Stravo wrote:
It's not a racist term what do you prefer be used, central asian empire? It's the same thing as saying that the Roman Empire was militaristic and aggressive. No one is saying something racial against the Romans.
No one ever implied that Roman citizenship automatically made you militaristic.
There was a "policy shift" in Imperial china in the mid-15th century. The courtiers won over the emperor and convinced him to stop sending his "treasure fleets" out and to become more insular.
After that, the Chinese WERE insular and a bit xenophobic. Its not a racist thing. Unless you think all chinese are.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
Frank Hipper wrote:Care to show how insularity is NOT a characteristic of Chinese civilisation before and after this period?
Can you make a point as to how I'm stereotyping without regard to to historically proven, documented behavior?
And if it is proven, documented behavior on the part of a nation, does the term stereotype apply?
This is not the first time Mr. Johansen has cried "prejudice!" over commonly known facts. I think his real problem is that you used the word "character", having connotation of referring to individuals. Now, I'm as much for politeness as the next guy, but this political correctness trend is downright ludicrous.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Now that you mention it, that name rings a bell. Maybe they did it separately, but I'm positive pythagoras did it, because Columbus used his notes for his attempt.
I know Pythagoras had the idea that the Earth was circular, but I do not think he actually measured its size. I think both he and Aristotle came to that conclusion by observing lunar eclipses. The earliest I know of were Eratosthenes and later Ptolemy, who gave vastly different answers at first glance, but only because Eratosthenes used the Egyptian atur and called it a stade (the Greek unit) for some unknown reason.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Now that you mention it, that name rings a bell. Maybe they did it separately, but I'm positive pythagoras did it, because Columbus used his notes for his attempt.
I know Pythagoras had the idea that the Earth was circular, but I do not think he actually measured its size. I think both he and Aristotle came to that conclusion by observing lunar eclipses. The earliest I know of were Eratosthenes and later Ptolemy, who gave vastly different answers at first glance, but only because Eratosthenes used the Egyptian atur and called it a stade (the Greek unit) for some unknown reason.
Yeah, I remember Eratoshenes and his stades. Its all been a while since I took historical astronomy, but I just remembered that the original people who estimated the diameter of the earth were the closest, and Columbus' estimate was one of the worst.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Yeah, I remember Eratoshenes and his stades. Its all been a while since I took historical astronomy, but I just remembered that the original people who estimated the diameter of the earth were the closest, and Columbus' estimate was one of the worst.
Indeed. Many scholars have done it with great accuracy over a millenium before Columbus, which is why I cannot comprehend why Columbus's name keeps perpetuating in this context. His great contribution was that he found a good trans-atlantic route, not anything that has to do with the shape of the Earth.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Well, I would say that while many theorized that the earth was round, Columbus PROVED the earth was round. Publically.
Proved? He did nothing of the kind.
What precisely are you referring to?
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
He sailed west and didn't fall off the edge of the world, defying conventional knowledge. Therefore, he "proved" the world was round to the Europeans who thought it was flat.
He also was the first modern european to discover the New World.
Unfortunately, he wasn't very smart. He never went back to San Salvadore, and died thinking he had discovered a new path to India.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
CaptainChewbacca wrote:He sailed west and didn't fall off the edge of the world, defying conventional knowledge. Therefore, he "proved" the world was round to the Europeans who thought it was flat.
How does that prove the Earth is round?
If you want such conditions for "proof", it was not until Magellan's expedition that the Earth was "proven" to be round. But as for myself, the arguments of Eratosthenes, Aristotle, and others are perfectly valid proofs.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:He also was the first modern european to discover the New World.
As I said, I fully believe the discovery of a good trans-atlantic route deserves being called a great contribution. It's just irrelevant in this context.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
CaptainChewbacca wrote:He sailed west and didn't fall off the edge of the world, defying conventional knowledge. Therefore, he "proved" the world was round to the Europeans who thought it was flat.
That's bull. Half a century before Columbus trip the portuguese navigators knew fully well the world was round. They had too, since it's kind of hard to go from Lisbon to India without that information (and do exact charters). Only the many laymen thought it wasn't. In fact, they knew more about it than Columbus did. The reason he was denied ships in our court and went to spain was because the general consensus was that "his" world was too small, and he had the distances incorrect. And that's exactly true. Columbus was a schmck who got lucky. He would have starved to dead if an unknown continent didn't happen to be in the middle of Europe and Asia.
He also was the first modern european to discover the New World.
That's highly debatable. The portuguese demanded an extra slice of the world before the discovery of america, which only makes sense if we account for the fact that it is very easy for them to have sighted Brazil in the India routes.
Anyway, Columbus was an idiot who got lucky.
Unfortunately, he wasn't very smart. He never went back to San Salvadore, and died thinking he had discovered a new path to India.
Colonel Olrik wrote:That's highly debatable. The portuguese demanded an extra slice of the world before the discovery of america, which only makes sense if we account for the fact that it is very easy for them to have sighted Brazil in the India routes.
Isn't Brasil a little off course for the India route? Couldn't Portugese cartographic expertise explain that claim, using the same argument that you used against Colombus' density?
Colonel Olrik wrote:That's highly debatable. The portuguese demanded an extra slice of the world before the discovery of america, which only makes sense if we account for the fact that it is very easy for them to have sighted Brazil in the India routes.
Isn't Brasil a little off course for the India route? Couldn't Portugese cartographic expertise explain that claim, using the same argument that you used against Colombus' density?
It could, but you must only look at the old rout to India to understand how near they got to brazil. They described a very large arc in the atlantic, and in the events of storms they would have had to be blind to not seeing it. Anyway, nowadays everybody agrees that Pedro Alvares Cabral expedition to Brazil was not an accident. The army was sent to a known land to take possession, they didn't get lost while heading for India.
I'm reading this in a quite complete site, but it's in Portuguese.
In the days of old (XIV and XV centuries), we were the ruling FUCKING sea power, and we kicked some serious spanish wannabe navigators ass.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
You know who was farthest off? COLUMBUS.
He took pythagoras' theories and did the calculations himself, and came up with about 18,000 miles.
.
Errr...you do know Columbus fudged his figures to make it more presentable to the King and Queen of Spain, right?
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
Lonestar wrote:Errr...you do know Columbus fudged his figures to make it more presentable to the King and Queen of Spain, right?
But then it would make little sense for him to still claim he discovered a path to the East even after his voyages. They found gold; the voyages were economically justified.
Then again, reputedly he had taken enough food for a whole year of seafaring. Perhaps privately he did expect a much longer voyage than he claimed.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
Could be, but he still died thinking he had found India.
Hey Olrik, what do you know about legends of Portugese sailing vessels ending up in North America and intermarrying with native tribes?
In Kentucky we've got blue-eyed Indians, and their language has a few words in common with Portugese. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I think "Sailing boat" is one of them.
Anything to contribute there?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Could be, but he still died thinking he had found India.
Well...no. That's a myth. You can even look at the Columbus coat of Arms (His great-great etc. grandson is the 20th "Admiral of the Ocean Sea") And see the "new land" on it.
Hey Olrik, what do you know about legends of Portugese sailing vessels ending up in North America and intermarrying with native tribes?
In Kentucky we've got blue-eyed Indians, and their language has a few words in common with Portugese. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I think "Sailing boat" is one of them.
Anything to contribute there?
I think you're thinking of the so-called Welsh Indians, who were discovered in the 1700's hundreds but whose vast repetroire of Cyrmic(sic) mysteriously disappeared when Lewis and Clark visited them less than a hundred years later.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
Lonestar wrote:Well...no. That's a myth. You can even look at the Columbus coat of Arms (His great-great etc. grandson is the 20th "Admiral of the Ocean Sea") And see the "new land" on it.
Oh no, that was added by his descendants. Neither the 1493 original nor the 1502 (or was that 1503?) modification had the "nuevo mundo" ("new world") in it.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
Kuroneko wrote:
Oh no, that was added by his descendants. Neither the 1493 original nor the 1502 (or was that 1503?) modification had the "nuevo mundo" ("new world") in it.
You sure?
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
Hey Olrik, what do you know about legends of Portugese sailing vessels ending up in North America and intermarrying with native tribes?
In Kentucky we've got blue-eyed Indians, and their language has a few words in common with Portugese. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I think "Sailing boat" is one of them.
Anything to contribute there?
I think you're thinking of the so-called Welsh Indians, who were discovered in the 1700's hundreds but whose vast repetroire of Cyrmic(sic) mysteriously disappeared when Lewis and Clark visited them less than a hundred years later.
Well... a hundred years ago, many Appalchian residents were still speaking a variation of Elizabethian English. By the 1970's, only the oldest members of the population were still using that diatlect. 3 generations t lose that culture... althugh that is also because there were outside influences causing changes.
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Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
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