Yet more proof that KE weapons are not that special in SW

[His Divine Shadow]

In SW.

"Ten seconds," Han told Leia and Dorja, and reached for the triggers to the concussion-missile tubers.

Anticipation drew a metallic streak down his tongue. He felt a prickle of sweat on his scalp.

"Five." he triggered the first pair of concussion missiles, knowing that unlike the laser cannon, they did not strike at the speed of light."

"Two." Han triggered another pair of missiles. The Millenium Falcon's engines howled as they fought the pull of the dovin basal's gravity.

"Fire." the dovin basal swept past, and suddenly the display lit up with the six approaching coralskippers. The combined power of the eight turbolasers ifired straight at them.

The six coralskippers had also split into two Vs of three craft each, the formations on slightly diverging courses, but both formations were running into the Falcon and her armament at a combined velocity of over ninety percent of the speed of light. None of them had shifted their dovin basals to warp space defensively ahead of them, and the pilots had only an instant to perceive the doom staring them in the face, and no time to react. The first vic ran right into the first pair of missiles and the turbolaser fire, and all three erupted in fire as their coral hulls shattered into fragments.

(ref: Destiny's Way)

Point 1, laser cannons are stated to strike at the speed of light.

Point 2, missiles are faster than coralskippers(stated in Rebel Stand), it would logically have the most speed of the two, but a low-end figure can be gained by dividing the speed equally, wich gives us .45c velocities for the concussion missiles, so much for unsubstansiated notions of SW missiles not being capable of reaching such velocities.

The high-end version would have the coralskippers going at .1c wich is more likely due to reaction times of the pilots, wich means the missiles would be travelling at .8c instead.

Point 3, Yuuzhan Vong plasma weapons, on coral skippers are said to fire kg's of hot plasma, they are mostly comparable to turbolasers, no range advantages in tactical situations has been given to turbolasers either, strongly indicating that the YV plasma weapons fires kilograms of matter at high fractions of C, and infact, Coral Skippers can accelerate to fractions of C as we see, their weapons would at the very least be fired at fractions of C too to be usable.

Check mate I believe for the arguments that SW is somehow supposed to be extra vulnerable(for whatever unknown, unsubstansiated reason) to KE weapons.

[His Divine Shadow]

About missiles and decceleration.

In Rebel Stand there was a missile disguised with the gravitic signature of Jainas X-wing, wich cause a band of Coralskippers to pursue it, it looked like the x-wing was escaping, wich meant it was probably going at max acceleration, and this chase lasted a minimum of several minutes, let's say 2 minutes just to be conservative.

Anyhow the kicker is that towards the end, this missile did a 180 degree turn and flew back straight into the main guy's fighter before he even had time to react to what was happening.

This means that the missile was deccelerating from several minutes of fighter like acceleration(prolly around 5000G's, the missile wasn't going as fast as it could have, in order to fool the pursuers it was a fighter) in mere seconds, if not just a second, it happened at once, but lets say a generous three seconds to deccelerate only.

After 2 minutes of sustained 5000G's accel the missile would be travelling at 5900km/s

So, if we just account for the decceleration it would have been on the order of 200,000G's
So even with low-end calcs this means that SW missiles can reach speeds of .9c in minutes.

So much for that bonehead argument of them not using KE weapons cause the "they can't"

[omegaLancer]

Shadow you are the man.... I was looking for some quote showing the acceleration of a Concussion missiles.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, whats even more interesting are the Vong plasma weapons, several KG of plasma just from a coral skipper?
Imagine a capship then firing tons of hot plasma at what could be high fractions of C.

Those KE weapons aren't looking as dangerous now are they?

[Renewed_Valour1]

The six coralskippers had also split into two Vs of three craft each, the formations on slightly diverging courses, but both formations were running into the Falcon and her armament at a combined velocity of over ninety percent of the speed of light.

Point 2: The "Falcon and her armament" were closing on the three craft as the same combined velocity. I want you that special note of that critical and. That means that the Falcon was traveling at the same speed or maybe slightly slower than the missiles to be generous to you. Then the Falcon all ready launching it at such a high speed would have mostly imparted the speed of the missiles to it. So anything this indicates that the acceleration of Star Wars missiles suck.

A good kinetic missile would have been closing at well over 90 PSL head on against a target moving at that speed.

As for the second can you please spit out some quotes since you misinterpreted the language of the first one so I'd like to see the second one before taking it on face value.

[NecronLord]

tut tut

[His Divine Shadow]

Point 2: The "Falcon and her armament" were closing on the three craft as the same combined velocity. I want you that special note of that critical and. That means that the Falcon was traveling at the same speed or maybe slightly slower than the missiles to be generous to you. Then the Falcon all ready launching it at such a high speed would have mostly imparted the speed of the missiles to it. So anything this indicates that the acceleration of Star Wars missiles suck.

Actually no, that just shows how ludicrous and unseroius and biased and unreliable your interpreptation is since you seroiusly contemplate such ludicrous notions in the first place.

And we know from the movies they have around 72.000G-200.000G decceleration anyways.

The Falcons speed is unknown(but most likely low enough not to factor in), however it's idiotic to assume they would be travelling at the same speed or indeed any signifcant fraction of it due to what we know from the movies and other books already, from which ships are in the thousands of G's range.

Then factor in the little fact that the Falcon was fighting _against_ the pull of the Dovin Basals, it's not bloody likely to be going fast enough against them to actually matter.

A good kinetic missile would have been closing at well over 90 PSL head on against a target moving at that speed.

Your point being? And secondly, who gives a shit?
Anyone mentioned Andromeda in this Thread? Hello? No? well out the window it goes, weee, fly, fly, you're free!
(OK, sure so I'm hinting at it but I am being obnoxious right now)

As for the second can you please spit out some quotes since you misinterpreted the language of the first one so I'd like to see the second one before taking it on face value

I have not misinterprepted anything here.

Honestly, you can ask Macleod about it if you really want it, he prolly got it on hand, right now, I'm going out and I can't be arsed to wait for the scanner to warm up and OCR it in, infact this message is leaving me a little late already.

And since the movies already support these _facts_ and even higher acceleration figures for missiles, why bother?

Also, you screwed up interpreptation of that quote far worse than me by ignoring the fact that the Falcon is pulling against the Dovin Basals and only have accels in the thousands of G's max already.

Also you did not think of the approximate ranges, the time depicted from them firing and impacting is only a few seconds, and they where closing at the combined speed of 90PSL.

The Falcon was not about to hit for some time clearly, but the missiles where, wich means they streaked ahead quite fast, which means they'll be travelling pretty fast, and around the time of the impact the Falcon is apparently not anywhere near the Coral skippers or even in danger of hitting them or debris at high speeds.

It's likely the missiles covered the distance in a few seconds and the distance afterwards was high enough that even while closing at the combined speed of 90PSL was close enough not to pose an immediate threat to the falcon.

And again, given that the Falcons speed is only in the thousands of G's(not hundreds of thousands) range going by ICS stats, you're in real deep water now.

Besides, I am far more interested in heading to the pub than to scan in several pages of material right now.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also I just noticed, the turbolaser blasts took some time to hit the Coral Skippers too, indicating ranges in the light seconds.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also consider the fact about accelerations for such ships such as the MF, it would be extremely generous to give it 5000G's of decceleration, to deccelerate from 30PSL would take around 30 minutes, and this whole incident is measured in a few minutes.
And the Falcon expected to be able to execute a turn too around the mine, showing it could not have gone as fast as you would like it to.

Your interpreptation of that quote is simply too strict, we know they combined have a closing speed of 90PSL, but not which one stands for the most of the speed, well we do, since the ships known performances would not allow them to do such deccelerations, and we know missiles are supposed to be faster than the ships anyway, and the movies support such figures and also consider the problems if the MF traveled at those velocities(also consider how absurd it is in general), the missiles and TL blasts hit near simoultaneously, but if the missiles had only a negible speed advantage over the MF, the gunners would have had to be superhumans.

"The Millenium Falcon shuddered to the gravitic pull of the dovin basal. Han frowned as he checked the sublight engine readouts. He had hoped to whip around the space mine and exit with enough velocity to escape the dovin basal's gravity and get into hyperspace before the other flight of coralskippers could overtake him."

[Connor MacLeod]

And, if it would have taken the Falcon 30 min to decelerate at 30% of C and 5000 gees, why should the Falcon bother decelerating at all? The ideal choice would be to continue accelerating to increase the distance between them. The Coralskippers would have to decelerate in order to turn around in enough time to overtake them, which gives the Falcon even MORE time to open up the distance. Apparently, they were not able to do this, nor were they able to escape the Coralskippers. This implies that whatever their speed was, it was not a very significant portion of the "combined velocity of .9c" statement.

There are of course, other ways to interpret it.

[Connor MacLeod]

And further note that the Dovin Basal could not have been significantly decelerating the Falcon (or the other ships) either. Had it been strong enough to Decelerate a ship faster than the Falcon (or Coralskippers) could decelerate themselevs, the pull should have been strong enough to immobilize them (IE its "pull" would be stronger than any acceleration the Falcon could attempt) and it would not be able to move at all, period, or escape.

[His Divine Shadow]

Pg. 314:
======================
Leia watched it on the sensor board. It roared into the middle of the minefield, then slowly turned toward the distant engagement zone. It moved far more slowly than a missile should.
======================

There you have it, well this is not the same incident, but it's simulating the apperance of the Falcon.

Pg. 315:
======================
The bait[C-Missile] was an instrument package that used the Jaina Solo-developed technique of gravitic signature simulation. The missile she'd fired carried with it the exact gravitic signature of the Millennium Falcon
======================

These quotes also affirm that missiles are way faster than ships, and this and my other calc is also supported by the canon movie which has an absolute minimum of 75Kilogee's and upper limit of 200Kilogees of decceleration.

Acceleration is most likely to be higher than that given the thousand G accelerations depicted to fighters and ships from the ICS, whilst being in support of the movies too.

Moving on to the quote about the missile turning around:

Pg. 332:
======================
The distant missile code-named Goddess, and now, courtesy of Cilghal's biotechnical magic, characterized by the precise gravitic signature of Jaina's X-wing
...
Sharr kept the missile's speed down
...
======================

Pg. 334:
======================
And his opponent was good, as he knew Jaina Solo to be, but this day she was flying with more skillful reckless abandon than he had ever before seen, leading the coral skippers deep into the dovin basal minefield, doubtless hoping to elude them by passing through such a difficult and dangerous area at high speed.
======================
The missile that the Vong have mistaken for Jaina

Pg. 343-345:
======================
Her vehicle[the missile] whipped around the dovin basal mine and came straight back at him.
...
And when Charat Kraal finally saw his target, made it out for what it was-a missile, unarmed, faster than any starfighter or coralskipper when it chose to be
======================
And there it is.

[His Divine Shadow]

And we're still on the subject of the Vong plasma cannons wich fire kg's of plasma and are quite similar to TL's in most respects, wich still would mean that every Vong plasma shot is one taken at quite high velocities.

Unless there has been mention of a specific range advantage conferred to the NR, but I haven't seen it.

[Master of Ossus]

HDS, not to damage your figures or anything, but I think that the missile used a nearby dovin basal to help it turn around. The point is still valid. Luke's torpedos pulled tens of thousands of G forces, and concussion missiles are designed to be faster and more maneuverable even than torpedoes, I'm just not sure how much that particular incident can be used to calculate deceleration values. Also, the acceleration of an X-Wing is probably far in excess of 5000G's. The Slave 1, IIRC, can do 5000 G's, and it is very much more massive than an X-Wing.

[Connor MacLeod]

HDS, not to damage your figures or anything, but I think that the missile used a nearby dovin basal to help it turn around. The point is still valid. Luke's torpedos pulled tens of thousands of G forces, and concussion missiles are designed to be faster and more maneuverable even than torpedoes, I'm just not sure how much that particular incident can be used to calculate deceleration values. Also, the acceleration of an X-Wing is probably far in excess of 5000G's. The Slave 1, IIRC, can do 5000 G's, and it is very much more massive than an X-Wing.

Slave 1, as per the Ep2 ICS, can do 2500 g's.

[His Divine Shadow]

[Q]HDS, not to damage your figures or anything, but I think that the missile used a nearby dovin basal to help it turn around. The point is still valid. Luke's torpedos pulled tens of thousands of G forces, and concussion missiles are designed to be faster and more maneuverable even than torpedoes, I'm just not sure how much that particular incident can be used to calculate deceleration values.[/Q]

Well because the missile traversed the entire minefield of these babies and they did not affect it in any real way, they just tried following it, in order to actually be affected by the missile, it would have to deccelerate alot.
The gravity helped it to turn yeah, but it had to shed probably all of it's velocity for that.
And given the generosity of my calc figures in the first place, they're still prolly too low.
Sure we cannot get exact figures, but they are supporting figures for the more high-end movie calcs.

[Master of Ossus]

Well because the missile traversed the entire minefield of these babies and they did not affect it in any real way, they just tried following it, in order to actually be affected by the missile, it would have to deccelerate alot.
The gravity helped it to turn yeah, but it had to shed probably all of it's velocity for that.
And given the generosity of my calc figures in the first place, they're still prolly too low.
Sure we cannot get exact figures, but they are supporting figures for the more high-end movie calcs.

True.