual assualt from the Galaxy will be eating its shields away.

Only if the Defiant uses poor choice in tactics vs it's enemy. Manuvering at range is a bad idea for a lone Defiant vs a Galaxy, it allows the Galaxy to use her better coverage to the hilt.If the Defiant's captain was smart, he would park right between the nacelles where only a max of 4 small arrays can hit him. Then just hammer her impulse drive so she can't manuver and pick her off at your leisure. Defiant can win failry easily if she gets tucked in close. But if she tries to fight like she did vs USS Lakota, she'll likley get dead. Fighting at range against a heavier ship gives the enemy to much of an advantage.

[Crazedwraith]

Yes. Which is why I said best tactic in a 1 vs. 1 between a Galaxy and Defiant is to stay as close to the Galaxy as possible, just like Sisko did to Mirror Universe Regent Worf's uberNeghvar.

As i said before theres no proof our Defiants have those strips. Mirror "Similey" O'Brien stole the orginal plans from the DS9 computer.
In the testing phas of the defiant several problems led to the redesign had could have had thoose phaser strips removed.
When the mirror defiant faced the same problems the called in our sisko to make the repairs and he had a very short time to fixe the problems meaning he left the phaser strips wear they were.
Meaning the mirror defiant could make that close in strafing runs while ours wudn't.

[Tsyroc]

Considering what the Defiant class orginated from you'd think that just by upscaling the class they could come up with an extremely powerful warship. Certainly at some point the increase in size would provide diminishing returns but conisdering what they shoe-horned into that ship what could they really do with more space?

Or at least use the exsisting technology that was developed for the Defient and use it to build a cruiser sized vessel with the Pulse Phasers and armor system.

I sort of combined ideas there. Anyway, since the Nova class was supposedly the pathfinder vessel for what became the Defiant I figure that if they could turn a fairly weak ship, combat wise, into the Defiant what could they do with a ship that is already more combat oriented?

I only threw out the upscaling idea because I figured it might be slightly easier to implement but I'm not certain that's true.


It does seem odd that they've seen how effective the PP and the armor of the Defiant has been but they still continue to put physically unprotected nacelles on most of their starships. Sure they have sheilds but only the Steamrunner class has even the beginings of something physically protecting it's warp nacelles.

I would add that I see armor and ablative armor as two different things. To me the Defiant class generally has both in the later seasons of DS9. I can't recall if ablative armor was installed on any other ships or not.


Anyone have any idea how well pulse phasers might work if put in turrets?

[Super-Gagme]

People are debating Defiant vs Galaxy but lets look at the cost of a Defiant vs Galaxy. What is a Defiant worth? 1/6 a Galaxy? Lets be really kind and say 1/3 a Galaxy class.

So now we change the fight:
3 Defiants vs 1 Galaxy class

I think we know the better ship now

[Knife]

Anyone have any idea how well pulse phasers might work if put in turrets?

Extremely well, I would think.

[Knife]

People are debating Defiant vs Galaxy but lets look at the cost of a Defiant vs Galaxy. What is a Defiant worth? 1/6 a Galaxy? Lets be really kind and say 1/3 a Galaxy class.

So now we change the fight:
3 Defiants vs 1 Galaxy class

I think we know the better ship now

The original point is that the Defient is not the super ubber ship some would have them be. They're powerful for a ship of that size, but not a pocket battleship, IMHO.

[Death from the Sea]

People are debating Defiant vs Galaxy but lets look at the cost of a Defiant vs Galaxy. What is a Defiant worth? 1/6 a Galaxy? Lets be really kind and say 1/3 a Galaxy class.

So now we change the fight:
3 Defiants vs 1 Galaxy class

I think we know the better ship now

I don't know what they hell you are talking about, if you are talking about the cost to buy a ship in the game then those costs mean nothing. If you are talking about costs related to the cannon Trek universe it still means nothing, just because a ship costs less to make does not make it less powerful.
I think that pretty much everyone here would agree that 3 defiants would chew a single galaxy class ship up and spit it out with out taking a single casualty.

[Crazedwraith]

U know? im sure the title of this thread is the "Achilles class"
Forgive me for my short sighhtedness but how does thats tranlate to "Galaxy vs Defiant?"

[Sea Skimmer]

The thing looks far too long for its height. It increases the area that needs to be shielded and provides a big fat target.

[Death from the Sea]

U know? im sure the title of this thread is the "Achilles class"
Forgive me for my short sighhtedness but how does thats tranlate to "Galaxy vs Defiant?"

Your right, but if you would read the whole thread you would see that I mentioned how the DW game had rated the Defiant as weaker and slower than the Steamrunner when it should be more on level with the Galaxy.
Thread Hijacks happen sometimes, deal with it.
Anyway back on topic....

The thing looks far too long for its height. It increases the area that needs to be shielded and provides a big fat target.

How does that increase the area needing to be shielded? This ship has a reduced profile compared to many ships(Galaxy) the shields would have less vertical area to cover and the same horizontally as any other ship of the same length.

[HappyTarget]

The thing looks far too long for its height. It increases the area that needs to be shielded and provides a big fat target.

It's only a BIGGER target from dorsal and ventral. From port, starboard, aft and forward, she's got one of the smallest cross sections of any Feddie design. And even her dorsal and ventral profiles are smaller than some of her contempoaries. And given her port/starbord/forward weapons fit, it means she doesn't present her dorsal and ventral sides to the enemy all that often. Considering how much punishment the shields of much bulkier cross sectioned vessels can take, I'd much rather have an Achilles than most canon Trek cruisers.

[Super-Gagme]

People are debating Defiant vs Galaxy but lets look at the cost of a Defiant vs Galaxy. What is a Defiant worth? 1/6 a Galaxy? Lets be really kind and say 1/3 a Galaxy class.

So now we change the fight:
3 Defiants vs 1 Galaxy class

I think we know the better ship now

I don't know what they hell you are talking about, if you are talking about the cost to buy a ship in the game then those costs mean nothing. If you are talking about costs related to the cannon Trek universe it still means nothing, just because a ship costs less to make does not make it less powerful.
I think that pretty much everyone here would agree that 3 defiants would chew a single galaxy class ship up and spit it out with out taking a single casualty.

Hmm someones taken the stupid pills. I am pointing out the defiant is cheaper to build for the federation and is almost (or maybe even equal) a GCS. I also point out that assume its 1/3 the cost of a GCS so that means 3 defiants we know would own the GCS thus DEFIANT is a better ship. When I said I think we all know the better ship I meant the Defiant. I'm sure other people got that, but not you...