Use of lethal force to defend your home.

[Zoink]

Are you sure that the 'demonstrate force' = 'shoot them in the legs'? Or is demonstrate force = to warning shot that is fired into the air?

I read this while reading up on the Palestinian conflict, it was a statement from their defense minister or something (it was a while ago).

The three steps the I.D.F. soldiers are supposed to take are:

(1) Fire weapons (not at anyone)
(2) Fire using less-than-lethal force if possible
(3) Fire to kill

I suppose step two includes rubber bullets, but they can be fatal if it hits the head. I recall them stating that step 2 includes shooting someone in the leg.

[Perinquus]

They psychological factor can also turn against me. One of their pals has just
been killed by me - the rest wants to avenge him here and now. No the risk isn't worth it.

This is what good tactics are for. Use cover and concealment, and don't give them a good shot at you. And when they see their buddies dropping to the ground dead or wounded, and their return fire is having little or no effect, you think they're going to stick around? In this scenario, remember, they are committing a crime. Presumably you are going to have summoned the police, who will come hell for leather when you explain to the dispatcher that you are exchanging fire with this mob. They are not going to stick around and wait for the cops to arrive. If they can't achieve their objective of burning you out quickly, they can't risk staying put to keep trying. To preserve my home, and maybe my family, the risk is worth it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'd step outside to warn them, but my warning would be firing over their heads.

[Knife]

Are you sure that the 'demonstrate force' = 'shoot them in the legs'? Or is demonstrate force = to warning shot that is fired into the air?

I read this while reading up on the Palestinian conflict, it was a statement from their defense minister or something (it was a while ago).

The three steps the I.D.F. soldiers are supposed to take are:

(1) Fire weapons (not at anyone)
(2) Fire using less-than-lethal force if possible
(3) Fire to kill

I suppose step two includes rubber bullets, but they can be fatal if it hits the head. I recall them stating that step 2 includes shooting someone in the leg.

1) sounds about right.
2) probably refers to riot or crowd control. Using buttstrokes and/or non lethal weapons or techniques. Again, shooting someone in the leg has the potential of killing him/her.
3) Ah, the top of the escalation of force ladder.

[Thunderfire]

This is what good tactics are for. Use cover and concealment, and don't give them a good shot at you.

I can only defend one side of the house. They can easily surround the house
and throw some molotov cocktails through the windows. The police also takes
30 minutes to reach my house. No I still think that fleeing is the by far the
best option in this scenario.

[Perinquus]

This is what good tactics are for. Use cover and concealment, and don't give them a good shot at you.

I can only defend one side of the house. They can easily surround the house
and throw some molotov cocktails through the windows. The police also takes
30 minutes to reach my house. No I still think that fleeing is the by far the
best option in this scenario.

If they are surrounding the house, how are you going to get past them? If I'm going to get shot no matter what, I would rather be shot fighting than running away. At least one way, I have a chance at driving them off.

And I realize the scenario doesn't say they are out to kill you, but if they are willing to burn your house down, what are the odds that they are willing to let you past them without you at least being beaten to a bloody pulp? Hate filled mobs charged up with adrenaline and psyched up to commit violent felonies are not known for their restraint. I certainly would not put myself at their mercy. No, I think that fleeing is not the best option in this scenario.

[SPOOFE]

I see that they have gasoline. I see that they have torches. I hear them shouting to burn me and my home to the ground.

Fuckers die.

None of this "aim to disable" stuff. That's just pure insanity, thought up by a suit behind a desk that, if threatened, can get a dozen bodyguards to do the dirty work for him. No, I aim for the center of mass. It's my right, as any other decision would most likely end in my death, when faced with such a situation.

Fire warning shots? Works great in the movies, doesn't it? In real life, firing a few shots in the air would, most likely, provoke the crowd MORE, and be MORE likely to result in your death.

[Thunderfire]

If they are surrounding the house, how are you going to get past them?

I flee before this happens. I will shoot any attacker who tries to stop me.

You can, however, make it to your car and safely flee.

This is the relevant section of the scenario.

[Darth Wong]

This is what good tactics are for. Use cover and concealment, and don't give them a good shot at you. And when they see their buddies dropping to the ground dead or wounded, and their return fire is having little or no effect, you think they're going to stick around? In this scenario, remember, they are committing a crime. Presumably you are going to have summoned the police, who will come hell for leather when you explain to the dispatcher that you are exchanging fire with this mob. They are not going to stick around and wait for the cops to arrive. If they can't achieve their objective of burning you out quickly, they can't risk staying put to keep trying. To preserve my home, and maybe my family, the risk is worth it.

According to the scenario, you WILL make it out safely if you run. Therefore, you are trading a 100% guarantee of safety for a a calculated risk of death for both you and your family, simply for the sake of your physical house and its contents.

[MKSheppard]

According to the scenario, you WILL make it out safely if you run. Therefore, you are trading a 100% guarantee of safety for a a calculated risk of death for both you and your family, simply for the sake of your physical house and its contents.

Hmm 90 rounds of 5.56mm in 3 x 30 rd magazines, you're under cover
in your house, you know the layout of the land, and they have no weapons
other than pitchforks, lol this is like a Borg vs Modern infantry platoon

And now the debate has really become a gun control debate with me in it

[Iceberg]

Because I am not the one initiating force, nor violating anyone's rights.

You are initiating force, since the burglar has not used force on you at this point, and you're violating his right to live.

He forfeited his right to live when he broke into my home.

The law in my state is very explicit: There is no obligation to retreat from one's own home, and an unlawful home entry is AUTOMATICALLY an escalation to deadly force.

Once a threat is presented it is my judgement which determines the appropriate use of defensive force in response. Once a person is inside my home, he presents a great risk.

Your judgement is severely flawed.[/quote]
The law authorizes deadly force against a home intruder.

[Thunderfire]

Hmm 90 rounds of 5.56mm in 3 x 30 rd magazines, you're under cover
in your house, you know the layout of the land, and they have no weapons
other than pitchforks, lol this is like a Borg vs Modern infantry platoon

No it is like a lone soldier in a trench vs 10 soldiers armed with grenades &
flamethrowers. The things get ugly for the soldier in the trench when the
10 soldiers outside are getting into throwing range. Most houses I know will
start burning pretty quick if you throw some torches and/or molotov cocktails
trough the windows.

[jegs2]

Wyatt Earp had a system that worked well for him. When confronted by a hostile crowd, he would single out one individual in the crowd and tell them to order the crowd to dispurse. If the individual refused, Earp would shoot him dead and then identify another individual. By identifying and endangering a single individual within the mob, Earp eliminated the "mob mentality," that seemed to offer both anoniminity and protection to the mob, shifting responsibility for control of the mob to a single individual -- usually the one who appeared to be leading the mob. His tactic reportedly never failed, and he did not have to kill many men in such situations.

[Perinquus]

According to the scenario, you WILL make it out safely if you run. Therefore, you are trading a 100% guarantee of safety for a a calculated risk of death for both you and your family, simply for the sake of your physical house and its contents.

Okay, my mistake. That is the scenario. But I still have to say, the scenario is very artificial and unrealistic in that regard. I have actually had to deal with some ugly crowds in the course of of my job, and on a least one occasion, my fellow officers and I had to douse them liberally with pepper spray and start swinging our batons.

Any mob that works itself up to burning your house down is a pretty inflamed crowd (no pun intended). They've psyched themselves up to commit a serious felony (arson), and they're doing it because they are filled with anger or hate towards you. Believe me when I tell you they are simply not going to let you by (and Thunderfire, to whom I was responding, specified they would surround the house). Rather, you could expect to hear: "There he is! GET HIM!!!" as you try to slip away. The next thing you know, you are running for your life. And if they catch you, you may escape with a bad beating if you are lucky. You might end up crippled. You might end up dead, because once termpers get to that point, and you are surrounded by a violent crowd that starts beating you, things can easily get out of hand.

So while I grant you, the scenario specifies you can escape, it is artificial in that regard. It's also important to remember, that if anything like this were actually going to happen to you, you would have absolutely no way of knowing beforehand that there was a guaranteed avenue of escape, even if there was one. You would then have to presume the worst, and act as if not only your property, but also your life was being threatened.

[Perinquus]

If they are surrounding the house, how are you going to get past them?

I flee before this happens. I will shoot any attacker who tries to stop me.

Ah, so they haven't surrounded the house then. You assume they will behave like trained infantry, and then press the attack and surround the house once you open fire. This is very unlikely. This is a mob. A rabble. They are not trained to act or think as a team, and they won't behave like one. This is not a military operation they planned out in advance and rehearsed on a training field. This is a group of individuals who have banded together out of anger and hate, and they will still be acting like individuals, i.e. thinking of themselves first and foremost. When they see the men in front drop dead, they are not likely to go into attack mode; they'll go into "oh shit!" mode and start running.

Also, trying to look at this kind of situation a little more realistically, how likely is it that you would see them coming in advance? Think about when you are at home. How aware are you of what is going on immediately outside your house? Would you know it if there were a mob coming to burn you out? If you are like most people, I suspect the first inkling you would have is when the first bricks start coming through your window, at which point, safe escape is not really an option. Yes, yes, I know the scenario specifies that you can get away, but as I just told Mike, that strike me as contrived and unrealistic. If you're going to think ahead about dangerous confrontations, even ones that are as unlikely ever to happen to you as this, you are really better off planning for them realistically.

[MKSheppard]

No it is like a lone soldier in a trench vs 10 soldiers armed with grenades &
flamethrowers. The things get ugly for the soldier in the trench when the
10 soldiers outside are getting into throwing range. Most houses I know will
start burning pretty quick if you throw some torches and/or molotov cocktails
trough the windows.

Sure, and these guys have the throwing arms of X-COM agents

Even a PISTOL outranges how far you can throw a unweildy object like a
molotov...much less a rifle...

[Sporkzen]

A house is replaceable.. human lives arent.. plus if they trash my house its insured i'd just buy another

[The Question]

Because I am not the one initiating force, nor violating anyone's rights.

You are initiating force, since the burglar has not used force on you at this point, and you're violating his right to live.

He forfeited his right to live when he broke into my home.

Exactly.

Call it a rather complicated form of suicide.

[Andras]

Shoot all the gas cans, Then shoot a torchbearer, <fwoomph>

[YT300000]

I'd kill the little cunts.

[Thunderfire]

Sure, and these guys have the throwing arms of X-COM agents

Even a PISTOL outranges how far you can throw a unweildy object like a
molotov...much less a rifle...

The enounter distance in less than 100 yards in this scenario if you are
going to fight. You aren't going to stop them from burnig your house
if they really want to do it. All they have to do is to spread out. Some
of them will be soon out of you line of sight.

[Thunderfire]

If you are like most people, I suspect the first inkling you would have is when the first bricks start coming through your window, at which point, safe escape is not really an option.

And defense is no longer an option at that range. Brick range = molotov cocktail
range. Many contents in a typical house will generate alot of poisonous smoke
if they start to burn.

[Perinquus]

If you are like most people, I suspect the first inkling you would have is when the first bricks start coming through your window, at which point, safe escape is not really an option.

And defense is no longer an option at that range. Brick range = molotov cocktail
range. Many contents in a typical house will generate alot of poisonous smoke
if they start to burn.

God almighty! So you just give up?

"Oh well, the house is surrounded. They Got me! Darn!"

If they've snuck up on you, and surrounded the house already, and it's most likely too late to flee without getting your ass beat - at the least. (And I remind you, this whole idea of having a guaranteed way out is contrived nonsense; there's no way you could possibly know that beforehand.) Then you might as well fight back. Defense is NEVER no longer an option! Jesus H. Christ! You don't ever give up. When you are faced with potentially deadly force, you don't ever quit. If you quit, you die. You retreat if you have to. But you never give up. And if it's already too late to retreat...

I have to say guy, I am just stunned at this kind of attitude. The willingness just to pack it in before you've even tried... I really don't know what to say. If they've already gotten close enough to surround the house, then you just plain fucking don't consider defense to be "no longer an option", you fight back as hard as you possibly can. You shoot the motherfucker lighting up that molotov cocktail. If another one tries to throw another firebomb, you shoot him too. If they still get you, well, then they get you; at least you went down swinging. But you might just drive them off. When you're dealing with a rabble, it's amazing how they can lose heart after a couple of them have been dealt with.

[SPOOFE]

According to the scenario, you WILL make it out safely if you run.

You're right, I missed that. All right, in this Magical Fairy-Land, I use the Magic Teleportation Device to place myself at a safe, secure distance without firing a shot.

This, of course, is in stark contrast to Reality, where the fuckers are still dead and my house is still intact.

[Thunderfire]

God almighty! So you just give up?

"Oh well, the house is surrounded. They Got me! Darn!"

If they've snuck up on you, and surrounded the house already, and it's most likely too late to flee without getting your ass beat - at the least. (And I remind you, this whole idea of having a guaranteed way out is contrived nonsense; there's no way you could possibly know that beforehand.) Then you might as well fight back. Defense is NEVER no longer an option! Jesus H. Christ! You don't ever give up. When you are faced with potentially deadly force, you don't ever quit. If you quit, you die. You retreat if you have to. But you never give up. And if it's already too late to retreat...

A fighting retreat is still an option. Staying in a already burning house is a sure
way to die. Your house becomes a nice death trap if someone manages to set
it afire. You will die if you stay to fight. Your only chance is to flee your house and
shoot any attacker who gets in your way. This scenario is very flawed - you can
only save your house if you are able to ambush them atleast several hundred
meters before your house. The distance in the original or worse in your scenario
is a way to close.