USS Defiant vs USS Enterprise-D

[Alyeska]

http://www.shiporama.org/images/prometh ... heus46.jpg
Bottom phaser array

[HappyTarget]

^ Looks like the Defiant's tac officer or captain needed to look like he was contributing, so he shot against an already blowing up D'deridex!

[TheDarkling]

It has been a long time since I saw the episode and I don't remember the name of the episode, but IIRC it is stated in the same conversation that Kira says the pulse phaser canons are more powerful than a galaxy class ships phasers. If anyone can remember the name of that episode please speak up.

The only episode I can remember that contains talk about the phaser power is "The Defiant" where it is stated running the plasma conduit through the phasers doubles their power.

[Knife]

Ok, a stock Galaxy class v stock Defient class; first off what subclass are we talking about here? The Enterprise subclass or the Odyssey subclass, no I am not thinking of the War Galaxy but the Odyssey seemed to have aditional phaser strips on the warp nacells. Second, only the USS Defient seems to have the cloak and the three other examples of the class has yet to demostrate the ability so the cloak is out. Thrid, everyone says that the Pulse Phaser Cannons are more powerful than the standard phaser, but how much more? Hard numbers seem to elude me on the situation. Twice as powerful? A 50% increase in power? What?


Lets assume that the two go at it in a TWoK senerio. A rogue Defient drops out of warp in a system where a Galaxy class ship is. The Defient closes with the Galaxy and no one thinks differently cause we are one big happy fleet.

At decent range, boom, the game is on.

Now I count 9 phaser strips on the Enterprise subclass of the Galaxy (I have heard 10 but can't seem to find that elusive strip). According to Mike's site, standard phasers seem to have 7 megatons of firepower per second against shields and a scant 1 kiloton per second against armor. Depending on the angle of attack, the Galaxy can bring to bear at least two weapons strips.

The Defient has four forward PPC's that are fixed and can only fire in the forward arc. It also, probably, has a dorsal and ventral phaser strip that is equal to the Galaxy class weapons.

The Galaxy has a forward and aft torpedo tube that can burst fire some where around 6-8 torpedos (TM states that 10 can be loaded at once and fired in burst, but I have never seen it and we all know how reliable the TM is). These are photon torpedos as I have never seen the Galaxy fire Quantum torpedos though it would be concievable that after the Dominion War, SF would upgrade all their weapons to the newer better shit.

The Defient has two Quantum Torpedo launcher on the port and starboard hulls repspectfully, just forward of the nacells. It also has a universal probe/torpedo launcher in the bow of the ship and reportedly one in the aft quarter. Correct me if I am wrong, but I only recall an ability of a rapid fire of three Q-torps from each launcher with an unknown reload rate and the standard launcher in the nose has fired only single shots with unknown reload rate.

Now the total power out put of both vessels is somewhere in the 4 billion GW area with the Defient being a little above that as stated on DS9. Federation shields are around 3311 GW peak, according to Mikes site. So the question boils down to; can, with manuvering, either the Galaxy or the Defient bring enough weapons to bare to hammer down the shields of the opponent and destroy the ship.

So lets say that the Galaxy can bring two phaser strips to bare at any given time (probably more depending on the firing arc, but lets use just two for now). That is 14 megatons per second or 7.2 GW's representing both strips, firing on the Defients 3311 GW shields. Every blast by the two strips will do a .68 percent damage on the shields (usually the shields damage is represented in the dialouge in %) with around 130 or 140 strikes to collapse the shield and not counting the ability of the shield to come back to 100% with additional energy. Also it must be noticed that the effects are per second and by watching the show, they seem to fire for about 3 to 5 seconds. Each 3 second shot would represent 21.6 MT's

I think I would be fair to say that the PPC may be 50% more powerful than the standard phaser (probably too high, but....) so four PPC's would represent 21.6 GW's per volley or 42 megatons on the Galaxys 3311GW shields. Each volley does 1.5% (give or take) on the shields with close to 100 volleys to bring down the shields.

Now so far it looks like the Defient is on top, but remember that the PPC's are fixed weapons in the front arc of the Defient. They can only fire on the Galaxy when they are facing it and to sit still on a battlefield is death. The firepower of the Galaxy goes up by a factor of four due that (more or less due to the actual manuvering envolved) it can fire on the Defient in all four arcs while the superior weapons of the Defient can only fire in one arc.

Torpedos, well I don't know the actual stock of torpedos on each ship so alot will have to due with available warheads to fire. Any way, the Galaxy can burst fire around 8 torpedos. At 32 megatons (actually hitting the target) per warhead and times by 8, we get a total of 256 megatons on target. While the rapid fire of the Defient will deliever 6 in a rapid fire burst, Q-torps. At 64 megatons per torpedo, you get 384 megatons on target.

Again it seems that the Defient is on top, but again remember that the aft arc of the Galaxy has a simular torpedo launcher as the front and the Defient supposedly has a standard launcher in the ass end but not a Q-torp launcher.

So there is the basics, now lets say for shits and giggles that the two do a straffing run on each other. They start face to face and pass each other on the sides.

Galaxy;
Fires off burst of 8 PT with a combined effect of 256 MT's
Fires two forward Phasers for 3 seconds for 42 MT's of damage.
Fires off two port or starboard phasers as they pass each other for 3 secs for another 42 MT's
Fires off two phasers after they pass each other for 3 sec for another 42 MT's.
Aft torpedos fire burst of 8 PT for 256 MT's

Total weapons damage is....638 MegaTons.

Defient;
Fires off rapid fire volley of 6 QT's with a combined effect of 384 MT's
Fires off volley of PPC's for 42 MT's
Passes the Galaxy and fires phaser strip of 3 sec for 21 MT's
Fires off one PT from aft launcher for 32 MT's

Total......479 Mega Tons of damage.

Now, some would say that the Defient would get more than one volley off before the passing the Galaxy. So add 42 MT's per volley.

One extra volley increases total damage to 521 MT's
Two extra volleys increases total damage to 563 MT's
Three extra volleys increases the total damage to 605 MT's
Four extra volleys increases the damage to 647 MT's

So if the Defient could get four volleys off plus the rest of the weapons, then it would exceed the Galaxys weapons damage.

On the minus side for the Galaxy, the total damage of the weapons would primarily be on one shield area while the Galaxys would be spread out over the entire shield system of the Defient. However, the Galaxy would continue to have the entire shield system eaten away while the Defient would have to manuver to reengage the Galaxy at its weakened shield or strike another area.

I don't think that the Defient can win. Both ships would get damaged, but I don't think the Defient can win. It is out gunned. While powerful, it is not as powerful as top of the line cruisers. It is some what close, but in the end, it is doomed.

[Alyeska]

Ok, a stock Galaxy class v stock Defient class; first off what subclass are we talking about here? The Enterprise subclass or the Odyssey subclass, no I am not thinking of the War Galaxy but the Odyssey seemed to have aditional phaser strips on the warp nacells.

Incorrect. The Enterprise and Odyssey are of the same stock. The Venture has the added phaser arrays and is also a War Galaxy.

There are two basic versions of the Galaxy class. The first flight and the War Galaxy which all surviving first flight models were upgraded to. Additional upgrades to the War Galaxy include expanded shuttle bays, armored/strengthened spine, and additional weapons (as evident by the Venture)

[Death from the Sea]

Ok, a stock Galaxy class v stock Defient class; first off what subclass are we talking about here? The Enterprise subclass or the Odyssey subclass, no I am not thinking of the War Galaxy but the Odyssey seemed to have aditional phaser strips on the warp nacells.

Incorrect. The Enterprise and Odyssey are of the same stock. The Venture has the added phaser arrays and is also a War Galaxy.

There are two basic versions of the Galaxy class. The first flight and the War Galaxy which all surviving first flight models were upgraded to. Additional upgrades to the War Galaxy include expanded shuttle bays, armored/strengthened spine, and additional weapons (as evident by the Venture)

Alyeska isn't there three versions of the Galaxy class? The first flight, the refit version after the first borg incursion and the War Galaxy. It was in the refit the Ent-D recieved during repairs after the battle with the Borg it received the two phaser strips on the nacelles.

[Alyeska]

No

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I don't understand why this is even a topic for debate (serious or otherwise).

Obviously, the smaller target profile of the Defiant makes it much harder to hit (IIRC, on at least one occasion, Worf had to aim manually, and we've seen plenty of evidence that GCS targeting computers are hopelessly inadequate more often than they're effective).

Additionally, Defiant's quad PPCs would make short work of a first-run Galaxy's shields, at which point they could tag a warp nacelle and kiss the Enterprise goodbye.

EDIT: And of course it's just now that I get to the part about different varieties (?!) of GCS? When did this happen? I haven't been digging into Trek deeply, obviously.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Now I count 9 phaser strips on the Enterprise subclass of the Galaxy (I have heard 10 but can't seem to find that elusive strip).

It's on the front of the "Cobra Head" formed by the top of the dorsal neck when the saucer section is removed.

[Alyeska]

FYI, there is no Enterprise sub class or any of that crap. There is the Galaxy class and the War Galaxy upgrade. Both have 12 phaser arrays with 11 of them exposed. The Venture modifcation of the War Galaxy has 14 phaser arrays and the Galaxy-X has 16 exposed arrays with the cobra head array being removed.

[Death from the Sea]

So you consider the refit the Ent-D got(seen in the episode "family") after the first Borg incursion as apart of the 'first flight' model? Or do you say that there was no refit?
I personally think there are three versions like I said before. The Ent-D recieved extra phasers and a modification to the dilithium chamber and supposedly a few other modifications that were never specified. One could say they are on level with the first flight model because those were scheduled upgrades that the Ent-D was unable to get before due to being out exploring.

[Alyeska]

So you consider the refit the Ent-D got(seen in the episode "family") after the first Borg incursion as apart of the 'first flight' model? Or do you say that there was no refit?
I personally think there are three versions like I said before. The Ent-D recieved extra phasers and a modification to the dilithium chamber and supposedly a few other modifications that were never specified. One could say they are on level with the first flight model because those were scheduled upgrades that the Ent-D was unable to get before due to being out exploring.

Are you deaf or something? The Enterprise didn't recieve any fucking phasers. The ship recieved MINOR upgrades at this point which partialy improved its warp core problem (as evidence in Generations) but is still part of the first flight.

There are only two models of the Galaxy class. The First Flight (Galaxy, Enterprise, Yamato, Odyssey) and then the War Galaxy upgrade with improved warp cores, more powerful weapons, etc... There are sub mods like the Venture with the added phasers on the warp engines. The Enterprise NEVER had those added arrays.

[HappyTarget]

The Ent-D recieved extra phasers

No she didn't. The only time we've seen extra phasers on a Galaxy class or Galaxy subclass is in TNG "All Good Things" where the future E-D had phaser strips on the top of her warp nacelles, and in DS9 during the Domion War where the USS Venture also had the phaser strips on her nacelles.

THE E-D NEVER HAD HER WEAPONS UPGRADED SIGNIFICANTLY DURING HER LIFE.

[Tribun]

The Defaint would reduce the Ent-D to a floating debris field in less than five minutes. Thier pule phasers are real shield killers, and without thier shields, the Galaxy-Class ships are only gaint, floating target object.

[The Silence and I]

One phrase: Quantum Torpedoes.

Without them, the E-D is blown away. A war galaxy is a different story but the E-D had really lousy shields for its size, and would not survive long enough to bring its substantial firepower to bear.

[Death from the Sea]

Are you deaf or something? The Enterprise didn't recieve any fucking phasers. The ship recieved MINOR upgrades at this point which partialy improved its warp core problem (as evidence in Generations) but is still part of the first flight.

There are only two models of the Galaxy class. The First Flight (Galaxy, Enterprise, Yamato, Odyssey) and then the War Galaxy upgrade with improved warp cores, more powerful weapons, etc... There are sub mods like the Venture with the added phasers on the warp engines. The Enterprise NEVER had those added arrays.

Ok, you are right and I apologize for being thickheaded, I went back and watched part of Generations and there were no extra phasers on the nacelles. It's just that could have sworn I remember Worf telling Picard about the phaser upgrades being complete, I must have confused it with something else.

[Alyeska]

Are you deaf or something? The Enterprise didn't recieve any fucking phasers. The ship recieved MINOR upgrades at this point which partialy improved its warp core problem (as evidence in Generations) but is still part of the first flight.

There are only two models of the Galaxy class. The First Flight (Galaxy, Enterprise, Yamato, Odyssey) and then the War Galaxy upgrade with improved warp cores, more powerful weapons, etc... There are sub mods like the Venture with the added phasers on the warp engines. The Enterprise NEVER had those added arrays.

Ok, you are right and I apologize for being thickheaded, I went back and watched part of Generations and there were no extra phasers on the nacelles. It's just that could have sworn I remember Worf telling Picard about the phaser upgrades being complete, I must have confused it with something else.

The Enterprise had minor upgrades to their phasers throughout the series, but nothing significant. The War Galaxy had the real upgrades with improved warp cores being able to channel more power through the arrays.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

BZZZZZZZT! wrong it is stated in DS9 that the warp core of the Defiant is more powerful than that of a galaxy class starship.

Exscuse me!!? When, what episode, I want a direct quote.

It has been a long time since I saw the episode and I don't remember the name of the episode, but IIRC it is stated in the same conversation that Kira says the pulse phaser canons are more powerful than a galaxy class ships phasers. If anyone can remember the name of that episode please speak up.

You said the warp core is more powerful, but it's common knowledge that it's actually the more efficient power transfer system that makes the pulse phasers so beasty, not the core itself.

[Knife]

The Defaint would reduce the Ent-D to a floating debris field in less than five minutes. Thier pule phasers are real shield killers, and without thier shields, the Galaxy-Class ships are only gaint, floating target object.

The Defient does not have the ability to keep its weapons on target for sufficent amount of time to kill a Galaxy before the larger amount of weapons on the Galaxy can kill it, unless it stays in realitively still facing the Galaxy. The Defient was designed so that its punch was in the forward arc and very, very little punch anywhere else. While the weapons coverage in a Galaxy is not perfect, it can still deliever a sufficent amount of firepower in most angles of attack to keep weapons fire on the Defient and the Defient can only slap the Galaxy around when here nose is facing the target.

[Howedar]

The Defient does not have the ability to keep its weapons on target for sufficent amount of time to kill a Galaxy before the larger amount of weapons on the Galaxy can kill it, unless it stays in realitively still facing the Galaxy.

And why can it not do this? As I have shown, there are areas in which a Galaxy can direct *no* firepower, and there are many areas that are poorly covered.

The Defient was designed so that its punch was in the forward arc and very, very little punch anywhere else.

The ideal firepower distribution when you are far more maneuverable than your enemies. Diluting your firepower is not desirable.

While the weapons coverage in a Galaxy is not perfect, it can still deliever a sufficent amount of firepower in most angles of attack to keep weapons fire on the Defient

The entire aft quarter of a GCS is poorly covered, and there are areas with no cover at all. The Defiant is maneuverable enough that it need never leave htis safe zone.

and the Defient can only slap the Galaxy around when here nose is facing the target.

So it might as well park its ass right behind the GCS and pour the fire on.

[Knife]

And why can it not do this? As I have shown, there are areas in which a Galaxy can direct *no* firepower, and there are many areas that are poorly covered.

It has to get there first, and that means going through the firing arcs.

The ideal firepower distribution when you are far more maneuverable than your enemies. Diluting your firepower is not desirable.

True, but when the target is enormous in relation to you, and has weapons coverage that exceeds you, then it becomes a liability.

The entire aft quarter of a GCS is poorly covered, and there are areas with no cover at all. The Defiant is maneuverable enough that it need never leave htis safe zone.

Not necessarily, while the Galaxy manuvers like a stuck pig, it is not like the Defient is so small that it can fit like a glove in the deadspace. Plus again, the Defient has to get there first.

So it might as well park its ass right behind the GCS and pour the fire on.

Yeah, right where those two phaser strips and the aft torpedo launcher is.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

So it might as well park its ass right behind the GCS and pour the fire on.

Yeah, right where those two phaser strips and the aft torpedo launcher is.

I would recommend a high-speed approach from high quarter aft, massive volley of quantum torpedoes and PPCs to pound the living fuck out of their aft shields (which for some reason I recall going down once when they were taking punishment from directly ahead -- maybe I'm misremembering that.) Then break off without giving the E-D any more room than necessary and repeat as necessary until aft shields fail. At that point I'd hope Defiant has aft-firing weapons of her own, because she'll need all due speed to outrun the inevitable A/M explosion which is sure to result from her next shot.

[Howedar]

It has to get there first, and that means going through the firing arcs.

One pass. I expect the Defiant would survive one pass

True, but when the target is enormous in relation to you, and has weapons coverage that exceeds you, then it becomes a liability.

When your target is enormous in relation to you, keeping your firepower concentrated becomes all the more important. As for better weapons coverage, its not "better" enough.

Not necessarily, while the Galaxy manuvers like a stuck pig, it is not like the Defient is so small that it can fit like a glove in the deadspace. Plus again, the Defient has to get there first.

I dare say it could, after it survives that dreaded single pass. GCSs simply cannot turn worth shit. Compare to "Mirror, Mirror"

Yeah, right where those two phaser strips and the aft torpedo launcher is.

What, those two fucking tiny phaser strips? Wouldn't worry about them overmuch, as it is pretty clear that larger arrays are more powerful. As for the torpedo launcher, I was taking a bit of semantic license. I didn't mean literally right behind the tail of the GCS. Above and behind, while still very close, would be better. You'd get good shots on the bridge, nacelles, shuttlebays, and engineering.

[MrAnderson]

The Defaint would reduce the Ent-D to a floating debris field in less than five minutes. Thier pule phasers are real shield killers, and without thier shields, the Galaxy-Class ships are only gaint, floating target object.

The Defient does not have the ability to keep its weapons on target for sufficent amount of time to kill a Galaxy before the larger amount of weapons on the Galaxy can kill it, unless it stays in realitively still facing the Galaxy. The Defient was designed so that its punch was in the forward arc and very, very little punch anywhere else. While the weapons coverage in a Galaxy is not perfect, it can still deliever a sufficent amount of firepower in most angles of attack to keep weapons fire on the Defient and the Defient can only slap the Galaxy around when here nose is facing the target.

Too bad the Enterprise routinely misses large cruiser size ships that are mere dozens of miles away and barely maneuvering. At best I see the Enterprise connecting with about 30% of its hits on a maneuvering Defiant.

[Alyeska]

The Defaint would reduce the Ent-D to a floating debris field in less than five minutes. Thier pule phasers are real shield killers, and without thier shields, the Galaxy-Class ships are only gaint, floating target object.

The Defient does not have the ability to keep its weapons on target for sufficent amount of time to kill a Galaxy before the larger amount of weapons on the Galaxy can kill it, unless it stays in realitively still facing the Galaxy. The Defient was designed so that its punch was in the forward arc and very, very little punch anywhere else. While the weapons coverage in a Galaxy is not perfect, it can still deliever a sufficent amount of firepower in most angles of attack to keep weapons fire on the Defient and the Defient can only slap the Galaxy around when here nose is facing the target.

Incorrect. The Enterprise has shown near perfect accuracy with its phasers and very high levels of accuracy with its torpedoes. Furthermore the Defiant class had two rear facing Quantum Torpedo launchers.

Too bad the Enterprise routinely misses large cruiser size ships that are mere dozens of miles away and barely maneuvering. At best I see the Enterprise connecting with about 30% of its hits on a maneuvering Defiant.