Star Trek federation clearly wins

sar2 · Post by **sar2** » 2003-06-20 06:15pm

This is my first post, my first day visiting this site and reading it. I have not read many posts either. I agree that the Empire from Star Wars has more fire power but it just could not beat the Star Trek Federation. The Empire has too many inept soldiers.

The other thing that has to be realized is that the Empire is the 'villain' so they are designed with flaws so they can be defeated. The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners. What if the rebels from Star Wars battled the villains from Star Trek?

Now if the Federation were fighting the rebels (Luke, Han and etc...) then
it is harder to say who would win. The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies)
The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

When any two armies battle each has strength (number of soldiers, firepower, territory, etc...) , intelligence ( the skills of the leaders and soliders), and luck. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck. This is why the ewoks defeated them! Now if you assign equal strength, intelligence and luck to the Empire and the Federation then they will never beat each other. If you use the abilities from the movie(s) and tv show(s) then there is no way the Empire could beat the Federation, especially the TNG. (They might not even be able to defeat Kirk's Federation) The Empire lacks the intelligence (and since they are the villain, they lack the luck) to defeat the Federation which has more than enough intelligence and luck.

There is more than enough examples in each movie to show this. Just watch the movies and you will see!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-20 06:18pm

Okay...did you UNDERSTAND what you read?

If not...I'll just let the natives either educate or ream you...depending on who gets you first.

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-06-20 06:21pm

here we go

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-06-20 06:23pm

Sum total of aurgments presented

1. Despite the roughly twenty million to one advantage the Empire enjoys in planets, men and material, because The Empire has too many inept soldiers. They would obviously lose

2.
The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners.

3.The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies)
The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

*ROTFLMAO(We still need a ROTFLMAO smiley)

4. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck
One out of three an't bad(Given, the Empire's luck at points has sucked)

I can't even finish this I'm laughing to hard, oh well
Who wants to do the point by point rip apart?

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-06-20 06:27pm

sar2 wrote:-snip-

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-06-20 06:31pm

Seriously sar2, i suggest that you read the whole site again before you become a crispy critter (some of the other members aren't so nice).

BTW balrog great ROTFL smiley

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-06-20 06:32pm

Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

The Indians should still have all their land because they were the good guys and the cowboys were the bad guys.

Do you seriously see how fucked up this scenario is. A flotilla of Stardestroyers could take the entire AQ and probably the galaxy let alone the entire Imperial warmachine and the best you can come up with is Trek are the good guys? Since when are Communists good guys by the by?

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-06-20 06:50pm

Ahh, haven't done this in a while...

sar2 wrote:This is my first post, my first day visiting this site and reading it. I have not read many posts either.

Your first failure.

I agree that the Empire from Star Wars has more fire power but it just could not beat the Star Trek Federation.

And industrial capacity, and strategic mobility, and defensive capacity...

The Empire has too many inept soldiers.

Support your assertion. Provide evidence that any ineptitude on the part of the Empire is widespread and greater than any ineptitude on the part of the Federation.

The other thing that has to be realized is that the Empire is the 'villain' so they are designed with flaws so they can be defeated. The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners. What if the rebels from Star Wars battled the villains from Star Trek?

Literary convention does not make a valid argument. If the Rebels from SW battled the villians of ST they would win or lose on their own merits, not because they are the good guys.

Now if the Federation were fighting the rebels (Luke, Han and etc...) then
it is harder to say who would win. The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies)
The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

The Rebels use the same technology as the Empire, only in lesser numbers. They were able to field a fleet in ROTJ which was near to the equal of Death Squadron, which itself was vastly more powerful than anything less than thousands of Federation ships.

When any two armies battle each has strength (number of soldiers, firepower, territory, etc...) , intelligence ( the skills of the leaders and soliders), and luck. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck. This is why the ewoks defeated them!

The Ewoks defeated the Imperials on Endor through overwhelming numbers, stealth, familiarity with the ground and overconfidence in their opponents, and even then they were taking heavy casualties and would have lost had Chewbacca not captured an AT-ST and had the officers inside the complex simply kept the doors shut.

Now if you assign equal strength, intelligence and luck to the Empire and the Federation then they will never beat each other.

Of course not, since you are artificially limiting the Empire.

If you use the abilities from the movie(s) and tv show(s) then there is no way the Empire could beat the Federation, especially the TNG. (They might not even be able to defeat Kirk's Federation) The Empire lacks the intelligence (and since they are the villain, they lack the luck) to defeat the Federation which has more than enough intelligence and luck.

Give reasons why they could not defeat the Federation without appealing to literary conventions.

There is more than enough examples in each movie to show this. Just watch the movies and you will see!

We're not going to do your work for you.

Get back to us after you've read the main site. Start with this.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2003-06-20 06:55pm

Flame on.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-20 06:57pm

This has been said before, but:

READ THE GOD-DAMN FUCKING SITE!!!!

And this time turn your brain on.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-20 07:06pm

I have a proposal to make, guys. From now on, don't flame somebody until they've posted their second idiotic argument. Everybody can make a mistake once.

Darth Phoenix · Post by **Darth Phoenix** » 2003-06-20 07:11pm

Here we go again...

sar2 wrote:This is my first post, my first day visiting this site and reading it. I have not read many posts either. I agree that the Empire from Star Wars has more fire power but it just could not beat the Star Trek Federation. The Empire has too many inept soldiers.

Not only more firepower but more mobility, more resources and greater industrial base among other things...
Empire has many inept soldiers? Do you have any proof of it?

The other thing that has to be realized is that the Empire is the 'villain' so they are designed with flaws so they can be defeated. The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners. What if the rebels from Star Wars battled the villains from Star Trek?

Just because they are the hero that doesn't meam that victory is assured.
Watch ESB and wait for EpIII to see if the Heroes always win.

Now if the Federation were fighting the rebels (Luke, Han and etc...) then
it is harder to say who would win. The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies)
The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

A single Calamari cruiser could trash the Federation much less the entire fleet.
The force is pretty much not an issue here because only Luke and Leia knows how to use it.

When any two armies battle each has strength (number of soldiers, firepower, territory, etc...) , intelligence ( the skills of the leaders and soliders), and luck. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck. This is why the ewoks defeated them!

The Ewoks won because on numbers, stealth and the arrogance of the Emporer.
Don't forget that the rebel commands and the capture of the AT-ST by Chewie also help.

Now if you assign equal strength, intelligence and luck to the Empire and the Federation then they will never beat each other. If you use the abilities from the movie(s) and tv show(s) then there is no way the Empire could beat the Federation, especially the TNG. (They might not even be able to defeat Kirk's Federation) The Empire lacks the intelligence (and since they are the villain, they lack the luck) to defeat the Federation which has more than enough intelligence and luck.

If you give them equal strenght them you are weaking the Empire.
A single Imperial fleet could conquer the AQ...

There is more than enough examples in each movie to show this. Just watch the movies and you will see!

From what you wrote it doesn't seem you've actually watched the movies...

Have you actually read the site??

Darth Phoenix · Post by **Darth Phoenix** » 2003-06-20 07:12pm

Damn Xalev you got here first?

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-06-20 07:12pm

I think once is enough.

I don't think this guy needs to reply to two or more people about the same thing. ~Jason

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-06-20 07:17pm

I think this is just a joke. OK the jig is up. Who are you.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-20 07:19pm

Sadly IP check reveals he isn't a sock puppet.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-20 07:20pm

Howedar wrote:I have a proposal to make, guys. From now on, don't flame somebody until they've posted their second idiotic argument. Everybody can make a mistake once.

Oh, I haven't flamed him.

Yet.

sar2 · Post by **sar2** » 2003-06-20 07:25pm

Stravo wrote:Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

Do you seriously see how fucked up this scenario is. A flotilla of Stardestroyers could take the entire AQ and probably the galaxy let alone the entire Imperial warmachine and the best you can come up with is Trek are the good guys? Since when are Communists good guys by the by?

I am amazed at how fast my post was replied to! I have been reading more and more from this site and it appears to be an anti-StarTrek site! Now I see it really does not matter what my opinion is. You cannot compare the French fighting the Nazis with the Federation fighting the Empire. In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

Is the main reason for this site is to bash Star Trek? Why not just say that from the start? The Empire has more fire power than the Federation only because Lucas wrote that way. If the Federation were all powerful (like you believe the Empire to be), then there would be no conflict in the series and the show would become boring.

I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two. They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented! (It would make more sense for the 'heros' of the stories to battle each other) This argument is like saying 'who would win in a battle between Batman and Captain America?'. There is no way to really to truly decide who would win. You would have to have some writter come up with the story and then he decides.

For the imaginary battle of the Empire and the Federation, you would have to ask Lucas and dig up Roddenberry and let them decide who wins. You are just taking bits and pieces from the movies and tv shows and deciding for yourself who wins. What about the information in the Star Trek universe and Star Wars universe that you don't see? For example, who are Captain Kirk's parents? They exist, but they are not on the show. How do you know that his parents are not Q? You can argue anything!
They are not even in the same 'universe'! In the Star Wars universe, there is a magic called the 'Force', Jedis and Death Stars, and in the Star Trek universe, they have telepathy, time travel, teleportation, god-like beings called Q and more. Also, the laws of physics are different in each universe! So how do you explain this? How can they truly have an honest battle? They can't! If you want them to fight, you have to first put them in a 'neutral universe' then you would have to make some changes to both sides in order for them to exist together (also Star Trek in further in the future than Star Wars, which is supposed to be a 'long time ago in a galaxy far...blah blah') then you would have to explain the reason they are fighting. (They are not even in the same galaxy for all you know!) You have to put the Empire and the Federation in the 'neutral universe', create rules for this universe, and give them the abilities and equipment that is seen in the movies and tv shows. Even after doing all this, there is still no way of telling who would actually win!

The only thing I can agree on is that from the evidence of the movies, it appears that the Empire has more fire power than the Federation. (it appears so, but only Lucas and Roddenberry know for sure) I do not know if the Empire could defeat the Federation because I do not have enough information to come to that conclusion.

I enjoyed Star Wars and I enjoyed Star Trek and I will continue to enjoy both. I have my opinion and so does everyone else. I have spent too much time already writing about this silly argument!

Good night everyone.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-06-20 07:36pm

All i can say is

Seriously tough, im too drunk and too tired to start answering with any in-depth rebuttals which would propably result in massive flaming anyways.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-20 07:37pm

Anyone want to play count the fallacies?

Seriously when Howedar asked for a second post...he was meaning perhaps you would show the ability to have read the site and understand what Mike wrote and what others have perhaps and come to your own conclusion based upon a certain Suspension of Disbelief.

I will await to see if make another reply, if not you're basically spamming.

Darth Phoenix · Post by **Darth Phoenix** » 2003-06-20 07:41pm

sar2 wrote:
Stravo wrote:Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

Do you seriously see how fucked up this scenario is. A flotilla of Stardestroyers could take the entire AQ and probably the galaxy let alone the entire Imperial warmachine and the best you can come up with is Trek are the good guys? Since when are Communists good guys by the by?
*Snip*

I'll let someone with more patience take care of this...

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-20 07:46pm

illogical trektard wrote:
Stravo wrote:Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

Do you seriously see how fucked up this scenario is. A flotilla of Stardestroyers could take the entire AQ and probably the galaxy let alone the entire Imperial warmachine and the best you can come up with is Trek are the good guys? Since when are Communists good guys by the by?
I am amazed at how fast my post was replied to! I have been reading more and more from this site and it appears to be an anti-StarTrek site!

That's because we are pragmatic. Star Trek would get its ass whooped.

illogical trektard wrote: Now I see it really does not matter what my opinion is. You cannot compare the French fighting the Nazis with the Federation fighting the Empire.

Yes, you can. The federations situation is even more dire.

illogical trektard wrote: In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

When Episode III comes out, I suggest you watch it.

illogical trektard wrote:Is the main reason for this site is to bash Star Trek? Why not just say that from the start?

No, the reason is to show how Star Wars would defeat Star Trek[/quote]

illogical trektard wrote:The Empire has more fire power than the Federation only because Lucas wrote that way. If the Federation were all powerful (like you believe the Empire to be), then there would be no conflict in the series and the show would become boring.

The Empire is not all powerful. It is just magnitudes MORE powerful. And note that SW is not boring.

illogical trektard wrote:I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two. They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented!

By rabid trektards like yourself.

illogical trektard wrote: (It would make more sense for the 'heros' of the stories to battle each other) This argument is like saying 'who would win in a battle between Batman and Captain America?'. There is no way to really to truly decide who would win. You would have to have some writter come up with the story and then he decides.

THere are things called facts, and hobbies, and math, and...

illogical trektard wrote:For the imaginary battle of the Empire and the Federation, you would have to ask Lucas and dig up Roddenberry and let them decide who wins. You are just taking bits and pieces from the movies and tv shows and deciding for yourself who wins. What about the information in the Star Trek universe and Star Wars universe that you don't see? For example, who are Captain Kirk's parents? They exist, but they are not on the show. How do you know that his parents are not Q? You can argue anything!

Yes we can. That is the wonder of having a brain. We derive figures from canon films and TV shows.

illogical trektard wrote:They are not even in the same 'universe'!

Prove it.

illogical trektard wrote: In the Star Wars universe, there is a magic called the 'Force', Jedis and Death Stars, and in the Star Trek universe, they have telepathy, time travel, teleportation, god-like beings called Q and more.

So?

illogical trektard wrote: Also, the laws of physics are different in each universe! So how do you explain this? How can they truly have an honest battle? They can't! If you want them to fight, you have to first put them in a 'neutral universe' then you would have to make some changes to both sides in order for them to exist together (also Star Trek in further in the future than Star Wars, which is supposed to be a 'long time ago in a galaxy far...blah blah') then you would have to explain the reason they are fighting. (They are not even in the same galaxy for all you know!) You have to put the Empire and the Federation in the 'neutral universe', create rules for this universe, and give them the abilities and equipment that is seen in the movies and tv shows. Even after doing all this, there is still no way of telling who would actually win!

I can explain it. The laws of physics are NOT different.

illogical trektard wrote:The only thing I can agree on is that from the evidence of the movies, it appears that the Empire has more fire power than the Federation. (it appears so, but only Lucas and Roddenberry know for sure) I do not know if the Empire could defeat the Federation because I do not have enough information to come to that conclusion.

But we do.

illogical trektard wrote:I enjoyed Star Wars and I enjoyed Star Trek and I will continue to enjoy both. I have my opinion and so does everyone else. I have spent too much time already writing about this silly argument!

Well, then in that case leave.

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-06-20 07:54pm

sar2 wrote:
Stravo wrote:Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

Do you seriously see how fucked up this scenario is. A flotilla of Stardestroyers could take the entire AQ and probably the galaxy let alone the entire Imperial warmachine and the best you can come up with is Trek are the good guys? Since when are Communists good guys by the by?
SNIP

Ok i will give you the short version.... This an anti-moron site not and anti-trek site. If it was anti-trek we wouldn't have a forum for it. We wouldn't have trekkies on this forum if it was anti-trek, we would ban them. There are ways for seeing who would win. The Wong was kind enough to do all the Math for it so don't waste our time telling us there is no way to tell. It is not an opinion.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-06-20 08:05pm

sar2 wrote: I am amazed at how fast my post was replied to! I have been reading more and more from this site and it appears to be an anti-StarTrek site! Now I see it really does not matter what my opinion is.

It is not an anti-Trek site. No amount of wishing on your part will change this.

You cannot compare the French fighting the Nazis with the Federation fighting the Empire. In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain.

We pretend for the sake of debate that it is real. It's called Suspension of Disbelief.

You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

I hadn't realized the limits of what can and cannot be written were decided by you alone.

Is the main reason for this site is to bash Star Trek? Why not just say that from the start? The Empire has more fire power than the Federation only because Lucas wrote that way. If the Federation were all powerful (like you believe the Empire to be), then there would be no conflict in the series and the show would become boring.

No. No one here believes the Empire to be omnipotent, merely more powerful than the Federation. They are still weaker than plenty of scifi powers.

I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two. They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented! (It would make more sense for the 'heros' of the stories to battle each other) This argument is like saying 'who would win in a battle between Batman and Captain America?'. There is no way to really to truly decide who would win.

What a convenient about-face. First the Federation will win, then they cannot be compared at all?

You would have to have some writter come up with the story and then he decides.

What makes this anonymous writer more qualified than us?

What about the information in the Star Trek universe and Star Wars universe that you don't see? For example, who are Captain Kirk's parents? They exist, but they are not on the show. How do you know that his parents are not Q? You can argue anything!

If we can't see it, it is unquantifiable and might as well be non-existant.

They are not even in the same 'universe'! In the Star Wars universe, there is a magic called the 'Force', Jedis and Death Stars, and in the Star Trek universe, they have telepathy, time travel, teleportation, god-like beings called Q and more. Also, the laws of physics are different in each universe! So how do you explain this? How can they truly have an honest battle? They can't! If you want them to fight, you have to first put them in a 'neutral universe' then you would have to make some changes to both sides in order for them to exist together (also Star Trek in further in the future than Star Wars, which is supposed to be a 'long time ago in a galaxy far...blah blah') then you would have to explain the reason they are fighting. (They are not even in the same galaxy for all you know!) You have to put the Empire and the Federation in the 'neutral universe', create rules for this universe, and give them the abilities and equipment that is seen in the movies and tv shows.

And that is exactly what we do. You would know this if you had payed attention.

Even after doing all this, there is still no way of telling who would actually win!

This method gives us all we need to decide that.

The only thing I can agree on is that from the evidence of the movies, it appears that the Empire has more fire power than the Federation. (it appears so, but only Lucas and Roddenberry know for sure) I do not know if the Empire could defeat the Federation because I do not have enough information to come to that conclusion.

The materials published for both universes along with known, real-life scientific principles gives us all the information we need.

I enjoyed Star Wars and I enjoyed Star Trek and I will continue to enjoy both. I have my opinion and so does everyone else. I have spent too much time already writing about this silly argument!

It is not a matter of opinion. We can place both in an set framework and observe their capabilities, thus coming to an objective conclusion about which is more powerful than the other.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-20 08:18pm

'You can't write fiction and have the bad guys win!'

You're a moron, sir. Go watch The Empire Strikes Back, Attack Of The Clones, or The Phantom Menace. Who won? THE BAD GUYS!

Furthermore, who are you to define who is good and bad? The Federation has a painfully bad history of rights of individuals. The Empire could very easily be a good guy by comparison: It'll return the ability of a normal human to buy things for himself, to travel without government approval, and to do a whole lot of things you can't in the psudeocommunist regime of the Federation.

Finally, the New Republic, weaker than the Empire but good guys, would ass-rape the Federation still.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Star Trek federation clearly wins

Star Trek federation clearly wins

Re: Star Trek federation clearly wins

Re: Star Trek federation clearly wins

Re: Star Trek federation clearly wins