General Order 24

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-06-19 09:17pm

"General Order 24 A command to destroy the surface of a planet unless the order is countermanded within a specified period."

Does anyone know where this order was first mentioned in ST?

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2003-06-19 09:27pm

paladin wrote:"General Order 24 A command to destroy the surface of a planet unless the order is countermanded within a specified period."

Does anyone know where this order was first mentioned in ST?

Are you sure that that's a ST order??? It sounds like a BDZ order for an ISD.

WarriorclanX · Post by **WarriorclanX** » 2003-06-19 09:31pm

yes it is...and it was first used in TOS episode "A taste of Armageddon", thats from the Trek Encyclopedia in case your wondering

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-06-19 09:47pm

Wouldn't that imply that the NCC-1701-nil could do a BDZ?

WarriorclanX · Post by **WarriorclanX** » 2003-06-19 09:49pm

Solauren wrote:Wouldn't that imply that the NCC-1701-nil could do a BDZ?

well by the text I think Kirk was bluffing cause he only did it to get two planets to enter peace talks or something, but I guess if they had the rule then it was possible on some scale...

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-06-19 09:57pm

I can't recall Scotty's precise quote, but in demanding the release of Capt. Kirk and the landing party, he stated that all military installations and cities, etc had been scanned, identified, and targeted. At the expiry of the deadline the Big-E was going to plast the planet. Now, she might not be able to do a BDZ; but I have no doubt she WOULD destroy every single target and population concentration on Eminiar VII.
A good episode that one

Also noteworthy for one (if not the very first) instance of a Fed ambassador trying to throw his weight around, overruling the decisions and judgements of professionals; almost got his ass tossed into a disintegrator for his trouble, but unfortunately, Spock saved said ass

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-19 10:00pm

Politically, such an order would be such a problem that I cannot see the order being given. In TOS, there appeared to be no bad guy like the borg that are such a unreasoning force you need to apply that. I could see some sort of bombardment to take out all defense facilities on a planet though.

In Starfire Novels, there is an order called General Directive Eighteen which is the eradiaction of a whole race.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-06-19 10:25pm

In this incident, the Eminians had already fired on the Enterprise (act of war under anyone's ROE) and were holding a Federation Starship captain, his first officer, and the landing party hostage. Further, they later lured a Federation ambassador into beaming down with the intent of executing him. This entire stupidity was based on their quaint little war with their intra-system neighbour, using numbers/computers/nintendo, which had been going on for about 5 centuries. Now, granted, it IS their planet --- but when they start to play games with powers that dont play nintendo war, but REAL war, they need some smacking around. Small wonder Kirk was willing to use GO 24 -- and as far as can be determined, it was no bluff.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-19 10:34pm

When it was first mentioned in TOS Kirk rambled off a list of things, power planets and sports ports and other such things that had been fed into the ships fire control computer. He also said that when the order was executed the Enterprise would begin destroying them.

Neither population nor the surface where mentioned as being targets, it was pretty clearly a counter technology and industry attack, not a melt the planet BDZ assault.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-06-19 10:39pm

Solauren wrote:Wouldn't that imply that the NCC-1701-nil could do a BDZ?

The E-nil was suppose to have enough firepower to level a continent. However, we don't know how long it would take and the extent of damage. Also, don't know the size of the continent size target. So, there's no way to really gauge it against a BDZ.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-19 10:40pm

I either cannot remember the episode or I have never seen it.
I am working from what I do remeber of old TOS Federation 'rules' and everything indicates that they would not go after similar targets. I may go see if I can get the tape at the library and watch it.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-19 11:09pm

Here are the relevant quotes (sorry about th format, I am having to add the names of people from memory because the online transcript doesn't have them).

Kirk: Scotty, general order 24 in 2 hours! In 2 hours!
First Councilman: Enterprise...
First Councilman: this is Anan 7,
First Councilman: first councilman of the High Council of Eminiar.
First Councilman: We hold your captain, his party,
First Councilman: your ambassador and his party prisoners.
First Councilman: Unless you immediately start transportation
First Councilman: of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface,
First Councilman: the hostages will be killed.
First Councilman: You have 30 minutes.
First Councilman: I mean it, Captain.
Kirk: All that it means is that I won't be around
Kirk: for the destruction.
Krik: You heard me give general order 24.
Kirk: In two hours,
Kirk: the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7.
First Councilman: Planetary Defense System,
First Councilman: open fire on the Enterprise!
Technician: I'm sorry, Councilman.
Technician: The target has moved out of range.
First Councilman: You wouldn't do this.
First Councilman: Hundreds of millions of people.
Kirk: I didn't start it, Councilman...
Kirk: but I'm liable to finish it.

Then later.

Scotty: This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise.
Scotty: All cities and installations on Eminiar 7
Scotty: have been located, identified,
Scotty: and fed into our fire control system.
Scotty: In 1 hour and 45 minutes,
Scotty: the entire inhabited surface of your planet
Scotty: will be destroyed.
Scotty: You have that long to surrender your hostages.

Obviously the order exists because Scotty understands what it is just from Kirk saying it (although it could be a real fake order I suppose but there is no indication of this).

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-06-19 11:17pm

Yeah! This is why Kirk kicks so much ass! If only we had a general order for obliterating crappy spin off shows...

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-19 11:30pm

Superman wrote:Yeah! This is why Kirk kicks so much ass! If only we had a general order for obliterating crappy spin off shows...

Its called really bad Nealsons and negative profit.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-06-19 11:33pm

No doubt in the FedLite (AKA TNG --->) some scumbag fed lawyer type deleted GO 24 from the books.......

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-06-19 11:49pm

It COULD have been just a bluff. It's not like that would have been unprecedented for Kirk. I have no doubt the E-Nil could have flattened cities and destroyed military installations, but it sounds to me like Scotty was exaggerating just a bit to get the results he wanted.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-20 04:25am

The dialogue at the end of the episode when they're all safely back on the bridge gives no indication that it was a bluff. If it was a bluff, you'd expect someone to mention it, a la Corbomite Manouvre. IIRC all that is said is something along the lines of 'you were taking a great risk there Captain'.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-06-20 01:37pm

I'm sure the order existed and the E-nil was capable of destroying cities, but given observed limits on Federation power generation and weapons technology, I simply don't believe the Enterprise or any other Federation starship is or was capable of depopulating an entire planet in any kind of reasonable timeframe, if at all.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-20 02:11pm

Could be that everyone on that planet was limited to living in the larger cities so that they could be recalled easier for faster disentegration. With that in mind it would be feasible for the Ent-Nil to kill all life on the planet.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-20 02:23pm

The fact that it targets cities precludes it being similar to a BDZ, where doing that would be unneccsery.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2003-06-20 04:30pm

NecronLord wrote:The fact that it targets cities precludes it being similar to a BDZ, where doing that would be unneccsery.

But then again I would expect a ship carrying out a BDZ to target high priority/hardened targets first, just in case a counter-attack was staged and the ship driven off before it had time to finish.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-20 04:40pm

Soulman wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The fact that it targets cities precludes it being similar to a BDZ, where doing that would be unneccsery.
But then again I would expect a ship carrying out a BDZ to target high priority/hardened targets first, just in case a counter-attack was staged and the ship driven off before it had time to finish.

Nope. They targeted cities, not defence installations.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-20 05:01pm

NecronLord wrote:
Soulman wrote: But then again I would expect a ship carrying out a BDZ to target high priority/hardened targets first, just in case a counter-attack was staged and the ship driven off before it had time to finish.
Nope. They targeted cities, not defence installations.

Scotty: All cities and installations on Eminiar 7
Scotty: have been located, identified,

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-20 05:07pm

TheDarkling wrote: Scotty: All cities and installations on Eminiar 7
Scotty: have been located, identified,

Oh for fuck's sake, don't nitpick. You know full well that I meant if it had the firepower to destroy the planet's crust they would only target the defence systems first and then just slag it however the geology seems most advantageous.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-20 07:19pm

NecronLord wrote:
TheDarkling wrote: Scotty: All cities and installations on Eminiar 7
Scotty: have been located, identified,
Oh for fuck's sake, don't nitpick. You know full well that I meant if it had the firepower to destroy the planet's crust they would only target the defence systems first and then just slag it however the geology seems most advantageous.

It seems perfectly reasonable to go after high pop areas and defences first and then just mop up everything else at leisure (although I'm not sure where the idea of destroying the crust comes from).

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