Phasers on Stun, "Wide Field"

[Master of Ossus]

If I had photos I would show them. I suppose you think its easy finding screencaps of such particular incidents? But you asked, so I will try to find some.

It will probably be made harder by the fact they don't exist. Just look up one episode (ie. The Siege of AR558) and look for screencaps of the "pop-up, duck-down" fight that they had. You'll see that their weapons aren't doing any kind of structural damage to the crates that everyone's hiding behind.

Whats with the aggression?

I suppose its possible that the arrows hit in the rubber areas, but from what I remember from RotJ, it didnt look that way.

In all of RotJ I can spot only two stormtroopers that fall down after being hit with arrows. One of them doesn't appear to be dead, he just looked like he was diving for cover. The other one was hit in the body-glove with an arrow. There is at least one other clear instance of an arrow bouncing off of stormtrooper armor (note that my good friend, DarkStar, went through a long diatribe about how that arrow was less massive than one that allegedly killed the stormtrooper that I mentioned earlier as he was diving for cover, and therefore it might have bounced off while the previous one didn't).

Why is it you assume i'm not willing to abmit the ANH scene? I am, I never said I wouldnt.

Because you seem to have no appreciation of how much more powerful observed blaster fire is than phaser fire. Take ST:Nemesis, for example. In the film, Captain Picard sealed a blast-door behind him, and a group of Reman soldiers spent some time opening fire on the door in an effort to punch through it. I would characterize the size of the craters their weapons were leaving in the door as the size of walnuts, even though this represented a substantial increase in the amount of damage over their previous errant shots that hit the walls of the Scimitar. To me, this indicates an increased power, and would presumably be a maximum power. Blaster fire in ANH blasted large chunks of a concrete-like material from the walls of a docking bay. In ESB, weapons fire from stormtrooper rifles left softball sized craters in solid metal walls. That represents MUCH more power than the previously mentioned Reman weapons, which seemed comparable to phasers in all respects (in fact, they seemed much better than phasers in the film).

Cracking? I believe I saw a screencap somewhere of a crack in their armour during the Endor battle, I'll try to find it.

There is one cracked shoulder guard, but there's no indication of when it was broken or how. It's already broken when the stormtrooper comes onto camera.

If I recall correctly, something about wide kill shots was mentioned in 'Worst Case Scenario'. And if you can calculate that, I'm sure you could do the same with the stun wide field demonstrated in 'Cathexis'.

The "Cathexis" shot was a stun shot. What does that have to do with anything?

If "wide-angle kill" actually exists, why wasn't it used on the closely packed Reman troops in ST:Nemesis? SF personnel knew where the Remans were coming from. They knew the width of the corridors, and could have easily figured out the range to the Reman troops as they rounded a corner (or somesuch) by their knowledge of the layout of the ship. Why didn't they have Riker set his hand phaser to "wide-angle kill" and destroy the boarding party in one fell swoop?

After all, I'm apparently not bright enough to do the math am i? Don't make insulting comments about my education when you know nothing of it.

He knows that you either didn't see a MASSIVE decrease in intensity as a problem, or that you didn't bother to do even rough calculations to determine what the loss in intensity would be.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I don't think that it's a particularly good strategy to base one's entire attack around the theory that you can close to within 1 meter of your enemy across open ground without suppression fire or cover of any kind.

It's par for the course for Trek "warriors," though.

Considering the notoriously slow rate of fire, demonstrated short ranges, and questionable accuracy of Trek small arms, it's also just barely sustainable if the attacker is willing to accept the excessive losses, as Klingons and Jem'hadar appear inclined to do.

[Striderteen]

Are there any other examples? I have some pics of the TOS episode, but nowhere to upload them at the minute....

TOS "Wink of an Eye" has some use of phasers on wide beam both on stun and kill, I believe.

I suspect that almost all phaser settings are compatable with wide beam settings, such as vaporize, heat and such. The likely problem of such usage would be high energy drains, and not very practical if you want many shots against numerous enemies (say during a war or heavy conflict). But it would make for a good impression against an enemy. I think a group of Storm Troopers might flinch if a single Ensign vaped or at least killed a group of ten Troopers close together. Might make them wonder just how many times he can do that.

He wouldn't be that surprised; wide-field blaster weapons like the BlasTech DL-87 and the Merr-Sonn "Deck Sweeper" are quite popular with pirates.

[Darth Wong]

If there's a tight cluster of enemy troops, an automatic weapon which strikes repeatedly with full intensity would be a much better choice than a single-shot weapon which strikes once with watered-down intensity.

[The Silence and I]

Thanks for the logic lession Wong, but that really isn't the point of this thread (ST =! logic)

Besides, IF an ensign can do that, it WOULD be more impressive/intimidating than if he simply mowed them down with rapid firing.

[TurboPhaser]

It will probably be made harder by the fact they don't exist. Just look up one episode (ie. The Siege of AR558) and look for screencaps of the "pop-up, duck-down" fight that they had. You'll see that their weapons aren't doing any kind of structural damage to the crates that everyone's hiding behind.

They do exist, I just cant find them. 'Melted barrel pictures of Star Trek' Websites are not easy to come by.

Because you seem to have no appreciation of how much more powerful observed blaster fire is than phaser fire. Take ST:Nemesis, for example. In the film, Captain Picard sealed a blast-door behind him, and a group of Reman soldiers spent some time opening fire on the door in an effort to punch through it. I would characterize the size of the craters their weapons were leaving in the door as the size of walnuts, even though this represented a substantial increase in the amount of damage over their previous errant shots that hit the walls of the Scimitar. To me, this indicates an increased power, and would presumably be a maximum power. Blaster fire in ANH blasted large chunks of a concrete-like material from the walls of a docking bay. In ESB, weapons fire from stormtrooper rifles left softball sized craters in solid metal walls. That represents MUCH more power than the previously mentioned Reman weapons, which seemed comparable to phasers in all respects (in fact, they seemed much better than phasers in the film).

Yes, I do have an appreciation. I just feel that Trek is sometimes mis-represented in these cases.

And note that the landing bay in ANH was made of concrete which is substantially weaker than metal. I'm not sure but I think the composition of the shuttle bay doors in Nemesis was mentioned, can anyone confirm this? For all we know, that shuttle bay door could have been pure neutronium, so the Reman weapons would have been doing a good job in that case.

Softball sized dents in solid metal walls, yes thats impressive.

The "Cathexis" shot was a stun shot. What does that have to do with anything?

If "wide-angle kill" actually exists, why wasn't it used on the closely packed Reman troops in ST:Nemesis? SF personnel knew where the Remans were coming from. They knew the width of the corridors, and could have easily figured out the range to the Reman troops as they rounded a corner (or somesuch) by their knowledge of the layout of the ship. Why didn't they have Riker set his hand phaser to "wide-angle kill" and destroy the boarding party in one fell swoop?

Yes it does have something to do with this, because it is one of very few examples of wide beam effects.

Don't ask me, I have little imagination. I'm sure someone has a reason why they didnt.

He knows that you either didn't see a MASSIVE decrease in intensity as a problem, or that you didn't bother to do even rough calculations to determine what the loss in intensity would be.

Well, one error does not indicate that I have no mathematical ability.

And another thing, why are most people assuming that a wide beam phaser kill shot would be cone - shaped? Is there a reason that if a wide kill beam could be generated it coudlnt be in a horizontal beam like in Cathexis?

[Master of Ossus]

They do exist, I just cant find them. 'Melted barrel pictures of Star Trek' Websites are not easy to come by.

Do you remember the name of the episode? Do you remember the series of the episode? Do you remember what was going on in the episode?

Yes, I do have an appreciation. I just feel that Trek is sometimes mis-represented in these cases.

And note that the landing bay in ANH was made of concrete which is substantially weaker than metal.

Seeing as how that "concrete" was designed to hold up to repeated lift-off and landing of large freighters I can't say I'm too impressed with your evidence, thus far.

I'm not sure but I think the composition of the shuttle bay doors in Nemesis was mentioned, can anyone confirm this?

I don't recall it being named. It might have been.

For all we know, that shuttle bay door could have been pure neutronium, so the Reman weapons would have been doing a good job in that case.

1. Appeal to ignorance fallacy.
2. If the door was solid neutronium, how come the same type of Reman disruptors did NO structural damage to the presumably weaker corridors on the Enterprise, later in the film? Sometimes they didn't even scorch the stuff.

Yes it does have something to do with this, because it is one of very few examples of wide beam effects.

But we're debating wide-angle kill shots, which have never been observed.

Don't ask me, I have little imagination. I'm sure someone has a reason why they didnt.

Like what? Power? Riker had other weapons at hand, for use after the attack in case he missed.

Danger to the ship? The weapons they were shooting off didn't even have enough power to scorch the hallway, at times. A wide-angle kill shot at the same intensity shouldn't do anything more. Riker could have also done it so as to avoid firing near critical systems.

And another thing, why are most people assuming that a wide beam phaser kill shot would be cone - shaped? Is there a reason that if a wide kill beam could be generated it coudlnt be in a horizontal beam like in Cathexis?

I guess that it could be, but the drop-off in intensity would still be a huge problem.

[Death from the Sea]

It will probably be made harder by the fact they don't exist. Just look up one episode (ie. The Siege of AR558) and look for screencaps of the "pop-up, duck-down" fight that they had. You'll see that their weapons aren't doing any kind of structural damage to the crates that everyone's hiding behind.

They do exist, I just cant find them. 'Melted barrel pictures of Star Trek' Websites are not easy to come by.

It is not a melted barrel but in Enterprise episode "Shadows of P`Jem" a phaser burns through the wall of the building that Archer and T'Pol are held captive in and hits the person that was about to untie them. Granted the walls of the she appeared to made of tin, but it is something.

[Ted C]

Seeing as how that "concrete" was designed to hold up to repeated lift-off and landing of large freighters I can't say I'm too impressed with your evidence, thus far.

In his defense, SW ships usually take of using repulsorlift power, so the landing bay walls need not be composed of exceptionally resilient materials.

[Robert Walper]

My opinion is that phasers are capable of being set to "wide field" with virtually all settings available(ie: vaporize, heating, etc). The problem is the enormously increased energy cost of such settings. As Mr. Wong has put forth, such settings, while perhaps feasible, aren't going to be practical if they are only "a couple of shots" deal. What would you rather have, two hundred single beam shots, or two wide beam shots? I'd pick the latter unless the situation makes for the other setting more effective.

[Howedar]

In ESB, weapons fire from stormtrooper rifles left softball sized craters in solid metal walls.

If you're talking about the holes in the walls of Bespin, that material appeared to me to be no more than a think drywall-like material.

[Master of Ossus]

Seeing as how that "concrete" was designed to hold up to repeated lift-off and landing of large freighters I can't say I'm too impressed with your evidence, thus far.

In his defense, SW ships usually take of using repulsorlift power, so the landing bay walls need not be composed of exceptionally resilient materials.

They would have to be capable of withstanding the actual sublight engine drives, in an emergency. That's why the DS had blast doors and such around its hangar.

[The Silence and I]

TurboPhaser wrote:
They do exist, I just cant find them. 'Melted barrel pictures of Star Trek' Websites are not easy to come by.


Do you remember the name of the episode? Do you remember the series of the episode? Do you remember what was going on in the episode?

In the TOS episode "The Omega Glory" Captain Tracey's phaser vaporizes a wooden rain-barrel, several people and this thing:


A substantial part of which is metal... Power settings + intelligence of the user = why cargo crates are good enough cover.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Quote:
Yes, I do have an appreciation. I just feel that Trek is sometimes mis-represented in these cases.

And note that the landing bay in ANH was made of concrete which is substantially weaker than metal.


Seeing as how that "concrete" was designed to hold up to repeated lift-off and landing of large freighters I can't say I'm too impressed with your evidence, thus far.

A) Repulsor equipped craft are the norm, so it would not need to stand up to frequent heat exposure, and considering the run-down look of the place, top-notch equipment is not likely.
B) Ok, lets say it's heat resistant. Whoop-de-do. It still acts like concrete. Now, take a blaster bolt: It hits and the concentrated heat burns a hole into the material. The bolt will have to vaporize plenty of material to do this, and if there is only a small opening for the gas to escape to.
If the material is like metal the escaping gasses will only widen the entry hole. If it more like concrete (however heat-resistant) it will act more like a firecracker allowed to set in a pan of plaster of paris before detonating . There will be lots of flame, and large chunks will be blown out of the wall. Much like on-screen evidence:

That is still impressive, but the blaster does not have to defeat as much heat-resistant material to do that to something with concrete-like tensile strength+shock resistence. In other words, the 'concrete' may be heat resistant, but it will still shatter easily if a large amount of heated gas is formed under the surface. Does this make sense

Quote:
For all we know, that shuttle bay door could have been pure neutronium, so the Reman weapons would have been doing a good job in that case.


1. Appeal to ignorance fallacy.
2. If the door was solid neutronium, how come the same type of Reman disruptors did NO structural damage to the presumably weaker corridors on the Enterprise, later in the film? Sometimes they didn't even scorch the stuff.

I believe I posted some pictures earlier on this thread showing just what you descibe. At normal fire-fighting levels phasers left no mark on this very door, the E-E bulkheads, or the Scimitar's bulkheads. It was only when power levels were increased that marks were left behind. So while it is highly unlikely, that door *could* have been neutronium, based on observed damage.

Howedar wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:
In ESB, weapons fire from stormtrooper rifles left softball sized craters in solid metal walls.
If you're talking about the holes in the walls of Bespin, that material appeared to me to be no more than a think drywall-like material.

Yeah, that was more like dry-wall. The 'metal' should have been visibly hot, and where was the shrapnel? If you blow a hole that large into a metal wall, you ought to have lots of shrapnel. I really don't think Luke would have been too happy if those were really metal walls: He hid behind them on several occasions while the holes were being made... he should have been cooked alive, shot full of shrapnel, and blown clear arcoss the room from the clouds of--err, um, invisible! yeah that's it,--expanding gasses. Clearly this didn't happen. It wasn't metal.

[Soulman]

In all of RotJ I can spot only two stormtroopers that fall down after being hit with arrows. One of them doesn't appear to be dead, he just looked like he was diving for cover. The other one was hit in the body-glove with an arrow. There is at least one other clear instance of an arrow bouncing off of stormtrooper armor (note that my good friend, DarkStar, went through a long diatribe about how that arrow was less massive than one that allegedly killed the stormtrooper that I mentioned earlier as he was diving for cover, and therefore it might have bounced off while the previous one didn't).

If one of the uber-crap arrows the Ewoks were using could penetrate the body-glove a heavy-stun (or low-end kill) wide field shot may be able to disable a Stormtrooper because it would hit the body glove as well as the armour. Mind, we don't know the body glove's effectiveness against energy weapons, I think that it probably wouldn't work as I feel that the glove is probably quite effective against energy weapons at the expense of KE protection (afterall the Stormies would otherwise be pretty immobile).