Starfleet not military

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-06-18 04:26pm

Recently watched an Enterprise episode. It was the last one. The captain talks to an admiral about a discussion with a general, to which the admiral replied, "Are you sure you want military aboard?" I believe that was what he said. So, does that mean that Starfleet is not a military organization, and just as importantly, does that mean that Earth has a standing, professional military -- if so, what is it's size, composition, and disposition?

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-06-18 04:32pm

Code: Select all

I believe that was what he said. So, does that mean that Starfleet is not a military organization

You mean you thought Starfleet was a military BEFORE this happened? Picard himself said that Starfleet was not a military, was rather emphatic on that point IIRC. It sometimes fills the role of a half assed military (which is why it's so easy to poke holes in it's effectiveness), but on the whole, it's more of an armed diplomatic and scientific corps.

and just as importantly, does that mean that Earth has a standing, professional military

In Ent. it does at least for some of the major players. Malcom Reed's parents were peeved with him for not joining the Royal Navy and instead joining Starfleet. No info that I can offhand recall about others, but I think that the Royal Navy comment was the only one that talked about actual Ent. era military powers other than Starfleet.

if so, what is it's size, composition, and disposition?

We know virtually nothing about it aside from the fact that the British Royal Navy is still around.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2003-06-18 04:34pm

The Royal Navy still exists so Earth must still have military forces (and individual countries have them too). Starfleet seems to be mostly used for exploration although Starfleet ships did help Ent against that BoP at the end of the season.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-06-18 04:34pm

If they have family and children aboard starships then no Starfleet is not military.
EDIT:And Picard is the 24th century Captain Stubbing

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-06-18 04:45pm

It depends on wether or not the books are cannon, in one a Army is mentioned, and showed.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-18 05:38pm

"We're not a military, Captain!"
"Are you sure, Lieutenant?"
"Hmm, maybe we better ask the Admiral."

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-06-18 08:50pm

How is Starfleet not military? They operate and maintain a fleet of armed ships and a number of armed personnel in the name of the Federation government. That sounds like a textbook example of a military organization to me. If they aren't military, then who else is? Who was fighting the Dominion, and just happened to use the same ship designs as the "non-military" Starfleet? Dialogue may say that Starfleet is not military, but observation shows that Starfleet ships operated by Starfleet personnel are the ones who defend the Federation from its enemies. As for the argument, "Starfleet is an exploration and scientific organization," yes, in peacetime they run exploration and scientific missions for the Federation. So did the navies and air forces of many countries on Earth. It did not make them stop being military; they are just this other thing too. The same can be said of Starfleet.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-06-18 08:57pm

Scientific research and discovery is their primary goal, unlike worldly militaries.

EDIT: That was a bit brief. It's like this: Starfleet is a scientific research organization that also is the primary military force of the UFP. The US military is the primary military force of the US that also carries out scientific research.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-18 09:01pm

Hense why Starfleet's motto should be "Home to sitting ducks everywhere."

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-06-18 10:03pm

Despite their stated primary mission, Starfleet is military, because they fit the criteria for one. What are the criteria?

1. They are organized like a military organization. They have ranks, uniforms, and discipline like a military organizaton.

2. They are armed. Their ships have weapons on them. Their personnel are trained to fight, both armed and unarmed.

3. They defend the Federation from attackers. They are the only arm of the government of the Federation that I have ever seen doing that.

4. They are part of the government of the Federation. If they were a private organization and did the other things, they would be a militia.

If anyone thinks Starfleet doesn't fit these criteria, or that those don't describe a military organization, speak up.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2003-06-18 10:06pm

Starfleet is the Federation's military. This isn't a hard concept to grasp. Yes, they switch roles between themselves, and terrestrial militaries by being explorers first, fighters second, but as CDiehl said, those fighting the Dominion were starfleet, thus military.

Now, Enterprise's obsession with suddenly getting "Military Commandos" is....odd. It suggests that perhaps these new folks coming aboard the ship are actually from the military's of other governments on Earth, which is kind of interesting. The specalities of these commandos couldn't be trained in Starfleet, they had to go outside of Starfleet to get them. (at least that's what it sounds like.) The fact that you never hear Starfleet (cannonly) refer to getting specalized commandos in the series' (other than Red Squad, and the like) means that they abandoned even this training later on.

My 2 cents

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-18 10:51pm

CDiehl wrote:Despite their stated primary mission, Starfleet is military, because they fit the criteria for one. What are the criteria?

1. They are organized like a military organization. They have ranks, uniforms, and discipline like a military organizaton.

I think that last part is highly debatable.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-06-19 02:30am

How is Starfleet not military? They operate and maintain a fleet of armed ships and a number of armed personnel in the name of the Federation government.

Hence why I said they sometimes perform the duties of one half assed.

That sounds like a textbook example of a military organization to me.

Yes it would be, if you didn't include the OTHER STUFF they do PRIMARILY!

It would be like taking the US military, then making it into NASA first, with defense of US and her interests abroad something to do once they have the time and a surplus budget.

If they aren't military, then who else is?

Unfortunately no one in the Federation

Who was fighting the Dominion, and just happened to use the same ship designs as the "non-military" Starfleet?

And who's 'non-military' desings routinely got their asses handed to them by the Jem'Hadar?

Dialogue may say that Starfleet is not military, but observation shows that Starfleet ships operated by Starfleet personnel are the ones who defend the Federation from its enemies.

Part time yes they do, and all to often this part timedness shows quite ballantly. Hence they are a half assed pseudo military.

As for the argument, "Starfleet is an exploration and scientific organization," yes, in peacetime they run exploration and scientific missions for the Federation. So did the navies and air forces of many countries on Earth. It did not make them stop being military; they are just this other thing too. The same can be said of Starfleet.

But see, Starfleet is MORE other things than they are military, which is why they have such poor military skills and equipment.

1. They are organized like a military organization. They have ranks, uniforms, and discipline like a military organizaton.

So does the merchant marine, as does any civilian ships' crew. Now are you telling me that that makes your nearest cruise liner a military vessel? Afterall, they have ranks, they have uniforms and they require discipline and a command structure to get things done right? And if Starfleet is a shining example of military discipline, I think you need to examine modern day military discipline. Trek is distinctly lacking in this area.

2. They are armed. Their ships have weapons on them. Their personnel are trained to fight, both armed and unarmed.

They are armed poorly. Some personnel are trained to fight, and most of them are also trained poorly. All goes back to the fact that most are explorers and scientists and diplomats first, unlike modern day military servicemen and women. Also, a good analogy would be early Earth explorers. They routinely set out in ships that were armed and had crews trained in fighting and warfare, because they knew that the high seas were a dangerous place, so it's best to be prepaired. This didn't mean that they were warships and part of the military.

3. They defend the Federation from attackers. They are the only arm of the government of the Federation that I have ever seen doing that.

And they also do so poorly, because being a military and engageing in combat is not their primary mission. Certainly they can take on this role, but that means they are a pesudo military or a poor military, take your pick.

4. They are part of the government of the Federation. If they were a private organization and did the other things, they would be a militia.

NASA is part of the governement. Should it be required to provide self defense for it's survey craft, would that make NASA a military organization or a scientific/exploration organization that has weapons?

If anyone thinks Starfleet doesn't fit these criteria, or that those don't describe a military organization, speak up.

Done, and done.

Starfleet is the Federation's military. This isn't a hard concept to grasp. Yes, they switch roles between themselves, and terrestrial militaries by being explorers first, fighters second, but as CDiehl said, those fighting the Dominion were starfleet, thus military.

They serve the function of a military yes, but they are not considered a military by the Federation itself. And considering how lackluster their overall performance on the military front of things is, even if they are a military, it definately shows that being one is only when the moonlight and not their day job.

Now, Enterprise's obsession with suddenly getting "Military Commandos" is....odd. It suggests that perhaps these new folks coming aboard the ship are actually from the military's of other governments on Earth, which is kind of interesting.

Why is it odd. The Federation doesn't consider Starfleet a military. Pre TOS Earth doesn't either. Hence why they had to hire what ammount to mercinaries to get their combat capabilities up to snuff that a REAL military would have already had in place.

The specalities of these commandos couldn't be trained in Starfleet, they had to go outside of Starfleet to get them. (at least that's what it sounds like.)

No, not COULDN'T, WAS NOT. Fits when you realize that those who live in Starfleet's time DON'T CONSIDER IT A MILITARY. Did you miss Malcom's recurring griping about how Enterprise wasn't a military ship, lacking military disipline? Hell, when they launched, they didn't even have a frelling GQ alarm, which has been a staple of modern day MILITARY vessels for decades.

The fact that you never hear Starfleet (cannonly) refer to getting specalized commandos in the series' (other than Red Squad, and the like) means that they abandoned even this training later on

Only goes to show you that as a military, Starfleet sucks because they don't THINK THEY ARE ONE THEMSELVES. Starfleet is a pesudo military. It's quite difficult to make it fit current discriptions, as it doesn't fit very neatly into any of them.

I have my own list of questions.

1) How many militaries forgo practicing and studying military arts in favour of studying strange phenemonon and other cultures?

2) How many militaries merge their military duties with scientific exploration to the point where the scientific exploration is 99% of their job description and only 1% is left to actual military duties?

3) How many modern militaries have distinguished seinior officers of sound minde and body that swear up and down that they are not part of a military?

4) How many modern militaries would bring thousands of civilians allong into battle conditions where there was a virtual certainty that some would inevitably die?

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-06-19 03:44am

Starfleet is and always was the Federation's military forces. They are incompetent at doing the military part of their job, and prefer to emphasize other jobs, but they are all the Federation has standing between it and being conquered. Their officers can say what they like, but they do the military's job, exclusively; no other organ of the Federation government fights wars for the Federation and is not Starfleet. The Federation seriously needs to establish a dedicated military force, and let Starfleet focus on exploration and science. Trying to have one organization do both doesn't work, because they'll do one or the other poorly. Starfleet could continue to arm its ships and personnel to defend against potential dangers. In a war or emergency, they could function as support vessels to the regular military, doing scouting, maintenance, providing humanitarian aid, and maybe developing new non-lethal technologies.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-06-19 05:45am

Happy is right. In Enterprise, the fledging Starfleet is shown as a pure exploration force, but because of the risky business that space exploration is in Trek, they also need to be heavily armed and capable of defending themselves.

Why they've adopted a military like command structure, I don't know.

For pure military operations, however, they don't have capable and well-trained people, just the ships' own security personnell. Apparently the Starfleet in "Enterprise" is intelligent enough to realize that they need real soldiers for combat situations, and thus they've asked help from Earth's own military forces.

Remember that at this point Earth is still divided into nations which maintain their own militaries like they do today, and Starfleet is (apparently - judging by the ship's crew -) an American led project.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-06-19 01:25pm

Starfleet is the only organization I have ever seen that defends the Federation. If they are not the military, then why are they doing the military's basic job? They may be an exploration organization that carries out the function of the military by default, but default or not, they are the military. If they were not military, they would be organized and employed in a different manner from what we are shown.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2003-06-19 01:51pm

From the first post I think that Jegs was refering to the Enterprise era Starfleet as opposed to the TOS+ Starfleet. When Enterprise takes place Starfleet doesn't appear to be military but does have a military style organisation (when operating armed starships this doesn't seem too far-fetched).

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-06-19 01:55pm

I think it might have been in one of the old James Blish books that James T. Kirk mused about Starfleet and effectively stated that Starfleet took its ranks, roots and traditions more from the US Coast Guard than more overtly military organizations. That might be the most accurate evaluation of Starfleet (even if not remotely official).

Starfleet is, effectively, the Federation's equivalent of the Coast Guard. It's tasked with rescuing spacefarers in distress, planets in distress, bikini-clad green-skinned space maidens in distress, exploring gaseous anomalies, exploding into gaseous anomalies, and putting a stop to piracy.

The problem is that the Federation also relies on its Coast Guard to fight its wars, which is a thrifty approach that does not intimidate the pacifistic member worlds but does mean that shooting wars against forces with technological parity will result in excessive casualties. Apparently that is a cost that the Federation is willing to bear.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-19 03:19pm

Starfleet is about the equivalent of todays NASA. NASA does afterall use some airforce officers so I think it falls under the military jurisdiction.... somewhat.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-19 05:15pm

Nope. The only military stuff NASA ever does is occasionally launch military satellites with the Shuttle, and I think they stopped doing that in recent years.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-06-19 06:57pm

uh.. isnt starfleet inherent to the federation? and.. has the federation even been FORMED yet?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-06-19 07:42pm

One thing about folks wishing to compare Starfleet to the US Coast Guard: The USCG is a bonified military service, complete with officer and enlisted pay-grades, fully in-line with DoD O, W, and E grade scales. All Coast Guard personnel fall under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), as do all uniformed members of all military branches. In fact, my four years of enlisted service in the USCG count toward my current paygrade in the Army, and those years count toward retirement.

The USCG is the only branch of the US military that has authority to detain and arrest civilians on the high seas. They can stop any vessel flying the US flag (or found to be registered in the US), anywhere, and they can stop any vessel in US waters, regardless of country of origin. In time of war, the USCG can be subordinated to the Navy, but that hasn't happened since WW2. The USCG does conduct a wartime mission of patrolling US waters and escorting Naval groups. Some of you will say that you've seen Navy vessels stop and search civilian vessels. Those Navy vessels had a USCG LEDET (Law Enforcement Detatchment) aboard, and the Navy ship in question lowers the Navy colors and hoists the USCG colors, effectively placing that ship under USCG command for that LE operation.

Edited for grammar...

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2003-06-19 11:51pm

In terms of the deployable debaticle that is Enterprise, I suppose there is some wiggle room to be tip toing around the idea that Starfleet isn't a military organization.

However, by DS9 era, at the very latest, this is different, and I'd be willing to say by TOS as well. No longer do you have terrestrial military subing for Starfleet. Starfleet's best and brightest are on these starships, boys and girls. IF there was another, REAL military beyond starfleet, they would give those folks command of the Defiants and Sovys, leaving the un-upgraded Galaxys and all other science vessels out to continue to explore. (or otherwise crew them with military personnel anyway during wartime) Is it a poor way to run a military? Absofragginlutely, but it IS their military. There's no one else there that can do the job. Whether or not they say it is or isn't, it is. This is what they use for military purposes, to ward off enemies, to hold territory, and to take territory. If they gave the warships to military personnel, trained in military doctrine, and under a different command ("Space Force" however corney), then maybe it'd work out. Otherwise, hide the children, lock the doors, pray to God (wait, can't do that either), Starfleet is the one thing that stands between you, and the abyss. (Besides perhaps Section 31, the CIA and....yes...Section One, of the 24th century)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-20 01:03am

What i said over on the thread on Sb.

This is how I see it.

Ent (2150's): Starfleet is completely non military and is charged with going about looking at cool nebulae.

TOS (2260’s): Due to the aftermath of the Earth-Romulan war and continuing mounting tensions Starfleet now approximates a military and carries out such functions (gaining large scale disdain from Vulcans).

ST VI (2293): With the Klingons threat removed and the Romulans being rather cosy with the Federation, the military segment of Starfleet is gutted.

STTNG BOBW(2366): Starfleet takes a hammering from the Borg, along with the return of the Romulans and some instability in the Klingon empire the Federation decides to try and regain some military prowess.
However once the Borg threat becomes less immediate many of the proposals are shelved or reduced.

DS9 "The Jem Hadar"(2370): The Federation learns of a new aggressive race with seemingly superior technology, this lights a fire under Starfleet and many of the shelved designs and proposals are pulled out and once again updated and prepared for implementation.

DS9 "A Call to Arms"(2373) - "What you Leave Behind"(2375) : The Federation barely hangs onto victory through a series of extremely lucky events (Romulans entry into the war, Cardassian uprising, Prophets destroying a Dominion fleet, Founders growing ill(not exactly lucky but it wasn't a Starfleet event)), the Federation comes to realise that it can no longer afford a coast guard as opposed to a full blown military (especially as their major allies the Klingons will be out of the picture for 10 years).

Voy "Endgame"(2377): Starfleet has already enacted many of the principles, older designs have been retired, new military designs brought forward, increased military retrofitting of existing designs and finally defence fleets are stationed near key planets.

Admittedly that last one is speculation based upon the Federation fleet seen during endgame but it seems to fit well with the overall trend of Starfleet’s development.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-06-20 02:45am

^ Very cool and believable analysis.