Star Trek federation clearly wins

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-21 12:56am

Sar2, who told you about this and where (which site) are you from?

BTW, you have already made yourself qualified to get a VI title, so if you intned to stay, I suggest you bone up on your ST and SW.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-06-21 01:03am

That is my point. There is no way of knowing.

Your argument in a nutshell. Now, do you honestly believe that every Imperial ship's guns will jam at the same time, every shield will fail, all power will be deactivated onboard their vessels (every one, because just one left active could roast the entire Federation fleet combined), and every stormtrooper's gun will jam once the boarding parties beam over, giving the Federation an entire fleet of godly technology at their disposal? Sure, it's POSSIBLE. But is it plausable? Can you look at this situation and say "It could happen, so the victory is up in the air." Because this is the ONLY way to victory for them. One chance, the complete and utter failure of every Imperial device on every ship in their entire fleet will prevent them from winning.

sar2 · Post by **sar2** » 2003-06-21 02:45am

XaLEv wrote:The Empire was not defeated by the Rebels. The Emperor died, and with no clear line of succession, the Empire dissolved into civil war as governors and admirals tried to carve out empires of their own, and the Rebels picked up the pieces afterwards. Had Vader not turned and killed Palpatine, Luke would have been killed or turned, the Rebels would have lost the Battle of Endor, the DS2 would have been completed and the Emperor's reign would continue indefinitely.

And why couldn't that same thing happen if the Empire fought the Federation? I don't know? Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I have no idea and I am not trying to say it will or it won't.

Admiral Johnason wrote:Sar2, who told you about this and where (which site) are you from?

BTW, you have already made yourself qualified to get a VI title, so if you intned to stay, I suggest you bone up on your ST and SW.

(What is a VI title?)
I was reading a message in the startrek forum (on startrek.com) and it had a link to this site. I read some of it, thought it was funny so I posted my opinion. I still don't think it should be taken so seriously. I am not even trying to argue that the Federation will win or lose.

Alyeska wrote: We are taking it seriously because several aspects of the topic have to do with factual information. When people refuse to acknowledge the existance of factual information, that upsets us. There is such a thing as the rules of debate and you are violating them.

What factual information have I refused to acknowledge? I have said that the Empire has better technology and everything. I just said I don't know what will happen in a war.

I was not trying to get into a debate, I was just writing my opinions. I still can't understand why there is so much anger at my post, which was not serious.
Don't be

be

I had no idea that this was such a touchy subject.

I have learned alot by posting and reading these replies and I won't be posting about this subject anymore!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 02:54am

sar2 wrote:And why couldn't that same thing happen if the Empire fought the Federation? I don't know? Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I have no idea and I am not trying to say it will or it won't.

Obviously, you are not good with numbers.

What factual information have I refused to acknowledge? I have said that the Empire has better technology and everything. I just said I don't know what will happen in a war.

This is like saying that you're not sure whether an Abrams can take out a Pinto unless you actually see it first.

I was not trying to get into a debate, I was just writing my opinions. I still can't understand why there is so much anger at my post, which was not serious.
Don't be be

Your post stirred up anger because you were insulting. There are many ways to be insulting besides something as direct as "you're a fucking asshole". You can insult someone by simply ignoring what he says, thus insulting him with contempt. Also, you can tell him to "watch the movies" in order to see the evidence for your viewpoint even though it's abundantly clear that he has watched them much more thoroughly than you.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-21 03:05am

sar2 wrote:
XaLEv wrote:The Empire was not defeated by the Rebels. The Emperor died, and with no clear line of succession, the Empire dissolved into civil war as governors and admirals tried to carve out empires of their own, and the Rebels picked up the pieces afterwards. Had Vader not turned and killed Palpatine, Luke would have been killed or turned, the Rebels would have lost the Battle of Endor, the DS2 would have been completed and the Emperor's reign would continue indefinitely.
And why couldn't that same thing happen if the Empire fought the Federation? I don't know? Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I have no idea and I am not trying to say it will or it won't.

The warlords will not dissolve into civil war if they have a common enemy. Whitness Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai Shek during WW2.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-21 03:14am

Howedar wrote:The warlords will not dissolve into civil war if they have a common enemy. Whitness Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai Shek during WW2.

Poor example. Even after the Japanese began their general invasion of China in 1937 and defeated a fair sized nationalist army at Shanghai Chiang Kai Shek planned to continue his offensive against the communists. He only stopped when his own troops arrested him and demanded that he turn the full weight of the army against Japan.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-21 03:23am

Really? Didn't know that.

At any rate, it seems quite likely that the Moffs and Grand Admirals will deal with outside threats before internal issues.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-06-21 03:27am

So the villan can never win, eh? Somebody find a medium. We need to inform George Orwell (1984), F. Scott Fitzgerald (The Great Gatsby), Ken Kesey (One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest), Tennessee Williams (A Streetcar Named Desire) and any number of other authors that they've violated an unbreakable tenent of literature! Heavens, I'm guilty of this unforgivable sin as well--in my current project, the protagonist dies in a car wreck a beaten, heartbroken, burnt-out shell of a man. I shall go back into the outline and change the ending to so the hero gets the girl, hits the lottery, and drinks the Elixir of Life and lives happily ever after.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-06-21 06:14am

sar2 wrote:
XaLEv wrote:The Empire was not defeated by the Rebels. The Emperor died, and with no clear line of succession, the Empire dissolved into civil war as governors and admirals tried to carve out empires of their own, and the Rebels picked up the pieces afterwards. Had Vader not turned and killed Palpatine, Luke would have been killed or turned, the Rebels would have lost the Battle of Endor, the DS2 would have been completed and the Emperor's reign would continue indefinitely.
And why couldn't that same thing happen if the Empire fought the Federation? I don't know? Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I have no idea and I am not trying to say it will or it won't.

They have to kill the Emperor first, and since the Emperor is probably safe in Coruscant most of the time

sar2 wrote:(What is a VI title?)
I was reading a message in the startrek forum (on startrek.com) and it had a link to this site. I read some of it, thought it was funny so I posted my opinion. I still don't think it should be taken so seriously. I am not even trying to argue that the Federation will win or lose.

VI = Village Idiot. You can think of it as a "halfway house" between a normal, reasonably respected denizen and getting banned outright.

sar2 wrote:What factual information have I refused to acknowledge? I have said that the Empire has better technology and everything. I just said I don't know what will happen in a war.

Yes, you don't know 100%. But you can take what we have (that the Empire's military abilities is superior in just about every quantifiable variable, often by orders of magnitude so it ain't even a close contest) and conclude that the Federation's chances of victory are about 1 out of maybe 1E10 or more. That's plenty good enough for most of us.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-21 08:16am

It's long time ago, since I last heared so much ST mumbo-jumbo together in one poster. Some people never learn, that the cruel truth, no way around it.
I think, VI would be a very fitting title.
By the way, he somehow reminds me of Souverign. After the Darkstar-Cone now the Souverign-Clone....

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-06-21 08:24am

Heh, I'll have a Darkstar-Cone with sprinkles, please.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2003-06-21 08:54am

sar2 wrote:
XaLEv wrote:The Empire was not defeated by the Rebels. The Emperor died, and with no clear line of succession, the Empire dissolved into civil war as governors and admirals tried to carve out empires of their own, and the Rebels picked up the pieces afterwards. Had Vader not turned and killed Palpatine, Luke would have been killed or turned, the Rebels would have lost the Battle of Endor, the DS2 would have been completed and the Emperor's reign would continue indefinitely.
And why couldn't that same thing happen if the Empire fought the Federation? I don't know? Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I have no idea and I am not trying to say it will or it won't.

Because, even though the Rebels were out numbered they were still on the same tech level. The weapons, shields, sub light, FTL, and sensors were on the same level; so they were able to fight back in certain situations. Something the Feds are unable to do, due to their much lower tech level.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-06-21 10:03am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Howedar wrote:The warlords will not dissolve into civil war if they have a common enemy. Whitness Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai Shek during WW2.
Poor example. Even after the Japanese began their general invasion of China in 1937 and defeated a fair sized nationalist army at Shanghai Chiang Kai Shek planned to continue his offensive against the communists. He only stopped when his own troops arrested him and demanded that he turn the full weight of the army against Japan.

The Xian Incident happened in 1936.

Also, Mao and the commies were having a nice time in the 8 years while Chiang was fighting the Japs.

But to the warlords fighting each other in SW vs. ST, highly unlikely, IMHO some would just stay low and watch, after seeing the superior firepower of the Empire, they either get some popcorn or join for spoils.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-06-21 10:34am

Howedar wrote:Really? Didn't know that.

At any rate, it seems quite likely that the Moffs and Grand Admirals will deal with outside threats before internal issues.

I doubt it. The Moffs are notoriously petty and selfish rulers.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-21 11:00am

sar2 wrote: You all have your opinion and I have mine. I don't know why everyone is taking it all so serious about this topic. Check out that Ewoks/Klingon topic
and explain to me why that is more or less serious than this topic.

Because historically other people have taken this topic much more seriously than that topic.

Seriously, I think he has a point--if you take the political situation into account, the Empire goes down without fighting anybody. If you take the political situation into account, the Rebel Alliance rises up a few years after the rise of the Empire, and topples the Empire a few years later. (don't really know about the dates) The Feds could just cower in some hole in the uncharted backwaters of their galaxy and wait for everything to blow over and then come out to declare victory

Positing an Empire existing without the Rebels is simply unrealistic because the Rebels were a natural result of the political situation in the Empire.

Now the Old and New Republics, on the other hand...

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-21 12:39pm

JodoForce wrote:
sar2 wrote: You all have your opinion and I have mine. I don't know why everyone is taking it all so serious about this topic. Check out that Ewoks/Klingon topic
and explain to me why that is more or less serious than this topic.
Because historically other people have taken this topic much more seriously than that topic.

Seriously, I think he has a point--if you take the political situation into account, the Empire goes down without fighting anybody. If you take the political situation into account, the Rebel Alliance rises up a few years after the rise of the Empire, and topples the Empire a few years later. (don't really know about the dates) The Feds could just cower in some hole in the uncharted backwaters of their galaxy and wait for everything to blow over and then come out to declare victory Positing an Empire existing without the Rebels is simply unrealistic because the Rebels were a natural result of the political situation in the Empire.

Now the Old and New Republics, on the other hand...

The Rebels won by a long series of good luck, the Force, stupidity on the part of the enemy, and sheer probability. Their chances were less than 1 in 5 million.

You should know that by now, JodoForce.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-21 03:46pm

sar2 wrote:
Stravo wrote:Seriously, is this a joke? You really thought this all up by yourself? So by your logic teh French should have defated the Nazis in 1940 when they invaded because the Nazis were the badguys, right?

Do you seriously see how fucked up this scenario is. A flotilla of Stardestroyers could take the entire AQ and probably the galaxy let alone the entire Imperial warmachine and the best you can come up with is Trek are the good guys? Since when are Communists good guys by the by?
I am amazed at how fast my post was replied to! I have been reading more and more from this site and it appears to be an anti-StarTrek site! Now I see it really does not matter what my opinion is. You cannot compare the French fighting the Nazis with the Federation fighting the Empire. In the real world you cannot just label one group as a villain and one group as a hero.

Ok, I'm going to let anyone else deal with nost of this shit, except fir this one fucking point:

How the fuck can you not clearly and simply label the Nazis as the "bad guys"? We are talking about the group that started what was probably the single most destructive war this planet has ever seen, and had mass organized genocide. How the fuck can you claim that that was not evil that that they wouldnt' qualify as the "villians"?

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-06-21 03:50pm

SAR2 wrote:I agree that the Empire has more power. I agree the Empire has faster ships, I agree the Empire can have better shields, the Empire can have better Sensors, better Communications, better everything.
I have read the descriptions. I agree that the Empire has all of these things. That still does not prove that the Empire can beat the Federation in a war

That's going in my possible sig libruary.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-06-21 03:53pm

Sar2 you obviously didn't read the announcements forum before you posted for the 1st time. A forgivable offence many newbies commit but when a link to a page that could have corrected you was put up you seem to have ignored it and decided we are anti-Trek. Sure we're anti Trek thats why we have a Forum for Star Trek only discussions and a Trekkie is a mod in the place

Are you here to post serriously? Because you look like a man flame baiting.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-06-21 04:07pm

2000AD wrote:
SAR2 wrote:I agree that the Empire has more power. I agree the Empire has faster ships, I agree the Empire can have better shields, the Empire can have better Sensors, better Communications, better everything.
I have read the descriptions. I agree that the Empire has all of these things. That still does not prove that the Empire can beat the Federation in a war
That's going in my possible sig libruary.

LOL

Boy I got a kick out of that!!! ROFL ~Jason

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-21 04:42pm

This is my first post, my first day visiting this site and reading it. I have not read many posts either. I agree that the Empire from Star Wars has more fire power but it just could not beat the Star Trek Federation. The Empire has too many inept soldiers.

You should have read not only the posts, but Mikes site also, because then you perhaps woudn't have spilled out that garbage on us. And by the way. You say that the entire Imperial military is incompetent, because of some you see?! Did it ever occur to you, that the Empire spanned and controlled an entire galaxy?!
The only thing, the Federtion got is the immense might of Technobabble.

The other thing that has to be realized is that the Empire is the 'villain' so they are designed with flaws so they can be defeated. The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners. What if the rebels from Star Wars battled the villains from Star Trek?

See Mikes site for that favourite Trekkie arguments: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trekkie.html

Now if the Federation were fighting the rebels (Luke, Han and etc...) then
it is harder to say who would win. The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies)
The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

Total bullshit! The Rebels have
a)MUCH more firepower than the entire Federation
and b)even they have more ships than the UFP. (Remember, mere shipping companies got thousands of ships)

When any two armies battle each has strength (number of soldiers, firepower, territory, etc...) , intelligence ( the skills of the leaders and soliders), and luck. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck. This is why the ewoks defeated them! Now if you assign equal strength, intelligence and luck to the Empire and the Federation then they will never beat each other. If you use the abilities from the movie(s) and tv show(s) then there is no way the Empire could beat the Federation, especially the TNG. (They might not even be able to defeat Kirk's Federation) The Empire lacks the intelligence (and since they are the villain, they lack the luck) to defeat the Federation which has more than enough intelligence and luck.

I really wonder, what grass did you smoke? That's one of the most idiotic things I ever heared!

You do not write fictional stories and have the villains win.

Did I mention, that I write a fiction, were the Empire wins?

Is the main reason for this site is to bash Star Trek?

No, the main reason is to show idiots like you, that thier beloved Ferderation is only a small player in the great game, while the Empire is a bigger one.

If the Federation were all powerful (like you believe the Empire to be), then there would be no conflict in the series and the show would become boring.

Well, the Empire IS very, VERY powerfull.....

I really wonder, why we still get people such as him.....[/quote]

Micheal Ryans, Beta pilot · Post by **Micheal Ryans, Beta pilot** » 2003-06-21 05:04pm

Ah, I might as well refute this. Everyone else has I know, but this is good practice.

sar2 wrote:This is my first post, my first day visiting this site and reading it. I have not read many posts either. I agree that the Empire from Star Wars has more fire power but it just could not beat the Star Trek Federation. The Empire has too many inept soldiers.

Strange that when they were ordered to take a heavily defended chokepoint, they did it quickly effeciently, and with only two casualties (ANH, the boarding of the Tantive IV).

The other thing that has to be realized is that the Empire is the 'villain' so they are designed with flaws so they can be defeated. The Federation is the 'hero' so they would have to be the winners. What if the rebels from Star Wars battled the villains from Star Trek?

The rebels could thrash most races from ST easily. And I don't suppose you can enlighten us as to what these flaws the UFP can exploit are? The only one I can see is arrogance, and given the firepower disparity, even that isn't major disadvantage.

Now if the Federation were fighting the rebels (Luke, Han and etc...) then it is harder to say who would win. The Federation has the advantage in fire power and numbers. (Especially if you include the Federation's allies) The rebels have an advantage in that they have the Force.

No, the Alliance has vastly superior ships, and most likely, given the shear scale of most SW wars, more of them. Throw in the Romulans and Klingons, and the only difference is how long things take.

When any two armies battle each has strength (number of soldiers, firepower, territory, etc...) , intelligence ( the skills of the leaders and soliders), and luck. The Empire has a lot of strength , but not a lot of intelligence or luck. This is why the ewoks defeated them!

They were beating the ewoks, up until one of their own vehicles was turned against them.

Now if you assign equal strength, intelligence and luck to the Empire and the Federation then they will never beat each other. If you use the abilities from the movie(s) and tv show(s) then there is no way the Empire could beat the Federation, especially the TNG. (They might not even be able to defeat Kirk's Federation) The Empire lacks the intelligence (and since they are the villain, they lack the luck) to defeat the Federation which has more than enough intelligence and luck.

If we use the abilities from the ST series and films, and the SW films, then the federation still looses, no matter what you say should have. There's very little that can handle overwhelming firepower.

There is more than enough examples in each movie to show this. Just watch the movies and you will see!

Then please give me these examples, as I've never heard of them.

And why couldn't that same thing happen if the Empire fought the Federation? I don't know? Maybe it could, maybe it couldn't. I have no idea and I am not trying to say it will or it won't.

Because there is no way in hell they're actually going to get close enough to the Emperor to do anything to him. And if they try and assainate him, can you say 'force lighting fried feddies'?

I really needed the practice.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-06-21 05:29pm

Just a little pet peeve here but I hate it when people try defend themselves when someone insults them when they post something, or when something they post is deleted, by beating off to the First Amendment. 1) The internet is an International community, and the rights of one country don't aply here. 2) Forums are privately owned, and if people who troll did this in real life(i.e. walked onto Wong's lawn and called him a gapping vagina) they would be arrested.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-06-21 07:16pm

sar2 wrote:The thing about them becoming friends is not meant to be taken seriously. Most of what I said was not meant to be taken seriously. Like the magical beings and all that stuff. It was just kidding!

Well, if you say so...

sar2 wrote:Maybe you all cannot understand my opinion. My opinion is that you cannot decide who would win. I do not believe anyone here can predict what would happen if the two sides battled.
You take the Empire from Star Wars and create a list of its capabilities:
a
b
c
Then you take the Federation from Star Trek and create a list of its capabilites

e
f
g

I think you got the basic process correct.

sar2 wrote:If a,b, and c are greater than e,f, and g then that means that the Empire wins? If that is what this site is about, then of course the Empire wins. My point is that how can you tell what will happen if they really went to war?
I agree that the Empire has more power. I agree the Empire has faster ships, I agree the Empire can have better shields, the Empire can have better Sensors, better Communications, better everything.
I have read the descriptions. I agree that the Empire has all of these things. That still does not prove that the Empire can beat the Federation in a war. Anything can happen in a war. The Empire could destroy itself from the inside with corruption, the Federation could gain new technology, the Federation could go back in time like in First Contact or something, I have no idea what would happen!

Yeah, and how likely are those events in your assessment? We don't have clear evidence it'd take place, so the probability would be quite low. For your possibilities:
1) If Endor (and the start of the Empire disorganization and subsequent fall) is done only one day after the fleet is sent, it is probably too late. In the confusion, no one would really remember the fleet, and it'd probably carry out its last orders - probe and destroy/occupy Federation.
2) Most of the tech is ST ain't good enough, and if they are good enough, they are probably too advanced for the Feds to quickly assimilate.
3) If they go back in time, most likely they'd fall in an alternate timeline. The original timeline still says Fed defeat.

sar2 wrote:How do you explain the defeat of the Empire by the Rebels?

If you take a list of all the capabilities of the Empire and all the capabilities of the rebels and place them side by side, then according to the reasoning of this site, then the rebels do not stand a chance.

Sure, they are lucky and they're good, but the real Master Factor is that they have comparable tech and it was never the whole Empire versus them. Even at Endor, it was all of them (or so the officials would say) versus 1 Sector Group's worth or so (some would argue this is mere minimalism.) 1 Sector Group, out of thousands. That was supposedly a big engagement. Along with internal squabbles after the Emperor died, the Rebels did a "defeat in detail." They won by guerilla warfare.

Unfortunately, the Feddies can't even do that. The disparity assessment has matured to the point that the Federation can't even defeat a minimal "unit" of Imperial power. I think we'd agree that if the Empire chooses to engage the Federation at all, it'd send at least a Line (one Star Destroyer, or a few frigates, or several corvettes) and more likely a squadron (four to eight of those lines.) If the Federation can't sink even that, then the fact that the Empire will not use their whole strength doesn't matter.

Mike Wong once said that the Empire can squash the Federation like a bug, and that even without the numerical advantage, the Empire will quash the Federation like a bug.

That's back then. By now, the situation has deteriorated to more like even with one ship, the Empire can squash the Federation like a bug...

sar2 wrote:I do not know what will happen if the Empire fought the Federation. So if you ask the question, 'What would happen if the Empire fought the Federation' I guess the most accurate answer would be: 'given the technology of the Empire, and manpower, it would appear that the Empire would win. '
I cannot answer what the Empire will do to attack, or how the Federation will defend it self or anything, if I am just comparing power, then the Empire has more power. I have never disagreed. How can anyone know what will happen in a war between the two?

They don't know exactly. But they can look at what they do have and assess the odds. The odds for the Federation really suck.

sar2 wrote:The only 'true' way to test this theory would be to create a computer simulation. That way maybe we could all see who would win. What if there were a computer game with the Empire v.s. the Federation and the player plays the role of the Federation? Maybe most of the people playing it would lose, maybe 1 person would win? I don't know. And I don't think anyone can know.

That is my point. There is no way of knowing.

We can imagine such a computer game, even though the disparity is probably too far to truly need one of those.

1) Double click on icon: "Star Trek vs Star Wars, the simulation."
2) Click: New Game, then select a simple scenario, such as "Direct Invasion."
3) Click: "Dificulty Level: Level 0" so the computer doesn't get too smart.
4) Select: "God Eye's View" so you can at least see the approximate location of major enemy units (you can't target them, but at least you can see them.) And be sure to click on "Instant Communications" so Star Destroyers don't show up before anybody can even warn you of them.
5) Select Side: Federation
6) Click "Start."

After a long wait, the ultra-high resolution, Federation style command screen shows up on the monitor, complete with the infamous Okudagrams and touch screen mockups.

Oh, I almost forgot. There's a bit of introduction text. It explains that the Federation had recently discovered a wormhole near, but not in, their space. The two vessels that made the discovery had one of their number enter the wormhole. It promptly disappeared. The partner ship sent a message back. The game begins now.

On the screen is a Strategic Map, showing you the Federation, its approximately 150 major member worlds, and any colonies it has. There are some buttons allowing you to access the Fleet Command, Diplomacy (who knows, maybe you can find yourself an ally) and so on.

On a random location on the screen appears a Gray icon, representing an Imperial unit that has entered the ST galaxy, presumably through a wormhole about a month's travel away from the farthest reach of the Federation border. The Gray icon briefly turns Yellow as the partner vessel acquires the Imperial warship. You click on the Yellow icon to see what details you can come up with. The Patrol vessel sends back data.

The picture changes to a 3D rotatable figure of an Imperator Star Destroyer. Your patrol vessel is unable to scan any details for itself, but at least you have a one up by knowing that SD.net denizens programmed this simulation, and you know about what they entered for the ship's capabilities. You also know that because it is Level 0, the computer commander is probably not based on Thrawn. Somebody dumber. Probably the perhaps overly aggressive Captain Brandei of Judicator or the perhaps overly cautious Captain Pellaeon of Chimaera. (Current or Near-Future Computer AI probably couldn't sim Thrawn properly anyway.)

Apparently, the randomizer might have just chosen Brandei, for the Blue Dot representing a Nebula-class starship disappears off your charts within a minute of the game starting without half an attempt at negotiation. It has either been disabled enough that communications is lost or totally killed. The dot turns Red for a second to show it is a hostile, then turns Gray as Judicator clears datum... No doubt it is now capturing/recovering what's left of the Nebula and sending out probes... finding the Federation for an attack.

Now, what do you do? Think of something concrete that the Federation would likely do. Remember that this is a VERY realistic computer game. Imperial characters act in character. So do ST characters. You are not even in complete control of the Federation. If you propose something immoral by Federation standards, someone will stop you or refuse to carry out the order. If you propose something they are not capable of, they'd either tell you or they'd try and fail. A possible but unlikely-to-succeed idea will probably Fail. That further limits your options, but it matches the general debate standard that we debate "STvsSW" and not "ST controlled by Me versus SW controlled by You."

(You can occasionally do the latter, but you must mention it in your first post, and it'd have a higher probability of a good reception if you use a Genuinely New Scenario and are a Reasonably Established Debater.)

Think about it some. Remember that what is acceptable in a FanFic won't be necessarily acceptable in a debate (FanFic standards of evidence, the necessity of using lower limit, and realistic behavior are somewhat looser, sometimes quite loose, and often in favor of ST) And that even if a trick works once, it probably won't work again if the computer's "dice roll" decides the Empire wants to keep trying.

If you actually got a great method with a good chance of success even with this relatively simple scenario, bring it up, with full evidence and logic. Don't bother unless you are quite sure it would really Work, because ISD vs whole Fed threads are well, common enough that you'd really need a good idea to avoid being flamed for repetition. I hadn't seen one yet, but maybe you can work a miracle.

By the way, you can see the current disparity by seeing the contents of the threads. It is no longer Fed vs Empire or even Imp Sector Group vs Fed. It is ISD vs Fed, or even Corvette vs Fed and TIE Fighter Wing vs Fed. Oh, how Trek has fallen!

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-21 09:15pm

YT300000 wrote:
The Rebels won by a long series of good luck, the Force, stupidity on the part of the enemy, and sheer probability. Their chances were less than 1 in 5 million.

You should know that by now, JodoForce.

No, calculated to the nearest integer the chances were 1 in 4 million 9 hundred 34 thousand 5 hundred and 69 [/Data]

Seriously, I guess you're right, but since the defeat of the Empire by the Rebels is part of the canon, it can arguably be brought into the discussion on the same basis as canon events for the assessment of firepower. Hence the strategy of holing up, waiting for it to blow over and then coming out to declare victory is possible for the feds against the canon Empire.

Not the way you usually debate though

Although the Empire Remnant may decide to keep the Feds' universe for various reasons...

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Star Trek federation clearly wins

Re: Star Trek federation clearly wins

SAR2