1421, The Year China Discovered the World or PseudoHistory?

[Frank Hipper]

There's a book due to be released in paperback this October here in the U.S. called "1421, The Year China Discovered the World". In it, the author is claiming that the famous Chinese Admiral, Zeng He, circumnavigated the world in 1421, including a circumnavigation of Greenland!

China at that time was the undisputed leader in naval architecture, the "Treasure Ships" that Zeng He took on his documented voyages were nearly 300' in length, and carried ten masts. Chinese ships of the time also had refinements such as watertight compartments. Obviously, the technical expertise for such a voyage isn't really in doubt.

What I doubt is the motive, and most importantly, the evidence.

On his known trips, Zeng He's mission was to awe the provincial rulers along the route, collect tribute to the Emperor, and bring it home.

Voyages of exploration don't fit the Chinese character. Not even for this singular Admiral or his somewhat idiosyncratic Emperor.

Here's the website for the book and upcoming documentary. Tell me what you think. Be sure and check out the "evidence" page.

[Gandalf]

At the time did the Chinese even believe the world was round?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Most cultures except for Western European ones believed the world was round.

Pythagoras himself estimated the circumference of the earth at 22,000 miles.

[Frank Hipper]

At the time did the Chinese even believe the world was round?

I don't know!
This guy is focusing on the area around Frasier Island and Tin Can Bay in Australia, familiar with them?

[Gandalf]

Most cultures except for Western European ones believed the world was round.

Pythagoras himself estimated the circumference of the earth at 22,000 miles.

Wow, how close is that to the actual number?

[Sea Skimmer]

The very fact that Zeng's voyages where well documented is powerful ammo against this. Sailing around Greenland is absurd, the northern half the island is locked into the arctic pack ice even in summer.

The Polynesians and West Africans may very well have reached the new world long before the Vikings. But the Chinese? I highly doubt it. Certainly this person is full of crap. If they'd argued simply that they reached the coast of the Americas it might be worth my time to visit the site.

[Frank Hipper]

Wow, how close is that to the actual number?

The actual number is about 25,000, so all things considered, its pretty damned close.

[Sea Skimmer]

Most cultures except for Western European ones believed the world was round.

Pythagoras himself estimated the circumference of the earth at 22,000 miles.

Wow, how close is that to the actual number?

The circumference of the earth is 24,901.55 miles at the equator

[Frank Hipper]

The very fact that Zeng's voyages where well documented is powerful ammo against this. Sailing around Greenland is absurd, the northern half the island is locked into the arctic pack ice even in summer.

The Polynesians and West Africans may very well have reached the new world long before the Vikings. But the Chinese? I highly doubt it. Certainly this person is full of crap. If they'd argued simply that they reached the coast of the Americas it might be worth my time to visit the site.

But he's pointing to a Chinese urn found in Oregon as evidence, man! How could a Chinese urn have possibly turned up in Oregon?
You of all people should check it out, the author is former RN, I've heard of him before.

[Peregrin Toker]

Voyages of exploration don't fit the Chinese character. Not even for this singular Admiral or his somewhat idiosyncratic Emperor.

Ethnic stereotypes don't make good counterarguments.

Here's the website for the book and upcoming documentary. Tell me what you think. Be sure and check out the "evidence" page.

Hmmm.... he seems rather reluctant to present evidence. One of the marks of the Pseudoscientist.

[Darth Gojira]

China looks plenty cool without claims of global exploration. Let's stick with that.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

But he's pointing to a Chinese urn found in Oregon as evidence, man! How could a Chinese urn have possibly turned up in Oregon?

It floated there. I've been to the Oregon coast before--you can find Japanese glass fishing floats on the beach. The Japanese ships which those are strictly coastal; they get caught in the current and carried the whole way over the pacific and deposited here. Actually, there was once incidence of an entirely Japanese fishing trawler (I think it was in the 30s) being found off the Washington coast, still afloat--carried here by the current (the crew was dead). Hrmm.. Maybe one of Zheng He's ships did reach the pacific coast. It wouldn't have gotten back, though.

Basically, yes, there is a lot of junk on the pacific coast from Asia, and there has been for much earlier than Columbus. It might be curious to speculate if that influenced the native cultures in the area to any extent, but the idea of actual travel and contact? Nada, no evidence.

[SyntaxVorlon]

As I recall, there were chinese precolumbian sailing expeditions. But they were to make trading colonies around the south pacific and indian ocean. And that due to their extreme cost and the fact that they brought in foreign influence, the nobility blamed them for the civil and economic strife of the day and eventually their ports in Africa, India, and elsewhere were shut down.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Strange, I didn't see this book in the bookstores.

Anyway, there is a group in Taiwan focused on the studies of Zheng, they wrote an English criticism on the subject, forget the Big5 characters, the criticism is at the bottom of the page.

[Perinquus]

Most cultures except for Western European ones believed the world was round.

Pythagoras himself estimated the circumference of the earth at 22,000 miles.

Actually most Europeans with any kind of an education believed it too. It was only the uneducated classes, peasants, commoners, etc. who subscribed to the superstition that the world was flat, and you could sail off the edge. Most Europeans with any sort of education got their notions of geography from ancient Greek and Roman sources (which indicated a globe), along with some Arabic texts, and then to that was added the information brought back by more recent explorers like Prince Henry the Navigator, et al. Columbus himself expected to reach Asia because he believed the estimate of the earth's size given by the second century A.D. Greek astronomer Ptolemy. I forget what Ptolemy's estimate of the earth's size was, but he had no idea of the existence of North and South America, and his estimate was of a smaller globe, where there were no continents blocking a western sea route to Asia.

[Stravo]

Voyages of exploration don't fit the Chinese character. Not even for this singular Admiral or his somewhat idiosyncratic Emperor.

Ethnic stereotypes don't make good counterarguments.

It is a given that the Chinese Empire and its culture were very insular for long strecthes of time. There were moments of exapnsion, mostly landbased expansion inward not out to sea.

[Peregrin Toker]

Voyages of exploration don't fit the Chinese character. Not even for this singular Admiral or his somewhat idiosyncratic Emperor.

Ethnic stereotypes don't make good counterarguments.

It is a given that the Chinese Empire and its culture were very insular for long strecthes of time. There were moments of exapnsion, mostly landbased expansion inward not out to sea.

But you speak about "the chinese character" as if chinese ancestry automatically makes you insular and isolationistic.

[Stravo]

Ethnic stereotypes don't make good counterarguments.

It is a given that the Chinese Empire and its culture were very insular for long strecthes of time. There were moments of exapnsion, mostly landbased expansion inward not out to sea.

But you speak about "the chinese character" as if chinese ancestry automatically makes you insular and isolationistic.

It's not a racist term what do you prefer be used, central asian empire? It's the same thing as saying that the Roman Empire was militaristic and aggressive. No one is saying something racial against the Romans.

[Dark Hellion]

He's speaking of the ancient chinese, you don't have to get all PC about it. It is a fact that the ancient chinese were rather isolationist in their policies. Just live with it.

[HemlockGrey]

Lies! All lies! I clearly chose 'Outward Expansion'! And I paid for it with fifty years of rebel blood!

[Perinquus]

Ethnic stereotypes don't make good counterarguments.

It is a given that the Chinese Empire and its culture were very insular for long strecthes of time. There were moments of exapnsion, mostly landbased expansion inward not out to sea.

But you speak about "the chinese character" as if chinese ancestry automatically makes you insular and isolationistic.

Do not let modern politically correct notions blind you to the fact that cultures do have characteristics. It's not racial. It is merely that people get to doing things certain ways, and they adopt certain worldviews. When these worldviews are reinforced constantly by everyone around you, a certain social intertia develops. This is even more so in cultures like that of China in the period we are discussing, when the emperor set the fashions and everyone followed him. Voices of dissent were not allowed. As a result of many factors, Chinese culture simply was insular, inward looking, xenophobic, and truth be told, quite arrogant.

The first globe presented to the Chinese emperor by Western Europeans created something of a diplomatic incident because it did not depict China as the center of the world. The Chinese had long regarded their land as "The Middle Kingdom", and their maps showed all other lands around it. They were not pleased to see how little of the globe their lands actually covered.

There is an interesting letter from the Chinese Emperor Ch'ien Lung to England's George III. It was written in response to a personal letter from the king to the emperor requesting permission to post a representative to the imperial court and allow the expansion of trade with China which, for all foreign countries, could only be conducted under strict regulation at the southern port of Canton. Here is a link to the whole letter:

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob41.html

Here are a couple of interesting passages from the letter:

Our dynasty's majestic virtue has penetrated unto every country under heaven, and kings of all nations have offered their costly tribute by land and sea. As your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures.

You, O King, from afar have yearned after the blessings of our civilization, and in your eagerness to come into touch with our converting influence have sent an Embassy across the sea bearing a memorial. I have already taken note of your respectful spirit of submission, have treated your mission with extreme favor and loaded it with gifts, besides issuing a mandate to you, O King, and honoring you with the bestowal of valuable presents. Thus has my indulgence been manifested.

Hitherto, all European nations, including your own country's barbarian merchants, have carried on their trade with Our Celestial Empire at Canton. Such has been the procedure for many years, although Our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its own borders. There was therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce.

My capital is the hub and center about which all quarters of the globe revolve. Its ordinances are most august and its laws are strict in the extreme.

If, after the receipt of this explicit decree, you lightly give ear to the representations of your subordinates and allow your barbarian merchants to proceed to Chekiang and Tientsin, with the object of landing and trading there, the ordinances of my Celestial Empire are strict in the extreme, and the local officials, both civil and military, are bound reverently to obey the law of the land. Should your vessels touch the shore, your merchants will assuredly never be permitted to land or to reside there, but will be subject to instant expulsion. In that event your barbarian merchants will have had a long journey for nothing. Do not say that you were not warned in due time! Tremblingly obey and show no negligence!

The letter, despite the diplomatic language, really is arrogant and condescending in the extreme. But at the time it truly did represent the attitude of the Chinese emperor, his court, and the nobility. They felt themsleves to be the masters of the earth, the greatest and noblest people in the world. Nothing other nations had or could produce was of the slightest interest to them. This attitude took root in Chinese culture, and the roots grew deep. This attitude prevailed for centuries, and it was one of the main reasons why exploration was out of character for the Chinese - their culture became so inward looking and arrogant, and so accustomed to regarding the rest of the world as inferior barbarians, that they simply had no interest in learning about other peoples and places.

This smug and arrogant complacency was to cost them dear, for their belief that they had nothing to learn - least of all from these foreign barbarians - meant that they didn't deign to notice what a technological lead the nations of the West were getting on them. It would take their humiliation in the Opium Wars, half a century after this letter was written, to make them face up to that fact. And it was partly because of British outrage over the arrogance and indifference to diplomatic niceties of the Son of Heaven that the British attitude toward China hardened as it did, and led them to play their part on instigating the Opium Wars.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Most cultures except for Western European ones believed the world was round.

Pythagoras himself estimated the circumference of the earth at 22,000 miles.

Wow, how close is that to the actual number?

Its funny. Over the centuries, many different cultures have estimated the circumference of the earth, based on deviation of shadows using the sun as a fixed point. The greeks got the closest.

You know who was farthest off? COLUMBUS.

He took pythagoras' theories and did the calculations himself, and came up with about 18,000 miles.

Another fun fact, Greek scholars theorized that Antarctica must exist to at the south pole to balance out the fact that most continents were in the northern hemisphere.

edit: Also, the Chinese culture didn't become insular until about 1450 with a new emperor. They stopped the treasure fleets. If they hadn't, China would have likely become a colonial power in Australia and east Africa, maybe even western North America.

"China town" would have a whole different meaning.

[Ironbeard]

Pythagoras? I thought the measure-the-earth thing was attributed to Erastothenes

[CaptainChewbacca]

Now that you mention it, that name rings a bell. Maybe they did it separately, but I'm positive pythagoras did it, because Columbus used his notes for his attempt.

[Peregrin Toker]

It's not a racist term what do you prefer be used, central asian empire? It's the same thing as saying that the Roman Empire was militaristic and aggressive. No one is saying something racial against the Romans.

No one ever implied that Roman citizenship automatically made you militaristic.