Homosexuality: Genetics or Choice?

CrimsonRaine · Post by **CrimsonRaine** » 2003-06-21 12:09am

This is not a question whether homosexuality is wrong or right. It's ponderings of why certain individuals are straight or lean in other directions.

If you chose the "Other" option, please elaborate.

But I'm sure no matter what you chose, most are going to elaborate anyway.

Crimson Raine

PS - I decided I really need a nickname. PM ideas?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-21 12:17am

There is only one thing I can say with certainty.

It is 100% NOT choice.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 12:19am

Other.

Forcing us to choose between genetics and choice is a false dilemma, because you leave out the option of "environment".

Environment is neither genetics or choice, and it is an enormous factor in our psychological makeup.

By the way, "choice" is simply absurd. Does a young man sit up in bed one day and say "you know, I think I shall find girls attractive"? Of course not; he just feels that way, and he doesn't know how he became that way. There is no conscious choice.

Do you choose to be sexually attracted to certain people? Or does it just happen?

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2003-06-21 12:27am

Your environment has a large effect on who you are. For example, identical twins could be raised seperately, and have completely different heights among other things. If your parents are gay, your friends are gay or approve of it, then more than likely you're going to be that way. There are those that go the complete opposite way though. (just as my parents are protestants, and I'm an athiest...though they don't know it yet.)

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-06-21 12:32am

http://religioustolerance.org/hom_fixe.htm

Does a pretty good analysis...

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-21 12:40am

Vertigo1 wrote: If your parents are gay, your friends are gay or approve of it, then more than likely you're going to be that way. There are those that go the complete opposite way though. (just as my parents are protestants, and I'm an athiest...though they don't know it yet.)

My parents are straight.

Most of my friends qrowing up were straight, and did NOT approve of it.

This isn't a belief system, either. Beliefs can be indoctrinated, and beliefs can be chosen.
Homosexuality can be neither. But an acceptance can be indoctrinated, but that's a big difference.

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-06-21 12:44am

Frank Hipper wrote:
Vertigo1 wrote: If your parents are gay, your friends are gay or approve of it, then more than likely you're going to be that way. There are those that go the complete opposite way though. (just as my parents are protestants, and I'm an athiest...though they don't know it yet.)
My parents are straight.

Most of my friends qrowing up were straight, and did NOT approve of it.

This isn't a belief system, either. Beliefs can be indoctrinated, and beliefs can be chosen.
Homosexuality can be neither. But an acceptance can be indoctrinated, but that's a big difference.

Yes, that's a good point. I don't think environmental factors are that influential. Why would anyone become homosexual in our close-minded society? One's environment might only work to trigger a trait that is alread there.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-21 12:48am

Why would anyone make a choice that might induce his family to estrange him, make it more difficult for him to find a job, and earn scorns and dirty looks from self-righteous assholes? It's genetics.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 12:53am

Hobot wrote:Yes, that's a good point. I don't think environmental factors are that influential. Why would anyone become homosexual in our close-minded society? One's environment might only work to trigger a trait that is alread there.

I don't know if one can theorize how an environment might factor into homosexuality, but simply arguing that it won't happen because society frowns on homosexuality is a bit dicey. An upbringing is an extremely complex arrangement of variables, and it's pretty hard to theorize as to what might factor into something like that. It's a bit like asking how cold air causes rain when you don't understand how the environment works.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-21 12:55am

I would hesitate to stand firmly on genetics. There are other biological factors that could come into play, as well. I've heard theories from hormonal imbalances in the mother during pregnancy, to the obviously questionable "response to overpopulation".

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-06-21 12:58am

Hobot wrote:Yes, that's a good point. I don't think environmental factors are that influential. Why would anyone become homosexual in our close-minded society? One's environment might only work to trigger a trait that is alread there.

I think environmental factors can be very influential, though the general avoidance of sex in modern society makes them not as significant. One can take a look at, say, ancient Sparta and Athens to see the results of a society in which homosexuality/bisexuality was openly encouraged, and in fact was considered the norm.

Actually, I believe there is a modern society in which heterosexual sex is used only for procreation, and homosexual sex is encouraged for recreation, but I cannot remember where that is. I think I read something like that in Discover years ago. Has anyone heard of anything remotely like this, or am I dreaming it up?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-06-21 01:03am

I feel that there's a more biological than environmental cause to homosexuality, but I question how it can be due to genetics. Hormones in the womb seems the most realistic cause to me.

Now that doesn't take away environment from the game; men are always horny. Put them in a situation where there aren't any women to be had and viola, you've got the gay sailor and inmates with Big Bubba stereotypes.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-21 01:10am

Kuroneko wrote:Actually, I believe there is a modern society in which heterosexual sex is used only for procreation, and homosexual sex is encouraged for recreation, but I cannot remember where that is. I think I read something like that in Discover years ago. Has anyone heard of anything remotely like this, or am I dreaming it up?

I read in a novel that Arab society was like that, but novels are hardly evidence. But it was a seemingly well researched novel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 01:11am

Kuroneko wrote:Actually, I believe there is a modern society in which heterosexual sex is used only for procreation, and homosexual sex is encouraged for recreation, but I cannot remember where that is. I think I read something like that in Discover years ago. Has anyone heard of anything remotely like this, or am I dreaming it up?

I know that one. It's called "The Catholic Church".

Hobot · Post by **Hobot** » 2003-06-21 01:18am

Kuroneko wrote:
Hobot wrote:Yes, that's a good point. I don't think environmental factors are that influential. Why would anyone become homosexual in our close-minded society? One's environment might only work to trigger a trait that is alread there.
I think environmental factors can be very influential, though the general avoidance of sex in modern society makes them not as significant. One can take a look at, say, ancient Sparta and Athens to see the results of a society in which homosexuality/bisexuality was openly encouraged, and in fact was considered the norm.

Actually, I believe there is a modern society in which heterosexual sex is used only for procreation, and homosexual sex is encouraged for recreation, but I cannot remember where that is. I think I read something like that in Discover years ago. Has anyone heard of anything remotely like this, or am I dreaming it up?

Sorry I should have specified. I meant I don't think environmental factors contribute significantly to homosexuality in our society. If anything, they'd do more to discourage it than encourage it.

In ancient Greece, homosexual behaviour was common but I'm not sure if exclusively homosexual individuals were more common.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-06-21 01:19am

Darth Wong wrote:I know that one. It's called "The Catholic Church".

No no, youre confusing homosexuality and pedophilia. Lots of people do that.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-06-21 01:20am

But wasn't it men on boys?

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-06-21 01:32am

Darth Wong wrote:
Kuroneko wrote:Actually, I believe there is a modern society in which heterosexual sex is used only for procreation, and homosexual sex is encouraged for recreation, but I cannot remember where that is. I think I read something like that in Discover years ago. Has anyone heard of anything remotely like this, or am I dreaming it up?
I know that one. It's called "The Catholic Church".

Heh. I guess that does match the description. But no, I meant a separate society. Also, I meant "modern" as in "existing today", not "industrialized."

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2003-06-21 01:33am

kojikun wrote:No no, youre confusing homosexuality and pedophilia. Lots of people do that.

Pedophilia was definitely involved, but the relationships frequently continued long after that. It was particularly encouraged in the Spartan army.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-21 01:34am

Darth Wong wrote:
Kuroneko wrote:Actually, I believe there is a modern society in which heterosexual sex is used only for procreation, and homosexual sex is encouraged for recreation, but I cannot remember where that is. I think I read something like that in Discover years ago. Has anyone heard of anything remotely like this, or am I dreaming it up?
I know that one. It's called "The Catholic Church".

I am unamused.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-06-21 01:41am

It could be a recessive trait, but it's been a damned tricky gene to pin down if that's the case. Could it be that there's a recessive gene that makes one MORE LIKELY to be homosexual if the right environmental conditions exist?

At any rate, it's not a choice. I don't say, "Hmm, I think I'll be attracted to the chick at my job with whom I have no chance, the one with the huge tits and the boyfriend, rather than the sweet, mousy, plain girl who'd be better for me anyway." Attraction just is.

EDIT: Misplaced modifiers equal unintentional comedy.

EDIT: God damn it, this is the post that refuses to be right.

Drewcifer · Post by **Drewcifer** » 2003-06-21 02:37am

One of my best friends is gay, and I've spoken at length with him (and others) about how they feel about this issue. They all said genetics, and most knew (on some level) at a very young age that they were different from the other kids. Many came out in high school, and one later in his mid-twenties (he had a few girlfriends in high school. Said it was unbearably gross but he didn't know what else to do).

As well, I remember reading somewhere of a study in which they found that with identical twins, 75% had the same orientation, straight or gay.

Personally, I think it's mostly genetics, but with a significant dose of upbringing in the first few years of life. I don't mean that you could necessarily raise your kids to be one or the other, I just don't think that genetics is sole reason. The primary reason, to be sure, but not the end all source of one's favorite gender.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-06-21 03:22am

Homosexuality being a strictly inherited trait seems quite odd to me, since it's very counter-reproductive. I think it's the mother's usually recessive "me like boys" genes bullying themselves into the spotlight; just an accident in the case of embryo growth. This is also disregarding the hormones in the womb theory.

Not to childishly liberal-bash, mind you, I think many gays will say it's all genetics because that's the most liberal stand one can take on it. They've been told so much that it's "wrong" in this country that they'll take the most total opposite of that viewpoint, even to extremes.

I don't think it's genetics because like Kuroneko pointed out ancient civilizations embraced homosexuality. If it were truly genetically based then the "not from birth" homosexual men would find sex with other men just as upsetting as striaght men do nowadays.

Drewcifer · Post by **Drewcifer** » 2003-06-21 03:39am

UltraViolence83 wrote:Homosexuality being a strictly inherited trait seems quite odd to me, since it's very counter-reproductive...

There are many genetically based traits that don't contribute to reproduction in any way. As well, many fatal diseases are genentic. Remember, 'survival of the fittest' is a generalization, not a specification.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-06-21 04:45am

Ah, yes indeed. I'll still hold to the theory of womb and early childhood hormones effecting sexual preference most strongly, though.

I'm not ruling out genes totally, however. It's most likely that there are many different factors each of which can produce a born homosexual.

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