Star Trek federation clearly wins

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-20 08:26pm

The entire arc of the Star Wars movies shows the bad guys triumphing over the good. The OR falls, and the Empire takes its place.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-20 08:29pm

Look ma, no flames! It's time for Mr. Nice Guy approach.

sar2 wrote:This is my first post, my first day visiting this site and reading it. I have not read many posts either. I agree that the Empire from Star Wars has more fire power but it just could not beat the Star Trek Federation. The Empire has too many inept soldiers.

Provide examples of these inept soldiers from the films or novels, rather then just claiming there are large amount of examples of them. Furthermore, the Empire also has speed and industrial advantages, which will win the war in the end.

The other thing that has to be realized is that the Empire is the 'villain' so they are designed with flaws so they can be defeated. The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners. What if the rebels from Star Wars battled the villains from Star Trek?

That would be correct if we were discussing it as literature. However this is a theoretical war between two military powers, not a story. There is no hero or villian.

Now if the Federation were fighting the rebels (Luke, Han and etc...) then
it is harder to say who would win. The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies)
The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

Incorrect on both counts. Please take the time to examine the firepower calculations for both sides, and you would see the massive (compared to Federation ships of course) Mon Calamari warships observed in "ROTJ" would be able to actually defeat the Federation by firepower alone, and the tremendous speed advantage would just shorten a campaign. As for saying the Rebels having the force, this is wrong. Only Wing Commander Luke Skywalker was observed to have Force abilities, and could not influence a victory.

When any two armies battle each has strength (number of soldiers, firepower, territory, etc...) , intelligence ( the skills of the leaders and soliders), and luck. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck. This is why the ewoks defeated them! Now if you assign equal strength, intelligence and luck to the Empire and the Federation then they will never beat each other. If you use the abilities from the movie(s) and tv show(s) then there is no way the Empire could beat the Federation, especially the TNG. (They might not even be able to defeat Kirk's Federation) The Empire lacks the intelligence (and since they are the villain, they lack the luck) to defeat the Federation which has more than enough intelligence and luck.

There is more than enough examples in each movie to show this. Just watch the movies and you will see!

That is 6 hours of film you want US to watch in order to prove your claims. You also repeat the erronious "bad guy loses" argument, which is completely irrelevant.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-06-20 08:33pm

Great. Instead of being infected by SARS, we've been infected by SAR2. Close enough, I say.

Would have been nice if he'd read the site and some of this board's arguments before presuming to comment on both.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-20 08:38pm

Yes, it would be nice. Now that he's read our arguments and tried to refute them, I'd start pulling the gloves off. Its just that I'm hesitant to flame people to whom the tired old SWvsST arguments may be new.

But he's clearly read them now and demonstrated a servere lack of comprehension.

sar2 · Post by **sar2** » 2003-06-20 09:02pm

I like this guy's reply the most. He is very insulting and I like that because he is very serious.

I wrote: In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

he wrote: When Episode III comes out, I suggest you watch it.

After the bad taste 'Episode II' and 'Episode I' left in my mouth, I don't know if I can stomach 'Episode III'. In the end of the series the Empire does lose. (the villains lose!)

he wrote: The Empire is not all powerful. It is just magnitudes MORE powerful. And note that SW is not boring.

I never said Star Wars was boring. I like Star Wars! If a Jedi were all powerful, with god-like powers, then SW would perhaps be boring.

I wrote:I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two. They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented!

He wrote: By rabid trektards like yourself.

I am not a trektard.

All you do is take facts from one story, and facts from another story, and slap it together and assume one side can defeat the other.

I say they are not in the same universe. Why? Why don't they ever meet each other? Then maybe they are not in the same time period, or maybe they are not in the same galaxy. Of course I can't prove that they are in different universes. You can't prove they are in the same universe!

When Roddenberry created Star Trek he created the Star Trek universe, and when Lucas created Star Wars he created the Star Wars universe. They are not the same universe. Go ask Lucas.

You say that the laws of physics are the same in each universe but I say they are not. In Star Wars there is a force in the universe called the Force. Why is it that the people of Star Trek have never heard of it? Why is there time travel in Star Trek? In Star Trek there is the Q , there is telepathy,even the space travel are different. If you take the information given to you by the movies and tv shows only then you will have to conclude that the way that each travels through space is different. How do you explain teleportation? Do you really think heisenberg compensators could exist in the Star Wars universe?

Why wouldn't the Q get involved if the Federation fought the Empire? Time and time again the Q have come along and helped the Federation. What about the Prophets (or worm-hole-aliens as the Federation calls them) Why wouldn't they help? What about all the other many 'magical' beings in the Star Trek universe that could help? You get to pick and choose things from the Star Wars universe that the Empire has so I will choose things from the Star Trek universe that they have used to defeat their foes and then use it to defeat the Empire.
1.) Q he has helped the Federation many times
2.) worm-hole-aliens (they have helped the Federation)
3.) Ocampa (from Voyager, many of them have 'magical' powers) Kes was one of them and she helped Voyager
3.5) the 'Caretakers' who the Ocampa worships might help too

4.) the Traveler (from TNG who has more 'magical' powers) he helped the Enterprise
and there are others. The Empire has a lot of advanced technology that has been shown in the movies but not a lot of 'magical' powers. The only thing they have is those who are on the dark side and they don't seem to have all of the magical powers that these beings have.
So there you have it, the Federation wins

This site is so silly. I think it is fun to imagine what would happen if they did ever fight. I still think it is impossible to tell but if you say the Empire wins, then I will say the Federation wins!

You can examine Star Trek's Federation, and Star War's Empire, list the technology of both and compare the technology and man power and even 'magic' powers but that still does not mean that the Empire can defeat the Federation. You cannot predict what the Federation or the Empire will do when put in the unlikely situation of having to do battle with each other. For all you know, they might end up as friends

Is this mesage board for opinions or what? This is just my opinion. You do not have to agree or like it. This message board has over 1000 posts and topics. I can't read everything that has been written on the site. I have read enough. This is just my opinion, that's all. Don't take it too seriously.

I can't understand why are you people so damned angry. Maybe it is because the Empire has lost in battle to the Federation

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-20 09:06pm

A heaping helping of Appeals To Ignorance. When you're as ignorant as this guy, I suppose it's natural.

Go away.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-20 09:09pm

sar2 wrote:
I am amazed at how fast my post was replied to! I have been reading more and more from this site and it appears to be an anti-StarTrek site!

First, provide examples. Then, provide an example how this supposed Trek hating effects the conclusions.

Now I see it really does not matter what my opinion is.

Not unless you back it up.

You cannot compare the French fighting the Nazis with the Federation fighting the Empire. In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.

Of course you can. With the exception of some Neo-nazis, everyone agrees the Allies were the good guys and the Axis the bad guys.

First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

First, yes you can. It might not be very successful since the majority of people like a happy ending, but there is no law stating the villians can't win. Look at TESB. The Empire has drivin the Rebels from Hoth, Luke has lost his arm and has to deal with Vader being his father and Han Solo is on his way to Tatoonie to become a prized wall decoration. Even ST has examples, like "The Changing Face of Evil" the Defiant is destroyed and the Federation looses its only Cardassian system.

Regardless, we are not writing fictional stories. This is analyze of how the Galactic Empire and the United Federation of Planets would do in a war against each other. It is not a story. It's a very simple concept called "Suspension of Disbelief" in which we petend the GE and UFP are real.

Is the main reason for this site is to bash Star Trek?

No.

Why not just say that from the start? The Empire has more fire power than the Federation only because Lucas wrote that way. If the Federation were all powerful (like you believe the Empire to be), then there would be no conflict in the series and the show would become boring.

Very few ST stories revolve around problems that could be solved by pure firepower.

I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two.

Because it's fun!

They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented! (It would make more sense for the 'heros' of the stories to battle each other)

It's because people like fights. We like to pit forces against each other.

This argument is like saying 'who would win in a battle between Batman and Captain America?'.

Actually, many comic fans DO say that. Did you recently get introduced to sci-fi online, because your lack of any knowledge of fans debating fans about who would win it fights is stunning.

There is no way to really to truly decide who would win. You would have to have some writter come up with the story and then he decides.

No, you compare Captain America's abbilites to Batmans, and logically conclude who would be likely to win.

For the imaginary battle of the Empire and the Federation, you would have to ask Lucas and dig up Roddenberry and let them decide who wins. You are just taking bits and pieces from the movies and tv shows and deciding for yourself who wins. What about the information in the Star Trek universe and Star Wars universe that you don't see? For example, who are Captain Kirk's parents? They exist, but they are not on the show. How do you know that his parents are not Q? You can argue anything!

That is why people created the "Burden of Proof" that which is not shown to exist does not exist. After all, I could say "How do you know Appolo 11 landed on the moon? They could have done..." but I'd be laughed at, and for good reason.

They are not even in the same 'universe'! In the Star Wars universe, there is a magic called the 'Force', Jedis and Death Stars, and in the Star Trek universe, they have telepathy, time travel, teleportation, god-like beings called Q and more. Also, the laws of physics are different in each universe! So how do you explain this? How can they truly have an honest battle? They can't! If you want them to fight, you have to first put them in a 'neutral universe' then you would have to make some changes to both sides in order for them to exist together (also Star Trek in further in the future than Star Wars, which is supposed to be a 'long time ago in a galaxy far...blah blah') then you would have to explain the reason they are fighting. (They are not even in the same galaxy for all you know!) You have to put the Empire and the Federation in the 'neutral universe', create rules for this universe, and give them the abilities and equipment that is seen in the movies and tv shows. Even after doing all this, there is still no way of telling who would actually win!

Did you even read ANY part of the website?

The only thing I can agree on is that from the evidence of the movies, it appears that the Empire has more fire power than the Federation. (it appears so, but only Lucas and Roddenberry know for sure) I do not know if the Empire could defeat the Federation because I do not have enough information to come to that conclusion.

WE DO. If you had like you said, read the website, you could indeed see who would win.

I enjoyed Star Wars and I enjoyed Star Trek and I will continue to enjoy both. I have my opinion and so does everyone else. I have spent too much time already writing about this silly argument!

Good night everyone.

Silly argument? I've tried to be nice, but that's BULLSHIT! You've cared enough about this "silly argument" to view this website, register here and post, and read (more like skim since you missed even the basic elements) the main site. You do care about this debate and now are trying to claim that you're better then us because you don't care about such a silly subject (even though you do).

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-06-20 09:11pm

sar2 wrote:I like this guy's reply the most. He is very insulting and I like that because he is very serious.

I wrote: In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

he wrote: When Episode III comes out, I suggest you watch it.
After the bad taste 'Episode II' and 'Episode I' left in my mouth, I don't know if I can stomach 'Episode III'. In the end of the series the Empire does lose. (the villains lose!)

he wrote: The Empire is not all powerful. It is just magnitudes MORE powerful. And note that SW is not boring.
I never said Star Wars was boring. I like Star Wars! If a Jedi were all powerful, with god-like powers, then SW would perhaps be boring.

I wrote:I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two. They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented!

He wrote: By rabid trektards like yourself.
SNIP

OMG

Well you just keep telling youself that

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-20 09:19pm

sar2 wrote:I like this guy's reply the most. He is very insulting and I like that because he is very serious.

I wrote: In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

he wrote: When Episode III comes out, I suggest you watch it.
After the bad taste 'Episode II' and 'Episode I' left in my mouth, I don't know if I can stomach 'Episode III'. In the end of the series the Empire does lose. (the villains lose!)

But in Episode III the villains WIN! Can't you even understand the basic point he's making?

he wrote: I never said Star Wars was boring. I like Star Wars! If a Jedi were all powerful, with god-like powers, then SW would perhaps be boring.

Then why do you claim ST would be boring?

All you do is take facts from one story, and facts from another story, and slap it together and assume one side can defeat the other.

I say they are not in the same universe. Why? Why don't they ever meet each other? Then maybe they are not in the same time period, or maybe they are not in the same galaxy. Of course I can't prove that they are in different universes. You can't prove they are in the same universe!

When did we try?

When Roddenberry created Star Trek he created the Star Trek universe, and when Lucas created Star Wars he created the Star Wars universe. They are not the same universe. Go ask Lucas.

You say that the laws of physics are the same in each universe but I say they are not. In Star Wars there is a force in the universe called the Force. Why is it that the people of Star Trek have never heard of it? Why is there time travel in Star Trek? In Star Trek there is the Q , there is telepathy,even the space travel are different. If you take the information given to you by the movies and tv shows only then you will have to conclude that the way that each travels through space is different. How do you explain teleportation? Do you really think heisenberg compensators could exist in the Star Wars universe?

I grow tired of asking this and this will be my last time: Have you even bothered to read the main site?

Why wouldn't the Q get involved if the Federation fought the Empire? Time and time again the Q have come along and helped the Federation. What about the Prophets (or worm-hole-aliens as the Federation calls them) Why wouldn't they help? What about all the other many 'magical' beings in the Star Trek universe that could help? You get to pick and choose things from the Star Wars universe that the Empire has so I will choose things from the Star Trek universe that they have used to defeat their foes and then use it to defeat the Empire.
1.) Q he has helped the Federation many times[/quote]

That is incorrect. He NEVER helps the Federation. In fact, they repeatively threaten humanity's very existant.

2.) worm-hole-aliens (they have helped the Federation)

They were only willing to save Bajor.

3.) Ocampa (from Voyager, many of them have 'magical' powers) Kes was one of them and she helped Voyager

Magical powers? You mean barely non-existant telepathic abbilites. They wouldn't even be conquered; they'd be ignored.

3.5) the 'Caretakers' who the Ocampa worships might help too

She was ready to kill Voyager.

4.) the Traveler (from TNG who has more 'magical' powers) he helped the Enterprise

Actually, he said to Wesley he wouldn't help them solve their problems.

and there are others. The Empire has a lot of advanced technology that has been shown in the movies but not a lot of 'magical' powers. The only thing they have is those who are on the dark side and they don't seem to have all of the magical powers that these beings have.
So there you have it, the Federation wins

This site is so silly. I think it is fun to imagine what would happen if they did ever fight. I still think it is impossible to tell but if you say the Empire wins, then I will say the Federation wins!

I am trying to be nice. But I running out patient.

You can examine Star Trek's Federation, and Star War's Empire, list the technology of both and compare the technology and man power and even 'magic' powers but that still does not mean that the Empire can defeat the Federation. You cannot predict what the Federation or the Empire will do when put in the unlikely situation of having to do battle with each other. For all you know, they might end up as friends

[/quote]

Somebody should quote this.

If 2003 US and the Roman Empire fought there are unlikely situations that could happen.

Is this mesage board for opinions or what? This is just my opinion. You do not have to agree or like it. This message board has over 1000 posts and topics. I can't read everything that has been written on the site. I have read enough. This is just my opinion, that's all. Don't take it too seriously.

I can't understand why are you people so damned angry. Maybe it is because the Empire has lost in battle to the Federation

Because you refuse to answer people's points and continue to repeat your original post, and you cannot even comprehend the idea that an opinion isn't equal to cold hard facts!

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-20 09:22pm

This is your last warning Sar2. I've tried to be patient and polite. But if you do not READ THE MAIN SITE and start actually reading what people are writing, you're not going to last long here.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-20 09:32pm

sar2 wrote:I like this guy's reply the most. He is very insulting and I like that because he is very serious.

Thank You.

sar2 wrote:
I wrote: In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.
First of all, both Star Trek and Star Wars are not real so it does matter who is the 'villain' and who is the 'hero'. George Lucas and Gene Roddenberry would both agree that the Empire is the villain. You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

he wrote: When Episode III comes out, I suggest you watch it.
After the bad taste 'Episode II' and 'Episode I' left in my mouth, I don't know if I can stomach 'Episode III'. In the end of the series the Empire does lose. (the villains lose!)

The Empire never loses. It just signs a peace treaty with the New Republic.

sar2 wrote:
he wrote: The Empire is not all powerful. It is just magnitudes MORE powerful. And note that SW is not boring.
I never said Star Wars was boring. I like Star Wars! If a Jedi were all powerful, with god-like powers, then SW would perhaps be boring.

I wrote:I like both Star Wars and Star Trek and I don't know why anyone needs to compare the two. They are two different types of stories. But if you want to say that the Empire can defeat the Federation, go ahead. I don't know how or why this argument was invented!

No, you merely said that we claim the Empire is invincible. Then you said that if it were invincible, the episodes would be boring. They are not.

sar2 wrote:
He wrote: By rabid trektards like yourself.
I am not a trektard.

In that case, I appologise. But you have the mentality of a trektard.

sar2 wrote:All you do is take facts from one story, and facts from another story, and slap it together and assume one side can defeat the other.

Well, if visuals demonstrate that a single volley from a Heavy Turbolaser is 200 GT, and a Galaxy-class starship can take about 200 MT before it blows, it is not difficult to make well-founded assumptions.

sar2 wrote:I say they are not in the same universe. Why? Why don't they ever meet each other? Then maybe they are not in the same time period, or maybe they are not in the same galaxy. Of course I can't prove that they are in different universes. You can't prove they are in the same universe!

When Roddenberry created Star Trek he created the Star Trek universe, and when Lucas created Star Wars he created the Star Wars universe. They are not the same universe. Go ask Lucas.

I can't prove it, you can't prove it, Lucas can't prove it, Roddenberry can't prove it (after all, hes dead

), noone can. But for the purpose of this excercise, we are assuming that they are.

sar2 wrote:You say that the laws of physics are the same in each universe but I say they are not. In Star Wars there is a force in the universe called the Force. Why is it that the people of Star Trek have never heard of it?

Because no one has used it before?

sar2 wrote: Why is there time travel in Star Trek?

To act as the writer's catch 22.

sar2 wrote: In Star Trek there is the Q , there is telepathy,even the space travel are different. If you take the information given to you by the movies and tv shows only then you will have to conclude that the way that each travels through space is different.

Q has what are basically Jedi powers on steroids. Except for teleportation, everything he has ever done can be done by a Jedi (albeit not as strongly). There is telepathy in SW. Before hyperdrive, SW civilizations use a form of faster that light travel similar to warp, just much faster.

sar2 wrote: How do you explain teleportation? Do you really think heisenberg compensators could exist in the Star Wars universe?

No, because they couldn't exist in real life.

sar2 wrote:Why wouldn't the Q get involved if the Federation fought the Empire? Time and time again the Q have come along and helped the Federation. What about the Prophets (or worm-hole-aliens as the Federation calls them) Why wouldn't they help? What about all the other many 'magical' beings in the Star Trek universe that could help? You get to pick and choose things from the Star Wars universe that the Empire has so I will choose things from the Star Trek universe that they have used to defeat their foes and then use it to defeat the Empire.
1.) Q he has helped the Federation many times
2.) worm-hole-aliens (they have helped the Federation)
3.) Ocampa (from Voyager, many of them have 'magical' powers) Kes was one of them and she helped Voyager
3.5) the 'Caretakers' who the Ocampa worships might help too
4.) the Traveler (from TNG who has more 'magical' powers) he helped the Enterprise
and there are others. The Empire has a lot of advanced technology that has been shown in the movies but not a lot of 'magical' powers. The only thing they have is those who are on the dark side and they don't seem to have all of the magical powers that these beings have.
So there you have it, the Federation wins

Fine. Then the Empire gets Naga Sadow. A sith lord so powerful, he could make 2 stars simulateously go supernova by snapping his fingers.

Q has never helped the Federation. The only time he saves someone is after he puts them in a dangerous situation for his own amusement.All the Prophets ever did was talk to Sisko. Wow. Great help.

What have the Ocampa and Cartakers done to help the Federation?

I haven't seen the Traveler episode. What exactly did he do?

In the vs. community, gods and demi-gods are used by trekkies as a last resort, when they see everything is hopeless. Congratulations. Concession accepted.

sar2 wrote:This site is so silly. I think it is fun to imagine what would happen if they did ever fight. I still think it is impossible to tell but if you say the Empire wins, then I will say the Federation wins!

We base our oppinions on facts, you base yours on ignorance.

sar2 wrote:You can examine Star Trek's Federation, and Star War's Empire, list the technology of both and compare the technology and man power and even 'magic' powers but that still does not mean that the Empire can defeat the Federation. You cannot predict what the Federation or the Empire will do when put in the unlikely situation of having to do battle with each other. For all you know, they might end up as friends

The Empire would never ally with a communistic regime.

sar2 wrote:Is this mesage board for opinions or what? This is just my opinion. You do not have to agree or like it. This message board has over 1000 posts and topics. I can't read everything that has been written on the site.

This is a message board for educated oppinions.

sar2 wrote:I have read enough. This is just my opinion, that's all. Don't take it too seriously.

Don't worry, I won't.

sar2 wrote:I can't understand why are you people so damned angry. Maybe it is because the Empire has lost in battle to the Federation

Or mabye it is because we don't like to associate with idiots like you.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-06-20 10:11pm

Although no where as near as fun as Soveriegn I'll give this a shot.

sar2 wrote:*SNIPITY*
After the bad taste 'Episode II' and 'Episode I' left in my mouth, I don't know if I can stomach 'Episode III'.

Pointless

In the end of the series the Empire does lose. (the villains lose!)

Nope, they win, at the end of the other series the Empire loses..

*Snip pointless part about boredom*

I am not a trektard.

You trying to claim that trek will win because Good guys always win. A gang tries to mug me and my mom in an alley, despite being unarmed I'm garenteed to win because I'm the good guy, trying to protect me and my mother.

All you do is take facts from one story, and facts from another story, and slap it together and assume one side can defeat the other.

So Bambi could kill Thor?

I say they are not in the same universe. Why? Why don't they ever meet each other? Then maybe they are not in the same time period, or maybe they are not in the same galaxy. Of course I can't prove that they are in different universes. You can't prove they are in the same universe!

When Roddenberry created Star Trek he created the Star Trek universe, and when Lucas created Star Wars he created the Star Wars universe. They are not the same universe. Go ask Lucas.

Okay then, shut the fuck up and get off a fucking STvsSW universe. Thats what we do, we wonder what would happen if they would fight, not if they exsist in each other's story worlds.

You say that the laws of physics are the same in each universe but I say they are not. In Star Wars there is a force in the universe called the Force. Why is it that the people of Star Trek have never heard of it?

Midichlorians obviously are not native to the AQ, thus no one there has access to the force. The force isn't something that can be detected by sensors, shown by the Imperial officers in ANH that considered it nothing more than a dead religion.

Why is there time travel in Star Trek? In Star Trek there is the Q , there is telepathy,even the space travel are different.

Different technologies and races. ST doesn't have power generation near the ammount in SW, so they have less powerful tech. Force users have telepathy.

If you take the information given to you by the movies and tv shows only then you will have to conclude that the way that each travels through space is different. How do you explain teleportation? Do you really think heisenberg compensators could exist in the Star Wars universe?

One plane uses propellers, the other uses jet engines, two different ways of travel through the air, but they are in the same universe.

Why wouldn't the Q get involved if the Federation fought the Empire?

Like he did with the Borg, and the Dominion, and the Breen, and the Scimitar, etc. etc. etc. Oh wait he didn't, all he did with the borg was show them to the Ent-D, and if he showed the Empire to the Feds years before they arrived they would still be fucked.

Time and time again the Q have come along and helped the Federation.

Really, cause all we was doing was testing the humans as a race to try a see if they were worthy to exsist. And as Voyager showed, there powers are not infinate, they are much weaker then they make themselves out to be.

What about the Prophets (or worm-hole-aliens as the Federation calls them) Why wouldn't they help?

When have they? When the dominion fleet was coming through their wormhole, then the dominion took control of the station? When the Feds tried to retake the station?

What about all the other many 'magical' beings in the Star Trek universe that could help?

That never have before...

You get to pick and choose things from the Star Wars universe that the Empire has so I will choose things from the Star Trek universe that they have used to defeat their foes and then use it to defeat the Empire.

Do you not see whats wrong with your statement, we get to pick from the Empire, you get to pick from everything in the Star Trek Universe, even though the debate is mostly emp vs feds, or emp vs feds and allies.

1.) Q he has helped the Federation many times

He tested humans.

2.) worm-hole-aliens (they have helped the Federation)

Barely

3.) Ocampa (from Voyager, many of them have 'magical' powers) Kes was one of them and she helped Voyager

One, and her powers weren't all that great . Plus they are kill able, and have short lifespans.

3.5) the 'Caretakers' who the Ocampa worships might help too

The caretaker's array pulled ships a distance that would take feds years to travel, but even civilian ships would at most take days to travel that distance. And his station was blown up with almost nothing compared to Imp weapons. AND the only way the Caretaker would help is if he resulted in the Empire being there in the first place, even though he wouldn't beable to do much if anything.

4.) the Traveler (from TNG who has more 'magical' powers) he helped the Enterprise

IIRC he was pretty nuetral, just like most every superbeing in ST they wouldn't or couldn't come to the rescue of the Fed.

The Empire has a lot of advanced technology that has been shown in the movies but not a lot of 'magical' powers.

The Federation doesn't have any magical powers, just some superbeings that have little or no interest in them, and seem to be completely unwilling to help them directly.

So there you have it, the Federation wins

So, space aliens come to destroy Earth, do you expect (insert diety here unless yoru aiethist) to intervine?

This site is so silly. I think it is fun to imagine what would happen if they did ever fight.

Did someone else write the first half of your post cause now you seem to get what the debate is about.

I still think it is impossible to tell but if you say the Empire wins, then I will say the Federation wins!

Well isn't this childish, what every we say, you'll say the opposite. I refuse to debate someone that can't masturbate, when your balls drop come back and maybe then. I'd respect what Mike Tyson says more than what you say.

You can examine Star Trek's Federation, and Star War's Empire, list the technology of both and compare the technology and man power and even 'magic' powers but that still does not mean that the Empire can defeat the Federation. You cannot predict what the Federation or the Empire will do when put in the unlikely situation of having to do battle with each other. For all you know, they might end up as friends

This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously. In a debate on who would win in a fight between the Federation and the Empire they wouldn't fight isn't a choice. IF your taking a math test, two trains are 500 miles apart on the same track, one is moving at 50 mph, the other a 200 mph where will they meet? If you select the answer "God would move them on different tracks", "They don't exsist in the same universe", or "They would stop and get on different tracks" I gareentee you'll get the wrong answer.

Is this mesage board for opinions or what? This is just my opinion. You do not have to agree or like it. This message board has over 1000 posts and topics. I can't read everything that has been written on the site. I have read enough. This is just my opinion, that's all. Don't take it too seriously.

No, it's for comparing facts, one ship has 200 gigaton weaponry, the other has 500 megaton shielding. The ships fires and hit the other ship, what happens? Your opinion doesn't matter. Logic dictates that the other ship will be obliterated.

I can't understand why are you people so damned angry. Maybe it is because the Empire has lost in battle to the Federation

We all have a pet peeve for ignorance and downright stupidity.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-06-20 10:17pm

Everyone else has done a sufficient job destroying most of the points you failed miserably in your attempt to make, Sar2, but I have a couple I want to mention.

1) In order to compare the Empire and the Federation effectively, you need to use the Federation in the far distant future because the Empire was a long time ago. How the hell does that make sense? Because the Star Wars movies supposedly took place centuries or millenium ago, the Federation should be given an additional few thousand years to develop technology before you compare the two?

2) Please, please, explain to me why the aggressively expansionistic Empire, which ruled the vast majority of an entire galaxy would suddenly decide to "be friends" with a piddly entity like the UFP which controls a measely 150 inhabited planets. Especially given that the Empire has an enormous technology edge over said Federation. More likely, if the Empire came into contact with the Federation, they'd use conquering it as a graduation excercise for that year's cadets.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-20 10:50pm

Sar2, I am the closest thing you have to an ally right now. You would be well advised to cease your current tactics and read up on the subject again. I myself am more then willing to provide you with some information to get you on the right track.

FYI, I am one of the very few trekkies on this board and I am one of the fewer still highly reguarded ones. Take that for what it is and heed my advice.

sar2 · Post by **sar2** » 2003-06-20 11:08pm

Kerneth wrote:Everyone else has done a sufficient job destroying most of the points you failed miserably in your attempt to make, Sar2, but I have a couple I want to mention.

1) In order to compare the Empire and the Federation effectively, you need to use the Federation in the far distant future because the Empire was a long time ago. How the hell does that make sense? Because the Star Wars movies supposedly took place centuries or millenium ago, the Federation should be given an additional few thousand years to develop technology before you compare the two?

2) Please, please, explain to me why the aggressively expansionistic Empire, which ruled the vast majority of an entire galaxy would suddenly decide to "be friends" with a piddly entity like the UFP which controls a measely 150 inhabited planets. Especially given that the Empire has an enormous technology edge over said Federation. More likely, if the Empire came into contact with the Federation, they'd use conquering it as a graduation excercise for that year's cadets.

The thing about them becoming friends is not meant to be taken seriously. Most of what I said was not meant to be taken seriously. Like the magical beings and all that stuff. It was just kidding!

Maybe you all cannot understand my opinion. My opinion is that you cannot decide who would win. I do not believe anyone here can predict what would happen if the two sides battled.
You take the Empire from Star Wars and create a list of its capabilities:

a
b
c

Then you take the Federation from Star Trek and create a list of its capabilites

e
f
g

If a,b, and c are greater than e,f, and g then that means that the Empire wins? If that is what this site is about, then of course the Empire wins. My point is that how can you tell what will happen if they really went to war?
I agree that the Empire has more power. I agree the Empire has faster ships, I agree the Empire can have better shields, the Empire can have better Sensors, better Communications, better everything.
I have read the descriptions. I agree that the Empire has all of these things. That still does not prove that the Empire can beat the Federation in a war. Anything can happen in a war. The Empire could destroy itself from the inside with corruption, the Federation could gain new technology, the Federation could go back in time like in First Contact or something, I have no idea what would happen!

How do you explain the defeat of the Empire by the Rebels?

If you take a list of all the capabilities of the Empire and all the capabilities of the rebels and place them side by side, then according to the reasoning of this site, then the rebels do not stand a chance.

I do not know what will happen if the Empire fought the Federation. So if you ask the question, 'What would happen if the Empire fought the Federation' I guess the most accurate answer would be: 'given the technology of the Empire, and manpower, it would appear that the Empire would win. '
I cannot answer what the Empire will do to attack, or how the Federation will defend it self or anything, if I am just comparing power, then the Empire has more power. I have never disagreed. How can anyone know what will happen in a war between the two?

But what if I ask 'What would happen if the Empire fought the Rebels?'

What would your answer be to that? If you look at what is shown in the movies, then the Empire has the advantage and the Empire should defeat the rebels.

Most of my posts have not been serious but I think many of the posters have taken my posts too serious. I am not taking any of the posts attacking me seriouosly. I thought it was just supposted to be fun!

The only 'true' way to test this theory would be to create a computer simulation. That way maybe we could all see who would win. What if there were a computer game with the Empire v.s. the Federation and the player plays the role of the Federation? Maybe most of the people playing it would lose, maybe 1 person would win? I don't know. And I don't think anyone can know.

That is my point. There is no way of knowing.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-20 11:15pm

That's the point of the site...literally.

You take

UFP resources, manpower, tech

vs

GE resources, manpower, tech.

It's literally the only way without going into everyone opinion of who should win in their minds.

And if you want to continue this objectively...fine, take Alyeska's words and advice...he will steer you in a fine direction.

If not...you'll be bombarded massively.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-06-20 11:20pm

sar2 wrote: How do you explain the defeat of the Empire by the Rebels?

The Empire was not defeated by the Rebels. The Emperor died, and with no clear line of succession, the Empire dissolved into civil war as governors and admirals tried to carve out empires of their own, and the Rebels picked up the pieces afterwards. Had Vader not turned and killed Palpatine, Luke would have been killed or turned, the Rebels would have lost the Battle of Endor, the DS2 would have been completed and the Emperor's reign would continue indefinitely.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-20 11:33pm

If there wasn't such a high crap volume I'd suspect troll drill

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-06-20 11:45pm

sar2 is now enshrined in my sig.

sar2 · Post by **sar2** » 2003-06-20 11:50pm

Alyeska wrote:Sar2, I am the closest thing you have to an ally right now. You would be well advised to cease your current tactics and read up on the subject again. I myself am more then willing to provide you with some information to get you on the right track.

FYI, I am one of the very few trekkies on this board and I am one of the fewer still highly reguarded ones. Take that for what it is and heed my advice.

Thank you for your advice and I have read plenty of what this site has. I really laughed at the Commandments of Science Fiction essay. I thought it was funny. This site is funny. Isn't it supposed to be fun? If you look in this 'Star Wars vs Star Trek' forum there is topic titled: 'Klingons versus Ewoks'. If you read it you will see that the posters are not going crazy and insulting anyone. If you take the technology , man power of the Klingons, and technology, man power of the Ewoks, then according to the reasoning of this site, the Klingons win. Some say the Ewoks win, and some say the Klingons win. No matter how ridiculous the reasons.
No one is yelling or threatning or anything like that.

I said it was my first post and I just wrote my opinion, that's all. I thought there was free speech on the internet. I didn't mean to make anyone crazy or anything.

You all have your opinion and I have mine. I don't know why everyone is taking it all so serious about this topic. Check out that Ewoks/Klingon topic
and explain to me why that is more or less serious than this topic.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-20 11:53pm

The biggest problem is you are saying the GE loses because you say Bad guys lose.

Literally...I might as well say that for any match up which is why they have leapt upon you.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-06-21 12:04am

sar2 wrote:I said it was my first post and I just wrote my opinion, that's all. I thought there was free speech on the internet. I didn't mean to make anyone crazy or anything.

Not when it is stupid.~Jason

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-21 12:11am

sar2 wrote:Thank you for your advice and I have read plenty of what this site has.

You have read SOME of what this site has. If you would bother to do further research you would find out my position here and just how friendly and important my warning was.

I really laughed at the Commandments of Science Fiction essay. I thought it was funny.

Some things are meant to be funny, others are not.

This site is funny. Isn't it supposed to be fun?

For us it is fun, but we still take it seriously. People who make a mistake and continue to make that mistake after having been corrected are not treated kindly.

If you look in this 'Star Wars vs Star Trek' forum there is topic titled: 'Klingons versus Ewoks'. If you read it you will see that the posters are not going crazy and insulting anyone. If you take the technology , man power of the Klingons, and technology, man power of the Ewoks, then according to the reasoning of this site, the Klingons win. Some say the Ewoks win, and some say the Klingons win. No matter how ridiculous the reasons.
No one is yelling or threatning or anything like that.

That is because the people in the thread are not acting like you.

I said it was my first post and I just wrote my opinion, that's all. I thought there was free speech on the internet. I didn't mean to make anyone crazy or anything.

First of all, Free Speech has to do with the government not being able to censor what you say. There is no such thing as free speech when you are on someones private domain. That said, you have not been silenced. Infact Free Speech has been championed in this thread. Rather then ban and silence you, people disagreed with you vocaly. That is a very important tennant of free speech. That said, the opinion you stated is very much incorrect.

You all have your opinion and I have mine. I don't know why everyone is taking it all so serious about this topic. Check out that Ewoks/Klingon topic
and explain to me why that is more or less serious than this topic.

We are taking it seriously because several aspects of the topic have to do with factual information. When people refuse to acknowledge the existance of factual information, that upsets us. There is such a thing as the rules of debate and you are violating them.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-21 12:32am

Stravo wrote:Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

Actually, the French had a larger and better equiped army at the time. The Germans just had better tatics and training.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 12:41am

sar2 wrote:You all have your opinion and I have mine.

Ah yes, the universal "agree to disagree" line. Works for any conceivable argument, in any conceivable situation, because it basically says nothing.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Star Trek federation clearly wins

Re: Star Trek federation clearly wins