George Lucas', and Matt Stover's Stupidity (Spoilers)

[Illuminatus Primus]

It is indeed partially they're fault. When I brought up how dumb this was on the Lit Forum, Stover had these things to say:

Trias, Stover is well aware of how few troops that is. That point is made quite clearly. How that's only one clone and change for every planet in the Republic. How the only reason it's working is because of the Republic's strategy, which so far has avoided big battles in favor of quick strikes. And how 1.2 million is not enough, and he knows that civilians will be swept into the war and casualties will mount.

Problems: Inside the Worlds [of AOTC] and the extent of deployment in the EU suggests much larger numbers. As said in In Inside the Worlds of AOTC, "millions" should be available.

The fact that Stover realizes its too little doesn't make it any less stupid. Stover himself spoke about the trillions of original inhabitants on Coruscant.

Time has passed, he had the option to paint an epic picture of the Clone Wars, and instead we get rediculous minimalism. 1.2 million troops would be lucky to hold down one world. There are millions. The droid factories should be making 10s of the 1000s of droids per day, and they should just be overrunning everywhere because the Republic, in Stover's mind, can't field as many troops as many of the countries on Earth.

<<Time has passed, he had the option to paint an epic picture of the Clone Wars, and instead we get rediculous minimalism. 1.2 million troops would be lucky to hold down one world. There are millions. The droid factories should be making 10s of the 1000s of droids per day, and they should just be overrunning everywhere because the Republic, in Stover's mind, can't field as many troops as many of the countries on Earth.>>

In MY mind?

Take it up with Mr. Lucas.

In MY mind?

Take it up with Mr. Lucas.

Did George Lucas demand that one unit = one clone, that 1.2 million was the entire clonetrooper quantity available half a year into the war, that the quote be taken literally; indefinitely.

Did anyone bring up how absurd 1.2 million was, for more than the initial expeditionary force from Tipoca City, months into the war? The idea that a quantity would remain constant is silly in itself. When each of the enemy's factories can churn out 10s of 1000s of droids a day?

What about the Acclamator order, that, IIRC, should've been worth 16 million clones?

There should be 1.2 million Generals in the Republic/Allied armed forces.

1.2 million isn't enough to train a galaxy-wide army. 1.2 million might be enough for the "on-street" police force in the Imperial City.

1.2 million was appropriate for the initial expeditionary force from Tipoca City. Is that the force that is implied by the scale of the Star Wars galaxy or the extent of their utilization as per the EU and AOTC? They are THE army, and have been deployed quite extensively. They should at least number in the billions.

Did no one bring this up?

It being a bit late to nip this in the bud, let me try to nip it in full flower.

I had to work with what I was given. That's what I did. There are factors that I am not at liberty to discuss.

Perhaps -- as I said again and again, in regard to TRAITOR -- everyone would be better served to wait and see how it all plays out, before anyone starts to kick and scream.

[Master of Ossus]

WTF does that mean? "There are factors that I am not at liberty to discuss." What factors? I somehow cannot imagine that the 1.2 million clone army will become less ridiculous as time goes on.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Either he really was told something by Del Rey/Lucasbooks/LFL about this, or he just copied the fallacy and is covering his ass, I suppose.

The only fix I can provide is there are other, less well-known clones bequeathed to the local militaries, since the Republic has not yet appeared to adequately unify themselves.

Still, I cannot fathom why the Kaminoan Clones were as important as they were in the plot and such and in AOTC, if all there ever was was just 1.2 million individuals.

A half-hearted recruiting program in any sector should be able to turn out a force that could overwhelm the clones with sheer numbers, so why does it matter?

Any fix?

EDIT: Ossus, I suggest you go on the Lit forum and ask yourself or e-mail Stover. I have no luck.

[Towlie]

Maybe the discrepancy [small # of clone troopers] has something to do with the possible appearance and entry of Stormtroopers into EpIII.

[His Divine Shadow]

The Republic's only got a million member worlds, now? WTF?

What's wrong with that figure, doesn't ANH mention a million world Empire?

Full member worlds yes, but what about all the colonies and dependencies?
We're up to 51 million for the Empire then.

[Joe Momma]

WTF does that mean? "There are factors that I am not at liberty to discuss." What factors? I somehow cannot imagine that the 1.2 million clone army will become less ridiculous as time goes on.

Those factors might have nothing to do with the army itself and everything to do with NDAs (Non-Disclosure Agreements) or similar obligations to the licensee, i.e. Lucasfilms. He might also be in the unenviable position of not being able to go into more detail without pissing off Lucasbooks or Del Ray and possibly scotching future book deals by making himself look disagreeable to the company.

This would hardly be the first time something stupid came down from on high. Remember the whole "droid in the Jedi starfighter bit" where someone pointed out to George Lucas that it wouldn't fit without the feet sticking out the bottom (shades of the Naboo fighter "where'd Artoo's shoulders go" debacle) and he just blew off saying no one would notice. Which was bullshit, BTW -- opening night the friend sitting next to me asked, "Where'd the rest of the droid go?" and he was just Joe Average Viewer, not a geek fanboy who obsesses over that kind of shit like I do.

I do find it telling that Stover didn't even try to defend it, he just suggested that the questions be directed upwards. If he had any part of it, you'd think he'd field some kind of explanation/rationale. Not that this is proof of anything one way or the other.

The droid bit got fixed with an after the fact explanation. Whether the army will get the same treatment or not remains to be seen.

-- Joe Momma

EDIT: added third paragraph

[Joe Momma]

Still, I cannot fathom why the Kaminoan Clones were as important as they were in the plot and such and in AOTC, if all there ever was was just 1.2 million individuals.

AFAICT, part of their significance was the fact that there was an army at all, because it represented a significant shift in Republic policy. Also, the fact that the creation of that army had apparently been undertaken a decade before events reached this crucial turning point was indicative of a potential conspiracy, but I think that was a minor point except to the Jedi investigating the situation.

-- Joe Momma

[Vympel]

In Episode III there'll be Stormtroopers, not Clonetroopers- maybe the 'fix', if any, lies therein.

[Joe Momma]

BTW, which books/comics/whatever would anyone suggest to get a better picture of the Clone Wars?

I'm particularly interested what types of engagements they're having. Are they actively trying to bring the Secessionist systems back under control? Are they fighting to repel invasion efforts by the CIS? How much of the Clone Wars at this point is actually being waged militarily vice diplomatic or economic means? When we're talking about the clonetroopers taking and holding worlds, how many actual worlds are they taking and holding?

1.2 million troops is almost certainly ridiculously low. At the same time, it sounds like everyone is assuming that that the clonetroopers are fighting in thousands of systems simultaneously. The numbers might be considerably less at that point in time depending on the extent to which the war between the CIS and the Republic is cold instead of hot.

Sure, they still need a lot more bulletstoppers no matter what, but it might be nice to get an idea how many orders of magnitude the numbers need to be increased.

OTOH, if the CIS systems are like Vulcan then 1.2 million troops can take and hold 600 worlds, ha-ha.

-- Joe Momma

[Illuminatus Primus]

The EU currently suffers the same minimalism. The stories invariably are cliched rehashed of some weapon-of-the-week and the Jedi thwarting it.

Most of the "heavy action" occured right on the heels of Geonosis.

Basically, on the heels of Geonosis, we have a brief campiagn by the Grand Army and the Seperatists in the Clone Wars game and Galactic Battlegrounds.

Since then, most action has been limited to terrorist or probing attacks.

Kamino was attacked by one Trade Federation battleship--pure minimalism there. Ten thousand were at Naboo, but only one can be spared to attack the hope for the Republic? But why would it even matter--the next generations of clones probably won't be ready for a year or so, and the 1.2 million is already gone.

They are, as expected, making the first six months of the Clone War(s) rather cold, rather than hot.

Personally this all irritates me greatly. Zahn and the Chronology always gave me the impression of a Clone Wars so bad, the people would want the New Order, that whole worlds were wiped out, that history and records were sketchy and wrong. Insane clones everywhere, resulting in the TTT-era revulsion toward the subject. Worlds burning.

I expected a 5-10 year really hot war, unsurpassed by anything, including the Vong Invasion or the Galactic Civil War. Unforuntately, it seems rather cold and lackluster and minimalist.

[Darth Wong]

I suspect Stover is being dishonest. I seriously doubt Lucas intervened to make him use a 1.2 million figure 6 months into the clone war, since other literature has been produced which indicated much higher numbers without interference from him.

More likely he simply took the 1.2 million figure from AOTC, failed to apply any kind of logic to it, and now uses that as an excuse to say that GL is responsible for what he did.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I suspect the same.

Inside the Worlds of Attack of the Clones indicated many millions more [than the 1.2 million from the movie] were on the verge of deployment, with the first 1.2 million simply being the initial expeditionary force.

Inside the Worlds of Attack of the Clones is more canonical than Shatterpoint.

Who thinks that Stover's novel got more LFL micro-managing than a higher-canonical publication?

I don't.

[MKSheppard]

So?

Way I see it, the Clonetroopers are not deployed enmasse, but
in "fire brigades" to shore up threatened planetary armies - they're
too damn expensive to use in pure attritional battles.

[MKSheppard]

Look at TPM--huge battleships larger than the destroyers of the OT--stretch horizon to horizon.

Weren't those "converted merchantmen" really?

[Illuminatus Primus]

So?

Way I see it, the Clonetroopers are not deployed enmasse, but
in "fire brigades" to shore up threatened planetary armies - they're
too damn expensive to use in pure attritional battles.

So what? Of what consequence is a "Grand Army" which numbers 1.2 million troops? Less than the likely police force of Coruscant?

You're neglecting the fact that they say they're being run around to counter each significant Seperatist push. 1.2 million isn't even enough for fire brigades, especially when they are, for all basic purposes, the only army. The Security Forces still haven't been nationalized, and are straight-jacketed by ships which lack the range to leave their sector.

If this is really what the GR has to offer, they should already have lost. 1.2 million is totally meaningless in a galactic strategic sense.

And why is it even called the Clone Wars if the "wars" are this cold, and the "clones" are a tiny little specops group?

Look at TPM--huge battleships larger than the destroyers of the OT--stretch horizon to horizon.

Weren't those "converted merchantmen" really?

Name game? They're carriers, and amass far more military materiel than all but the largest Imperial carriers of the next era.

They are worth quite a lot, and the existance of the Core Ship and its modular nature suggests that Trade Fed Battleships are not being constructed from the inset as warships.

And the point is production and industrial capability. RPG wankers seem to think the ISD is the be all and end all of SW capitalships and an unbelievable investment in resources and time, apparently.

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah, I think that Stover's BSing a justification. There's no way that Lucas would allow other EU material to state greater numbers while shackling him to the 1.2 million reported in AotC.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The clone military education complex, which dominates Tipoca City, is the biggest training center on Kamino. Its current production is dedicated to fulfilling the Republic contract, the largest cloning project the Kaminoan government has ever undertaken. When Obi-Wan arrives, Tipoca is already primed to deliver 200,000 clone troops, while facilities across the planet are equipped to produce millions more.

Superlative: there are multiple training centers.

Tipoca City delivered the initial 200,000 clones; perhaps also the additional 1,000,000. (Republic 50 suggests this).

Other facilities are ready to produce millions more clones.

The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations.

This almost seems to imply there are more than one "batch", and that "millions of divisions" more are under going evaluation.





Who believes Stover now?

[Stravo]

IF we are to believe that Lucas' people are as stringent with the EU meeting requirements as I always hear then HOW did Stover's figures slip past them then?

Either Lucas' people do not check as stringently as we believe

or

Stover's figure is more correct than the numbers Illuminiatus just cited.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well using kaminoan techniques, a clone takes 10 years to grow, a few months between *initial* batches can be believed.

[Joe Momma]

Tipoca City delivered the initial 200,000 clones; perhaps also the additional 1,000,000. (Republic 50 suggests this).

Is there any mention of how much time passed between AOTC and Republic 50?

Other facilities are ready to produce millions more clones.

The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations.

This almost seems to imply there are more than one "batch", and that "millions of divisions" more are under going evaluation.

Any idea how quick (or slow) the evaluation process is? If it took two or three months to get the rest of the Tipoca City batch delivered and evaluations take several more months beyond that, then the figures are not contradictory. At the 6 month mark there'd still be only 1.2 million, though more would join thereafter.

(BTW, I hate to say it but the millions more could be referring to "millions of troopers" rather than divisions. We've been trying to argue that the vagueness of the quotes would hopefully allow us to interpret the 1.2 million as undefined units multiple toopers (though the latest information seems to imply that 1.2 million troopers is exactly what they meant), but that cuts both ways for other vague quotes.)

Who believes Stover now?

I still think there's too little information at the moment to say strongly one way or the other. Lucas's licensing department does sufficient micromanagement that WOTC had to get corrections for typos approved before they could issue their errata for the first edition of their RPG and the RPGs are certainly of less importance than the books given how much less money they pull in (by WOTC' s own admission).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

IF we are to believe that Lucas' people are as stringent with the EU meeting requirements as I always hear then HOW did Stover's figures slip past them then?

Either Lucas' people do not check as stringently as we believe

or

Stover's figure is more correct than the numbers Illuminiatus just cited.

I'm more for the former. Personally, I don't think Lucas really checks the details that much. They might check the storyline, but the details... didn't Lucas once say something derogative about people like us, who love his show enough to analyze it in excruciating detail - "Most people won't really notice"?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Stover's figure is more correct than the numbers Illuminiatus just cited.

Impossible; there has to be a fix. Inside the Worlds of Attack of the Clones is a higher-canonical source than Shatterpoint, A Clone Wars Novel. Unless we confirm Lucas said Stover is more right than Inside the Worlds..., Inside the Worlds... remains a higher authority.

A fix must be sought.

[Ender]

The clone military education complex, which dominates Tipoca City, is the biggest training center on Kamino. Its current production is dedicated to fulfilling the Republic contract, the largest cloning project the Kaminoan government has ever undertaken. When Obi-Wan arrives, Tipoca is already primed to deliver 200,000 clone troops, while facilities across the planet are equipped to produce millions more.

Superlative: there are multiple training centers.

Tipoca City delivered the initial 200,000 clones; perhaps also the additional 1,000,000. (Republic 50 suggests this).

Other facilities are ready to produce millions more clones.

The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations.

This almost seems to imply there are more than one "batch", and that "millions of divisions" more are under going evaluation.


Who believes Stover now?

I do, because I know that you constantly go through preformance evaluatiosn during training even when your training is no where near complete.

The fact that millions more were being evaluated does not mean that they were full grown adults awaiting deployment.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I do, because I know that you constantly go through preformance evaluatiosn during training even when your training is no where near complete.

The fact that millions more were being evaluated does not mean that they were full grown adults awaiting deployment.

Point taken.

Truth be told though, at least Stover realizes 1.2 million is not enough. I'm really more angry at Ostrander, who ignored the fact that there are many more facilities than Tipoca City, and basically implied that that was the only Kaminoan settlement protected by only a single Hoth-style energy shield.

[Sea Skimmer]

Weren't those "converted merchantmen" really?

Yes