ISA vs. The Empire

[Master of Ossus]

Wait a minute, are you saying that the picture of the Black Star being destroyed in ItB is not accurate? How far should we take this? Are we to assume that none of ItB is accurate?

Incidentally, the 4 MT figure is perfectly consistent with the rest of B5. And the fact that there were not several Sharlins shown in that shot does not preclude the possibility that they might have been off-screen, or destroyed by the other mines. They may have been moving to assist the Black Star later when they met a similar fate. This is not a contradiction, but an ommission.

[weemadando]

To start with its 2 megatons, not 4.

Before anyone flames: I am a B5er. I love the show and I love the tech, but when the calcs are done it just isn't as powerful. Its infinitely cooler, but not more powerful.

[seanrobertson]

Ah, Adam took care of the Vorlon fighter part for me, as for this:

As for the scene that's constantly run back to....

Yup, the 2 MT figure came from a drunken Londo telling a story to kids..

With respects, so what? That's also a potential false dilemma. Londo
was setting the stage for the story, but there's nothing to indicate that
everything we saw came purely from *his* memory--that the entire thing
was colored from his perspective.

Even if it somehow did, why wouldn't a drunk guy get the 2 megaton figure
right? That's a leap in logic: Londo is drunk; therefore, he must be wrong.
He wasn't even that drunk, anyway...the alcohol didn't seem so much to
dull his senses as to screw with the hold the Keeper had on him. It could
be analogous to a mutilated person taking morphine: they're in extreme
pain, so the drug affects the pain receptors more so than it gives the guy
a buzz.

that is not the only reason that scene is unreliable, but also because there was only *one* sharlin there...

As I recall, Sheridan's tactical officer said they
had three nukes left. They used two onscreen.
The other could've destroyed the other ships,
which incidentally might *not* be "Sharlin" Warcruisers.
IIRC, Sheridan simply said they were cruisers--
nothing specific.

now, should we believe the drunk telling a story who wasn't there (whom also forgot that there was more than 1),

Not necessarily. Again, IIRC, Black Star was supposed to be "monstrous"
according to Sheridan. It might've been the "Shargotti" class, with smaller
cruisers docked with her or killed by the third nuke.

As for Londo, see above. There are plenty of story-telling techniques which
allow a seamless segue between a non-omniscient narrator and flashbacks
to "actual events" as such.

or Sheridan, who was there, but does not say exactly how powerful the bombs were or how many he used. That ItB scene contradicts sheridan's statements, whom was there, and is therefore unrealiable.

It doesn't contradict them. What about the third bomb?

If you keep insisting on it however: Notice that when we see the initial flash of the bomb, at which point it releases all it's head, and most of it's destructive power (in space at least) that the Sharlin's hull does not even begin melt away at all. However, notice where the damage done is. (The Legend of the Rangers movie helps to support this theory more so)

I agree in part. The damage was a straight line leading into the starboard
fin weapons array. It was probably EMP that caused the charged cannons'
power feeds to go haywire and explode.

I don't know of anything in Legend that lends support to the EMP explanation, however...

First, shortly before detonating the first tac-nuke notice that there is an energy spike as the sharlin prepares to fire it's weapon. Now, instead of detonating it then, Sheridan wait a few seconds, so that their weapons are charged up.. and then, by good timing (and just blind luck) he detonates it just as, or just before the Sharlin fires it's weapon, cause it to detonate, taking off the fin. (Notice the fin is blown off below the lower weapon ports) The support from B5:LotR comes from the captains statement about weapons being more volitile and should therefore be attacked first.

Okay.

Regardless, this is a weakness. It explains why the ship suffered damage,
but it doesn't do much to negate the fact that it *happened.*

As for the second nuke, you can clearly see either atmosphere or some sort of gas for the weapon system venting from the destroyed fin, which the second nuke would ignite, which would lead to internal explosions, destroying the Sharlin from within. (I'm going to search for screens now, you can clearly see that the Sharlin was not blown away by the nuke blast)

You don't have to...I do agree, at least in part.

It looked as if the aftmost fin blew up. We know from the Trigati incident that there is at least one big reactor back there. The power network was already unstable, so when that reactor blows, so does the rest of the already damaged ship.

OH! One more thing:

As for the power those fighters took (after Adam so kindly provided screens showing fighters flying through the blast), we'll take that 100 m away, which would be quite concieveable from adam's screens:

Remember, however, that energy weapons are far more intense. If a mile-wide concrete slab was exposed to the energy of a tank shell across its entire surface, it shouldn't suffer any visible damage. But nail it in less than a square meter area with the same (potentially actually far less) energy, and you'll see visible damage.

That said, I agree that the Vorlon fighters are impressive ships. For that matter, Minbari fighters are downright awesome. But what do Vorlon ships have to do with the ISA, or the fact that said organization treats 500 megaton weapons as serious firepower?

Vorlon fighters are also considerably larger than Wars fighter craft. X-Wings
are 8m long; TIEs, 6m (?). A Vorlon fighter is 22m long. At that size, you're looking at a better comparison between them and something like Slave One or the Millenium Falcon (which we've seen shrugging off at least one direct turbolaser hit).

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, Londo's memory clearly is not the source of everything there. He was not there when the Sheridan destroyed the Black Star. He was not there when Franklin was arrested. He was not there during the attempted peace mission. He was not there when the Grey Council decided to go to Za'ha'Dum, and he certainly was not on the Grey Council's ship, or the Prometheus, when the first battle began. Clearly the story goes beyond what Londo remembered, or could remember. And he was not the one who said, "2 MT." That was stated by EA officers in their dialogue.

[Isil`Zha]

With respects, so what? That's also a potential false dilemma. Londo
was setting the stage for the story, but there's nothing to indicate that
everything we saw came purely from *his* memory--that the entire thing
was colored from his perspective.

Even if it somehow did, why wouldn't a drunk guy get the 2 megaton figure
right? That's a leap in logic: Londo is drunk; therefore, he must be wrong.
He wasn't even that drunk, anyway...the alcohol didn't seem so much to
dull his senses as to screw with the hold the Keeper had on him. It could
be analogous to a mutilated person taking morphine: they're in extreme
pain, so the drug affects the pain receptors more so than it gives the guy
a buzz.

The part about him being drunk was supportive, not the main reason, but one of a couple.

As I recall, Sheridan's tactical officer said they
had three nukes left. They used two onscreen.
The other could've destroyed the other ships,
which incidentally might *not* be "Sharlin" Warcruisers.
IIRC, Sheridan simply said they were cruisers--
nothing specific.

Notice that in ItB Sheridan, in Londo's perspective of the story, stated that the "A single ace cruiser, the Black Star had been making many hit and run attacks in the last few weeks".. not 2 or 3, but specifically 1. This is contradictory to what Sherdian himself says in a later episode.

Not necessarily. Again, IIRC, Black Star was supposed to be "monstrous"
according to Sheridan. It might've been the "Shargotti" class, with smaller
cruisers docked with her or killed by the third nuke.

As for Londo, see above. There are plenty of story-telling techniques which
allow a seamless segue between a non-omniscient narrator and flashbacks
to "actual events" as such.

It doesn't contradict them. What about the third bomb?

It was stated in ItB that there was only one ship.

I agree in part. The damage was a straight line leading into the starboard
fin weapons array. It was probably EMP that caused the charged cannons'
power feeds to go haywire and explode.

I don't know of anything in Legend that lends support to the EMP explanation, however...

Not neccisarilly EMP, but just the blast of the nuke going down the gun port just as it's about to fire.

Okay.

Regardless, this is a weakness. It explains why the ship suffered damage,
but it doesn't do much to negate the fact that it *happened.*

Notice Sheridan waited until just as they fired, and it wasn't exactly a pinpoint attack he used either, he used a large blast that covered everything to hit the gunport just as the Black Star fired. I'm thinking it's more reminicent of the Midway...

You don't have to...I do agree, at least in part.

It looked as if the aftmost fin blew up. We know from the Trigati incident that there is at least one big reactor back there. The power network was already unstable, so when that reactor blows, so does the rest of the already damaged ship.

Internal explosions are a bitch.

Remember, however, that energy weapons are far more intense. If a mile-wide concrete slab was exposed to the energy of a tank shell across its entire surface, it shouldn't suffer any visible damage. But nail it in less than a square meter area with the same (potentially actually far less) energy, and you'll see visible damage.

That said, I agree that the Vorlon fighters are impressive ships. For that matter, Minbari fighters are downright awesome. But what do Vorlon ships have to do with the ISA, or the fact that said organization treats 500 megaton weapons as serious firepower?

Vorlon fighters are also considerably larger than Wars fighter craft. X-Wings
are 8m long; TIEs, 6m (?). A Vorlon fighter is 22m long. At that size, you're looking at a better comparison between them and something like Slave One or the Millenium Falcon (which we've seen shrugging off at least one direct turbolaser hit).

The point was that 500 MT nukes only pissed them off, but wasn't even able to destroy any fighters.... (yet T-bolts do have the firepower to take down Vorlon Fighters....)

Remember, there were 40 of these 500 MT bombs but only 3 detonations... so, where are the other 37 of them? Detonated elsewhere, or perhaps more than 1 were planeted on those asteroids....

[Master of Ossus]

You are creating another false dillema. He destroyed one ace cruiser, and the other mine could still have been used to destroy other ships. That is not contradicted by the episode.

[adam warlock]

Okay i updated the html document with screen captures to include some "brief" comments, also altered the colour of the highlight around the furthermost fighters:

http://www.geocities.com/baguadiz/vfbomb.htm

In some images you circle the asteroid red (cap 1, the third and fourth pictures). In others (cap 2, fourth picture), the red circle is around
a fighter in the background. What's up with that?

That was a purple circle around a fighter further into a background.
Nevermind i change the colour to bright yellow.

1--What bearing does this have on ISA vs. Empire? Despite Isil'Zha's
red herring, Vorlon fighters are NOT part of the Interstellar Alliance.

I know..
But since this scene was mentioned i thought id put in my contribution.

These two fighters are, at best, at the fringes of the blast--your green-encircled fighter
actually being to the "right" of the blast and not enveloped at all

To the right?..

It was near enough at the side of the asteroid just before the nuke blew.
also keep in mind that the now lower yellow encircled figher was initially blocked by the asteroid. and playing the video of the scene also inidicates the upper yellow asteroid to have been obstructed by the asteroid too. As cap. 3b would suggest, the asteroid was actually in between the yellow encircled and green encircled fighters.

Hence for the purpose of attempting to further clarify the position of the asteroid (or the position of the furthermost fighters to the asteroid) i took more captures of events prior to scene shown in cap. 1.
Captures and the "brief" comments of my examination are shown in a second document:
http://www.geocities.com/baguadiz/vfbomb2.htm

The upper furthermost fighter of concern here (encircled in purple) did progress to being visible (cap. A) to being obstructed by the asteroid (cap. B) to emerging from behind the asteroid (cap. C and cap. D).
The lower furthermost fighter here progressed from being obstructed (cap. A) to emerging away from being blocked by the asteroid (cap. B - cap. D, though not highlighted in cap. D).

It should also be noted that the upper furthermost fighter here has a length, projected on the screen plane, similar to those projected by the further most fighters of concern in first document (encircled in yellow).

This therefore suggests that the asteroid at the time of explosion was, from the screen's direction of view, in front of the yellow encircled fighters, and behind the green encircled one. And that due to the projected length of the blue encircled fighter (less than the projected length of the green, but greater than the yellow), it too is on a screen parallel plane behind the green, and in front of the yellow encircled fighters.

though, as i stated in the end of the first document, this doesnt still indicate which fighter is closest to the asteroid, it does suggest that they, considering the lengths of the fighter to be 21.92m (~17m sans the tendrils)
cant be beyond around 1km away as you suggested.

(I noticed you didn't draw a circle around it in vidcap series 5, though it's just as visible as is in 6).

vidcaps 4, and 5 now.

yes i agree. i can just make out a shape but its still not as clear as the shape in the following set of images or in the top+bottom right image of cap. 3a.

a blast that can swallow a kilometer-wide ship whole will certainly obscure fighters at the outer reaches of that range. Perhaps not totally obscure, but then...that's not what we're most concerned with, is it? That is a nitpick with my argument and relevance to the thread in general, at best.

no your conclusion doesnt take into account just how close those fighters to the asteroid were really shown to be. There are two other reasons to why the explosion in the 1st bomb scene (with shadow ships) was much larger, or appeared much larger, than the explosion in the second bomb scene i detailed on.

1) There couldve been more (500mt) bombs on the second asteroid.
2) The fact that the 1st bomb was placed on a clearly much larger body than the 2nd asteroid. What this means is there was much more material that was turned into bright plasma by the energy release of the nuke. Consider this analogy: There are two spheres of same material, but one 3 times greater in diameter than the other. Both then were destroyed/made to explode by a same level/source of energy. Which do you think had a larger explosion, the smaller sphere, or the large one?.

3--I agree: the quality of those vidgrabs is holding you back. It would've probably been best to manipulate the image, such that the Vorlon fighter and blast aren't so close to the same color.

I tried using selective colour tool on photoshop..increasing the greens/yellows, unforunately it still couldnt make out as much detail as merely adjusting gamma, or contrast and brightness levels.

perhaps best to wait for season 4 to come out on dvd, and obtain the appropriate software that allows for frame by frame pausing, and capture. (power dvd by cyberlink?)

Yeah. I pointed out as much in my post. But evidently, yes, they are quite far away from the asteroid, since the first blast engulfed a much larger ship.

If you watch the video carefully you would see what i am trying to indicate using the screen captures (albeit relatively poor ones) i obtained. That the vorlon fighters were closer to the asteroid than you think. And i already gave my reason as to why to 1st explosion would look bigger.

You're looking at a similar-yield bomb, and much smaller ships. They're at the very fringes of the blast. The blast shouldn't look significantly different. Ergo, these smaller ships must be farther away.

if a large enough nuke is capable of destroying a 10mx10mx10m object in space, and is also capable of similarly destroying a 50mx50mx50m object of similar composition, which combination do you think would create a larger explosion of (melted+vapourised) material and plasma.

And what happened to *that* fighter? You didn't circle it in any
later caps.

Hell, it looked red to me anyway...please choose your
colors more selectively.

adjusted purple to yellow on updated documents, though the further most fighters of concern in the second document is still encircled in purple.

How close does a fighter need be to absorb a megaton from that
bomb, anyway?

well assume a side surface area of around 17m x 7m (neglecting the tendrils for length) we have surface area of 119m2 on which 1 megaton is absorbed.. or 4.18e15Joules.. or 3.51e13 Joules per metre squared. (Jm-2)

surface area of sphere = 4 x pi x r^2.

For the total yield/energy to equal 500mt.

Esd x ( 4 x pi x r^2) = 500mt

where Esd = energy surface density = 3.51e13Jm-2

Hence r^2 = 500mt / (Esd x 4 x pi)

putting the numbers in we get.

r^2 = 500mt/ (3.51e13J x 4 x pi)

r = 68.81m

which equals to around 3 lengths of the vorlon fighter (21.92m not 17m).

(course this doesnt take into account (kinetic+heat) energy transfer by way of vaped material, and plasma)

From that perspective, the bomb would face the fighter's rear--not the ridiculously generous angle I'd suggested earlier.

??
from the images shown in cap. 3a, its evident that during the initial moments of the explosion, the fighters (even the ones furthest from the screen) would have the energies mostly incident to their sides that face the explosion.

At a mere ONE fighter length from the CENTER of the blast, the fighter would absorb 3.3 megatons. At two lengths, 822 kilotons. At three, 365 kilotons. At four, 206 kilotons. And so on, and so on.

at one figher length:
---------------------

we have a sphere of surface area,

4 x pi x (21.92m)^2 = 6037.97m2

giving us an Esd = 500mt/6037.97m2 = 0.083mtm-2

using surface area i assumed earlier..i.e. 17m x 7m = 119m2

we have a figure of 9.85 megatons absorbed at one fighter length away.

for two fighter lengths:
------------------------

surface area = 4 x pi x (43.84)^2 = 24151.88m2

Esd = 500mt/24151.88m2 = 0.0207mtm-2

Energy absorbed by side of vorlon fighter = 0.0207mtm-2 x 119m-2 = 2.464mt.

for three fighter lengths:
--------------------------

Surface area = 4 x pi x (65.76)^2 = 54341.73m2

Esd = 500mt/54341.73m2 = 0.0092mtm-2

Energy absorbed by side of vorlon fighter = 0.0092mtm-2 x 119m2 = 1.095mt

(as earlier calc indicated as much)

but my main concern was how much energy they absorbed; i.e., less than one megaton, or 500 times less than some people seem to intimate if not come out and directly say.

depends on just how really close the fighters were.. though i did earlier "guess" the blue encircled fighter to be around 2 lengths away at the nearest, at the point the bomb blew.
i suppose season 4 dvd would enable me to guess more accurately the relative distances.. I still need a clear(or known) point of reference that i could use to accurately determine distances of the fighters and asteroid to the screen, hence determine their distances to eachother.

[His Divine Shadow]

The shielding on an ISD is 160 TT.

? I dunno about that, either. That would mean roughly 1,000 Acclamator HTL shots would be required to drop an ISD's shield. I doubt
*that*: that'd be firing 3 200 gigaton/shot turbolasers continuously
for 4.4 minutes.

Well, first off, the HTL's on an ISD2 are way bigger and powerfull than the QTL's on the Acclamator, secondly they got 32 of them in a broadside, now a single shield arc on an ISD and ISD2 seems to be roughly equal or somewhat below that of a full ISD2 broadside.

Independent scalings using RPG stats gives us 2.5TT HTL's, thats 80TT in a broadside.
So the 160TT figure could hold some truth y'know

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh yes, in the Technomage triology, the 2 500Mt bombs on the Whitestar are said to be powerfull enough to destroy babylon 5 many times over.

[Isil`Zha]

Oh yes, in the Technomage triology, the 2 500Mt bombs on the Whitestar are said to be powerfull enough to destroy babylon 5 many times over.

And? A civilan station compares to warships how?

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh yes, in the Technomage triology, the 2 500Mt bombs on the Whitestar are said to be powerfull enough to destroy babylon 5 many times over.

And? A civilan station compares to warships how?

Pretty good when it took on that Centauri Warship

[Isil`Zha]

Oh yes, in the Technomage triology, the 2 500Mt bombs on the Whitestar are said to be powerfull enough to destroy babylon 5 many times over.

And? A civilan station compares to warships how?

Pretty good when it took on that Centauri Warship

Not it's actual hull though, which was torn through after it took the first hit. Don't try and change the subject from how much b5 can take ot how much it can dish out :p

[His Divine Shadow]

Not it's actual hull though, which was torn through after it took the first hit. Don't try and change the subject from how much b5 can take ot how much it can dish out :p

And it took damage from the warships cannon did it not?

[Isil`Zha]

Not it's actual hull though, which was torn through after it took the first hit. Don't try and change the subject from how much b5 can take ot how much it can dish out :p

And it took damage from the warships cannon did it not?

Where are you going with this? The warship cannons tore through B5's hull... it's a civilan station that is not heavily armored. You were asserting that because that 2 of the 500 MT devices could destroy B5 that it proved their warships were just as fragile.. which is faulty.

[His Divine Shadow]

Where are you going with this? The warship cannons tore through B5's hull... it's a civilan station that is not heavily armored. You were asserting that because that 2 of the 500 MT devices could destroy B5 that it proved their warships were just as fragile.. which is faulty.

I'm not saying that, I'm speaking about the weapons and the damage they did, and if they really where anywhere in the MT range they would have just needed a few shots here and there it poke it full of holes or outright blow it in half, we see the centauri warship fire a whole salvo of bolts that tear through one of the thingies, whatever they are and not leave much other damage.

Ofcourse I think the bombs could destroy those ships, those bombs where described as being very very powerfull in the books.

[Typhonis 1]

*VEG*gee 500mt bombs vs ships that uses 2.5 terraton energy cannons......nope cant see the ISA winning

[Isil`Zha]

Where are you going with this? The warship cannons tore through B5's hull... it's a civilan station that is not heavily armored. You were asserting that because that 2 of the 500 MT devices could destroy B5 that it proved their warships were just as fragile.. which is faulty.

I'm not saying that, I'm speaking about the weapons and the damage they did, and if they really where anywhere in the MT range they would have just needed a few shots here and there it poke it full of holes or outright blow it in half, we see the centauri warship fire a whole salvo of bolts that tear through one of the thingies, whatever they are and not leave much other damage.

Ofcourse I think the bombs could destroy those ships, those bombs where described as being very very powerfull in the books.

Umm, the shots from the Centuari Warship *did* rip right through it where it was able to hit to... B5's interceptor system intercepted most of the incoming fire though.... Look at the rate of fire of the Centuari cruiser and how accurate and how many B5's interceptors were able to stop... Interceptors would be quite effective against TLs.

[His Divine Shadow]

Umm, the shots from the Centuari Warship *did* rip right through it where it was able to hit to...

Not really, I remember it taking several shots to burn through the pylons or whatever they where, definitly KT level fire there, but not MT level.

B5's interceptor system intercepted most of the incoming fire though.... Look at the rate of fire of the Centuari cruiser and how accurate and how many B5's interceptors were able to stop... Interceptors would be quite effective against TLs.

There is no proof of that, and ofcourse it's unlikely since TL's are not plasma weapons at all, unlike bolt weapons in B5.

[Isil`Zha]

Not really, I remember it taking several shots to burn through the pylons or whatever they where, definitly KT level fire there, but not MT level.

How does that equate to having only KT firepower? At any rate, now you're only supporting my arguement on the issue

There is no proof of that, and ofcourse it's unlikely since TL's are not plasma weapons at all, unlike bolt weapons in B5.

No proof of what? B5 fires interceptors at incoming fire, interceptors hit the pulses causing them to detonate, none hit the station until they say that there's too much for the interceptors... as for not being plasma... so what? The interceptors hit incoming fire giving it something to impact against, thus release it's energy/disperse in open space.

[His Divine Shadow]

How does that equate to having only KT firepower? At any rate, now you're only supporting my arguement on the issue

B5Techs calcs on the issue are actually quite accurate on this issue, not withstanding his unwarranted speculations on armor.
I reccomend you check them out.

No proof of what? B5 fires interceptors at incoming fire, interceptors hit the pulses causing them to detonate, none hit the station until they say that there's too much for the interceptors... as for not being plasma... so what? The interceptors hit incoming fire giving it something to impact against, thus release it's energy/disperse in open space.

I know that, it works against plasma weapons, but not against electromagnetic weapons, like lasers and the ilk, it'll only deplete it somewhat, not break it up totally.

[Master of Ossus]

Oh yes, in the Technomage triology, the 2 500Mt bombs on the Whitestar are said to be powerfull enough to destroy babylon 5 many times over.

And? A civilan station compares to warships how?

B5 can take on a warship, as was stated in canon many times after the upgrade. B4 was about to be destroyed by a piddle fusion bomb that the Shadows were using, and B4 is designed to be able to go into a combat zone. The fact that a 5 mile long station can be destroyed so easily indicates that warships in the EA are not vastly more powerful, because the level of technology is approximately the same on the two ships--an observation confirmed by the similar damage patterns when B5 is fired on by the Centauri ship, and when EA ships fire their main weapons on each other.

Now, we don't know what TL's are, exactly, but we do know that they are NOT lasers. The argument about EM weapons versus interceptors is a red herring. On the other hand, we also have no proof that lasers detonate the entire bolt when they actually hit a target. It is highly probably that many TL bolts would evade the interceptors (especially since the damaging portion of the bolts is invisible). Even if they could stop an HTL blast, it really would not matter. Here's why. If we assume that B5 can withstand 1 gigaton of energy, we see that the interceptors would have to intercept the HTL blasts a considerable distance from B5 in order for the blast to dissipate enough so that it would not damage the station. Since HTL's are likely to be much more than 200GT, we must assume that B5 would have to intercept them several hundred meters from the station (especially since the Black Star was destroyed by a total of 4 MT, both at CONSIDERABLE distances from the ship, and since the Black Star is a ship of the Minbari, which are probably the most advanced race in the ISA).

[Isil`Zha]

(especially since the damaging portion of the bolts is invisible). Even if they could stop an HTL blast, it really would not matter. Here's why. If we assume that B5 can withstand 1 gigaton of energy, we see that the interceptors would have to intercept the HTL blasts a considerable distance from B5 in order for the blast to dissipate enough so that it would not damage the station. Since HTL's are likely to be much more than 200GT, we must assume that B5 would have to intercept them several hundred meters from the station (especially since the Black Star was destroyed by a total of 4 MT, both at CONSIDERABLE distances from the ship, and since the Black Star is a ship of the Minbari, which are probably the most advanced race in the ISA).

1) Invisible portion BS delt with here: http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1

2) TLs have *never* shown to "realease huge blasts" when they "detonate".. especially in the form of anywhere near GT levels

[Master of Ossus]

1. The SB babies reference only a fraction of all of the incidents of explosions before the visible bolt portion strikes a target. There are other incidents in TPM (strange, as they claim that they are FX gaffes), ESB, and RotJ. In RotJ, an invisible portion bolt appears to hit an ISD (in the scene where the Nebulon-B and the ISD are broadsiding each other) before the frigate even fires, indicating a lightspeed shot. There may also be such incidents in ANH, but in that one it is tough to tell because often there are multiple shots along similar paths within a few seconds of each other.

1a. It's in the ICS. Deal with it.

2. TL's have also never been shown to fire GT level blasts (except once, in RotJ), but that does not preclude their power to do so. The fact that we see both medium and heavy turbolasers firing on "flak-burst" mode in RotJ, ESB, and AotC (as well as TPM, to a lesser extent), indicates that it is not difficult to set up a flak-burst, and that they are pretty common in lighter TL's.

Incidentally, you are kind of using a strawman. The fact is that if the HTL bolt is intercepted prior to impact by B5's interceptors, then all of that energy would have to go somewhere. It cannot just be stopped. Some of it would inevitably vaporize the interceptor, and the rest of it would do one of a couple of things. It could explode, or it could just continue on towards the station, in which case the interceptors would be of almost no use to B5 ships or stations if they were fighting against the Empire. Basically you are falling for the black and white fallacy. You believe that energy is either stopped, in which case it does no damage to the ship or station that it was fired at, or that it continues to do its full damage. In either case you are incorrect. Energy has to do something. It cannot simply disappear.

BTW, is it possible that the mysterious explosions we see in RotJ, AotC, and TPM (where we see nothing going in, but an explosion randomly) are the result of invisible-portion explosions? I have always wondered what they were, and I have never been able to come up with a reasonable explanation for those. This isn't really a theory, or even a hypothesis, I'm just wondering if there's any evidence for this, one way or the other.

[Ender]

I really need to check in here more often. This probably explains why you never responded to my PM.

Here's something to chew on:

The max output of a Shadow Molecular Slicer (as per babtechonthenet's calcs) is 2.867 GT

No offense, but...

Huh? None of us ever suggested anything of the sort to Brian,
and I know he didn't come up with such a figure.

Since the planet killer delivers this much energy in 10-12 hours, a warship has a strict upper limit of 12 million terawatts.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/shadows/wa ... #firepower

1.2x10^16 / 4.186x10^9 = 2866698 Tons, or 2.87 GT.

A Shadow spider might be able to generate blasts of a few
dozen megatons/sec. Most of the time they can get the job done
with hundreds of TW.

I took the extreme upper limit on purpose.

The shielding on an ISD is 160 TT.

? I dunno about that, either. That would mean roughly 1,000 Acclamator HTL shots would be required to drop an ISD's shield. I doubt
*that*: that'd be firing 3 200 gigaton/shot turbolasers continuously
for 4.4 minutes. We've never seen anything *near* that kind of
firing rate, and from the wattage qualifications Curtis gave us in _ICS_,
it's possible that a dozen or so simultaneous HTL hits would drop
a shield vector. Give or take a few (probably give...but thousands more?
Nah).

[/b]I ws told there was a quote from Dr. Saxton saying that the ISDs were 10x more powerful then the Acclamators. This translates inot their reactors generatin 10x more power, and, if they direct an equal proportion of that power to their shields, 10x more powerful shields. Hence the 160 TT.

[Ender]

It might've been the "Shargotti" class

A what? Please explain.