About those 2 megatons ...

[Rathark]

It has been established as a cannon fact that a fraction of 2 MT was enough to destroy the Black Star. However, by observing onscreen evidence, B5Tech.com have calculated the main cannons on an Omega (introduced after the E/M War) to have a destructive potential of 1 MT per second under normal circumstances. Furthermore, one of these Destroyers - in "Severed Dreams" - is seen taking multiple shots from B5's main cannon, shots that are supposedly 3 MT each judging by the amount of metal that is "vaporized". These figures are based upon the assumption that the metal used for Earthforce hulls is 20 * as strong as iron. While this may seem extravagant, it is given some credibility by their calculations for the power of Shadow lasers based upon the effects on natural planetary crust - 250 MT / second, a quite believeable 2 orders of magnitude above Earthforce weaponry (and therefore Narn weaponry, considering that 3 of their heavy cruisers could "injure" a Battlecrab after some time and effort).

There are two possible ways to rationalize this apparent contradiction:

1. The B5Tech figures are wrong.

2. The destructive effects of a coherent beam - depending mostly on heat - are totally different to the destructive effects of a blastwave in which a shell of matter (debris from the asteroid?) expands in all directions. I know this has already been raised within threads discussing HTLs. Furthermore, one can assume that missiles and kinetic energy weapons are more easily intercepted in the B5 universe, hence their use in primarily stealth tactics or one-sided large-scale operations (ie Centauri's bombardment of Narn).

Sorry if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I was wondering whether Theory 2 is consistent with B5 canon.

[Master of Ossus]

Problem 2 only clashes with B5 canon to the extent that it disagrees with real life. A coherent beam should not do more damage than a large blast, assuming the same yield, but the damage that it does do will be more concentrated. B5tech is wrong.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, B5tech is also shown to be wrong about the firepower of B5 ships and technology by Ivonova's threatening a ship with a piddly 200MW pulse cannon, or the starfury's 40MW cannons, and the Narn ships damaged the BC without taking much time to do it, but they did have to concentrate their fire and I assume that took time to set up, given the known lack of maneuverability of Narn ships.

[Rathark]

Incidentally, B5tech is also shown to be wrong about the firepower of B5 ships and technology by Ivonova's threatening a ship with a piddly 200MW pulse cannon,

It sounds like a very practical and maneuverable anti-fighter cannon. 200MW is nothing to be sneezed at as far as this task is concerned. The anti-warship cannons would be another matter entirely.

[Rathark]

Problem 2 only clashes with B5 canon to the extent that it disagrees with real life. A coherent beam should not do more damage than a large blast, assuming the same yield, but the damage that it does do will be more concentrated. B5tech is wrong.

It is just concieveable that the warship hulls in B5 - from Earthforce up to the Minbari - is designed to minimize the structural damage caused by the intense, concentrated heat of EM and plasma weapons. The only way to rationalize this is to assume that such "heat" weapons are the most commonly used in space warfare by younger races, so safegaurds against such weaponry are the primary objective of warship hull design. Even Earthforce have cannons specifically designed to intercept projectiles, so use of missiles is probably reduced to those that are exceptionally small and fast, or overwhelming in quantity.

An appropriate analogy would be the difference between asbestos suits and teflon suits. Under certain circumstances, one would be more practical and feasible than the other.

While I accept that B5tech may be wrong, I was wondering about the scientific validity of their claims that so much matter was vaporized in the scenes they analyze.

[Mr Bean]

B5Tech has been proven wrong on quite a few points so I would not trust anything there on face value

But the factor remains the same
2 Mega-tons took down a White-Star

[Enlightenment]

These figures are based upon the assumption that the metal used for Earthforce hulls is 20 * as strong as iron.

This is ridiculous. Vaporization energies are determined by latent and specific heat properties, not by strength. If EA use something resembling steel hulls, then B5Tech's estimates are too high by a factor of 20.

But the factor remains the same
2 Mega-tons took down a White-Star

Not a White Star, a Sharlin. The circumstances of the event are such that by all apperances Sharlins are about as resiliant as cardboard boxes wrapped in a few layers of aluminium foil.

[LordChaos]

1 - B5tech's hull material numbers were pulled from his ass. There's no canon reason to belive that EA built it's ships using a metal who's thermal properties were 20 times that of iron.

2 - While the Black Star was destroyed by 2 2mt explosions, given everything from B5, I am of the opinion that she provided most of the energy for her own distruction, alla a "magazine hit" similar to the Hood and Arrazonia in WWII. Yes, the cause of the explosion is enemy fire, but all it did was set off the ships own stores (In the Dark Star's example, possibly fuel?)

[Master of Ossus]

1 - B5tech's hull material numbers were pulled from his ass. There's no canon reason to belive that EA built it's ships using a metal who's thermal properties were 20 times that of iron.

2 - While the Black Star was destroyed by 2 2mt explosions, given everything from B5, I am of the opinion that she provided most of the energy for her own distruction, alla a "magazine hit" similar to the Hood and Arrazonia in WWII. Yes, the cause of the explosion is enemy fire, but all it did was set off the ships own stores (In the Dark Star's example, possibly fuel?)

Problem with the theory is that the 2 MT blasts would still have needed to have over-stressed the hull in several areas. Just before the second weapon goes off, you can see that the Black Star was already seriously damaged by the first blast. Sheridan also was able to predict the Black Star's destruction with his statement, "See you in Hell." Clearly it was the destructive force of the weapons themselves that served to rip apart the Black Star.

[Dead on Arrival]

Problem with the theory is that the 2 MT blasts would still have needed to have over-stressed the hull in several areas. Just before the second weapon goes off, you can see that the Black Star was already seriously damaged by the first blast. Sheridan also was able to predict the Black Star's destruction with his statement, "See you in Hell." Clearly it was the destructive force of the weapons themselves that served to rip apart the Black Star.

Frame 1 after detonation - no visible change to Black Star
.
.
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~ Frame 30 (full second or more) - visible change to outer surface of Black Star after a shockwave capable of upsetting asteroids for several dozen km in radius of the point of detonation.

The Black Star was charged to fire, the damage was localized to small sections of the ship, whatever Londo claims Sheridan said in a story to children is hardly evidence of anything, and the Black Star exploded internally AFTER the second shockwave passed. Draw your own conclusions...

[SirNitram]

Looks like the 'shockwave'(Really, too many sci-fis have shockwaves in a vacuum) did damage to the fin of the Black Star, which somehow caused the reactor to nuke itself into oblivion. This is probably linked to the fact weapons were armed.

This suggests the Black Star was very fragile indeed, if it was that far from the center of the blast and was caused to detonate itself.

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, there is another problem with the theory that B5 hulls have 20 times the resistance to weapons fire as iron: where does all that eneryg go? Remember that if a hit from B5's weapons was 3MT, and one ship took multiple hits from that weapon, then all of that energy (now in the form of heat), must go SOMEWHERE in the ship. The ship would rapidly become unusable because it would heat up to the point where people inside of it could no longer survive. With a ship that size, and with a crew complement as big as they have, there is simply not that much room that can be used for anything except living quarters, and all of that energy would have to, eventually, be passed on to the rest of the ship from the particular section of hull that was hit by the weapon. The ship simply cannot have taken that much energy that quickly.

[Patrick Degan]

Frame 1 after detonation - no visible change to Black Star

If you recall, several seconds afterward, the Black Star was heeling to port after the first blast, and it was clear that the starboard weapons' fin had been blown off. Plasma was trailing from the breached section.

Frame 30 (full second or more) - visible change to outer surface of Black Star after a shockwave capable of upsetting asteroids for several dozen km in radius of the point of detonation.

It is here that it is commonly speculated that one or more small asteroids were impelled at great velocity into the Black Star's hull, quite possibly damaging her jump engines and reactors, or that the previous damage inflicted on the ship in one way or another resulted in the detonation of the ship's arsenal which subsequently destroyed her.

The Black Star was charged to fire, the damage was localized to small sections of the ship...and the Black Star exploded internally AFTER the second shockwave passed.

Cumulative damage appears to be the culprit in the ship's death. Assuming that the Minbari have optimised their starship architecture to provide the best protection against incoming energy assault, it would not be plausible that the ship was mounting very dense external armour; all the more so since all that additional mass would hinder fuel efficency. It is likely that the hull armour is reflective and is used in combination with some sort of EM defence on the surface to protect the ship but is itself made of a light-massed composite material with high thermal resistance but which would be easily penetrated by high-velocity debris.

[Master of Ossus]

It would have to have been a pretty small asteroid. There's no sign of it, in fact.

On the other hand, it would kind of make sense. That and the EA starfury ramming straight through a Sharlin fin seem to indicate that the Sharlin is not designed for a KE impact, but it also appears that the first explosion did significant damage to the ship, and that Sheridan knew that he was going to kill the Minbari, at that point.

[Crossover_Maniac]

It would have to have been a pretty small asteroid. There's no sign of it, in fact.

On the other hand, it would kind of make sense. That and the EA starfury ramming straight through a Sharlin fin seem to indicate that the Sharlin is not designed for a KE impact, but it also appears that the first explosion did significant damage to the ship, and that Sheridan knew that he was going to kill the Minbari, at that point.

I always thought the Black Star was destroyed by the debris coming from the asteroid. Note that Sheridon planted the nuke on a asteroid not only to conceal it, but also to turn it into fragmentation grenade. IOW: the Sharlin is more vulerable to physical impacts (low energy-high moment) than energy weapons (high energy-low moment).