Tired of Sheep Being Referred to as "Americans"

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-22 03:00am

(I posted this first a few days ago at TrekBBS. Enjoy, discuss and/or rip to shreds, as you see fit.)

Tired of Sheep Being Referred to as "Americans"

Yeah, you know who I'm talking about.

Those of you who want cradle-to-grave care, who think your security can be bought at the cost of my liberty, who think your need is a just claim on the work and property of others.

Yes, you there. Who think rights are a gift from the state, and that we are all beholden to the will and whim of majority.

Yeah, you - you who want the subsidy and bailout for your business. Your healthcare, food and shelter guaranteed by the gub'mint. You who think one person's gain is another person's loss.

Don't slink away. I'm talking to you - Mr. "People need to be protected by government from things that offend their delicate sensibilities." You, Mrs. "Government's role is to protect people from the consequences of their own stupidity." You, Dr. "The State knows better than people how to run their own lives, businesses and endeavors." And you, Professor "People are a means to government's ends."

Yeah, you have the right to your opinion, ignorant and gelded as it is. But do me a favor, sheepling.

Stop calling yourselves "Americans." That's a name for a breed that was never saddle broke.

-SR

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-22 03:14am

You know, this kind of inflammatory shit makes it quite difficult to be a libertarian. Do try to be a little less callous. It's this callousness that will never enable us to reclaim the moral high ground, which we've long since lost (if we even ever had it).

I don't really fault the majority of the people on the government teat. They do it because they can, not because they are inherently greedy, lazy, or shiftless. And their state of poverty is essentially rewarded by the government, which is the fault of the government for perpetuating the cycle.

No one interpret this as me being buddy-buddy with Storky here, please. Just stating my opinion.

Acacia · Post by **Acacia** » 2003-06-22 03:32am

I understand individual welfare, helping to keep people from starving, dying or living on the street. Especially, temporary assistance in times of need.

But I have never understood business welfare. Buisnesses really should live and die on their own merits, in my opinion. If they can't make it, tough, they should not artificially succeed on the backs of taxpayers.

That is my opinion.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-22 03:34am

Durran Korr wrote:You know, this kind of inflammatory shit makes it quite difficult to be a libertarian. Do try to be a little less callous. It's this callousness that will never enable us to reclaim the moral high ground, which we've long since lost (if we even ever had it).

I can't use my eyes not to see, or my mind not to reason and judge.

If truth is hurtful, is it the fault of the truth teller, or those who see it, but don't wish to?

I don't really fault the majority of the people on the government teat. They do it because they can, not because they are inherently greedy, lazy, or shiftless. And their state of poverty is essentially rewarded by the government, which is the fault of the government for perpetuating the cycle.

Each man makes his own decision. Cover from immoral decisions is not afforded by majority violation.

No one interpret this as me being buddy-buddy with Storky here, please. Just stating my opinion.

I would not dream of tarnishing you by association with me.

Best,

-SR

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-22 03:36am

Acacia wrote:I understand individual welfare, helping to keep people from starving, dying or living on the street. Especially, temporary assistance in times of need.

Me neither.

So long as that individual welfare is provided by voluntary means.

Theft from the producers for the benefit of non-producers is theft nonetheless.

Morality neither benefits from economy of scale, nor from nobility of intent.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-06-22 03:41am

Acacia wrote:But I have never understood business welfare. Buisnesses really should live and die on their own merits, in my opinion. If they can't make it, tough, they should not artificially succeed on the backs of taxpayers.

That is my opinion.

Yep, tell that to the husband who has to come home unemployed because the business he worked for went under. Tell that to the employee whose pension plan just vanished because of companies his portfolio heavily invested in companies that went under. It's easy to put the ugly face on companies and businesses but these endeavors have empoyees, people like you and me, and sometimes the only thing that may seperate you and me from these unemployed people is that governmental welfare that is given to companies to help them stay afloat.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-22 03:48am

Stravo wrote:
Acacia wrote:But I have never understood business welfare. Buisnesses really should live and die on their own merits, in my opinion. If they can't make it, tough, they should not artificially succeed on the backs of taxpayers.

That is my opinion.
Yep, tell that to the husband who has to come home unemployed because the business he worked for went under. Tell that to the employee whose pension plan just vanished because of companies his portfolio heavily invested in companies that went under. It's easy to put the ugly face on companies and businesses but these endeavors have empoyees, people like you and me, and sometimes the only thing that may seperate you and me from these unemployed people is that governmental welfare that is given to companies to help them stay afloat.

Your need is not a just claim on the property of others.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-22 05:01am

Funny, when my dad was laid off from Westinghouse Electric in the late 80s (through no fault of his own, they had lost several contracts and had to lay off alot of their people), between him and my mother they worked 3 jobs at any given time to make ends meet, but it still wasn't enough. Programs like welfare and food stamps and half priced school lunches, programs that said jackass wants to get rid off and probably would have thought us "Unamerican sheep" for being on in the first place, kept us off the streets until my dad got a decent job that could actually support us again, at which point we stopped being on said programs.

That guy above can kiss my ass.

The Question · Post by **The Question** » 2003-06-22 05:12am

^^^

Yer dad should have sought private charities instead of being a moocher.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-22 05:30am

The Question wrote:^^^

Yer dad should have sought private charities instead of being a moocher.

Both his parents worked three jobs to make ends meet, and you call them 'moochers'? What kind of human navel lint are you?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-22 05:49am

The Question wrote:Yer dad should have sought private charities instead of being a moocher.

My parents worked quite a few jobs between them to make ends meet. That hardly qualifies as being a moocher.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-06-22 05:56am

You know, some time in the future when automation is much further advanced than it is now, giving the dole to like 50% of the population may actually be quite necessary. Unless everyone change to become a researcher like I made my people do in Master of Orion II

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-06-22 06:27am

Man, this thread is nearly as bad as the guy who claimed that in all the cultures in the world people should be kicked out of their homes by their parents at 18 no matter what.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-22 06:29am

The Question wrote:(I posted this first a few days ago at TrekBBS. Enjoy, discuss and/or rip to shreds, as you see fit.)

Tired of being referred to as Kass' Bitch.

I'm tired of being Kass' Bitch, of being forced to clean her asscrack
out every night with a wet rag, and to lick her shit up. It takes away
so much time I could use to fuck CaptainChewbacca up the ass
like the bitch he is.

-SR

Not more shit like this!

*whips out Railgun and aims*

<(BZAPP!!!)>

{SPLAT!!}

*Shep laughs with glee as the Depleted-Uranium Rail Slug hits flesh at Mach 8. The massive hydroshock, the flash-vaporization, the violent stripping of flesh from bone, bone immediately shattering into tiny razor-sharp shards and getting propelled throughout his body at half the slug's speed instantly severs Stork Fucker's body at the waist and flays it into a rapidly-expanding cloud of chunky gibs, jagged ribbons of cooked meat, and crimson salsa...*

IMPRESSIVE!!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-22 06:37am

Deimos, is that you? Are you Stork Fucker?

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-06-22 07:11am

Another brilliant piece of rhetoric by MKSheppard, the Whoopee Cushion in the Moment of Silence of Life!

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-06-22 07:11am

Government has to walk a line between what is wanted, and what is possible.Somewhere between the unreachable, cruel extremes of total socialism, and uber capitalism,lies the form of government we can live with.

Gil's parents probably paid taxes far in excess of their temporay government assistance, both before, and since the taking of NEEDED funds.
This kind hearted outlook has some sound policies behind it. Had not Uncle Sam had stepped in to help, the social services/police step into the picture. The children are removed from the "dangerous" living condition. (Starving is deadly 100% of the time)The amount of money spent on court/admin costs for this can get staggering FAST.

Don't give me any crap about the gov not having a responsibility to protect the children from their own parents if need be. Even if inadequacy is the danger. If it can be observed and demonstrated.Protecting the rights of children is a compelling reason for interferance.

In the big picture, most of us grasp the concept of the social contract.

The idea that government, and society, must invest in it's citizens.
Pure capitalism will never pay for space travel, abstract research, and welfare. It is in your own interest to invest in human resourses.Society limits your ability to act, and taxes you.This is the price of civilisation.
The payoff is too far down the line for private investers to see a return that takes too long, and doesn't pay off as fast, or as well as buying into a buisness.
The payoff is there nontheless. Look at third world shitholes.Without the safety net clause of the social contract, disasters of a large scale turn 1st wolrd cities into 3rd world ones.Civilisation doesn't come with self repar driods.The system needs active inputs, or human nature will cause decay and eventual anarchy.Things like welfare are "shock absorbers" of society.They smoothout the "potholes" of random fate.When tuned properly, you don't notice the good they do. When they don't work, BOY is it obious how much better things were when they were working right.To stiff, (Painful bounces happen, and the economy/society must slow down, or crash) too soft, (don't help the handling, loss of controle, with a slowdown needed or you crash) and they don't help you drive in the road you are currently ON.
The road changes, and the stiffness must be adjustable. Hurricanes, earthquakes, catastophic ilnesse$, deaths, fires, and floods cannot be predicted, any more than corporate mergers and layoffs.They don't happen at convenient regular intervals.Yet they are disasters beyond the abilities of individuals to overcome. One man, who loses his job, in a town of 50,000, and hcan get other work. When 1000 people get laid off, all at once, it is not only harder to get reemployed, but the ripple effect will put about 100 more out of business as well.(caterers, donut stores, a borderline buisness just hanging on.
These 1100 people will be a drain on the system for a while, then get jobs again. BUT, not overnight.
Finding this balance is an art, not a science.There is also a bit of reacting to fate as well.
If you fall TOO far, you never get fully up. Many will not have relatives and friends to take up the slack.Losing a lifetime of work and savings.
Did you think that by rightiously proclaiming a principal, that these hungry people would nobley starve, rather than commit crime?I would seriously consider crime or giving up my kids to the state if it meant they would suffer otherwise.
Either would cost the taxpayers far more than a TEMPORARY loan.
Schools are cheaper than jails, subsidised medicine is cheaper than plaiges.Starving people are criminals, or public health hazzards in waiting.
Gil's parents are PRECISLY the intended use of such funds.They are now TAXPAYERS, not CONVICTS.The sucsessful outcome should not be mocked.
A temporary liability is now a great asset.

I don't think you completely grasp how cruel and nasty you sound.
Yes, yes, the style oversubstance crap.
People make desisions about what government spends based not only on the kind of things a state must have,(fire police/army courts)but on what ideas and values they want to promote.

You might think about advancing your cause in a less asshole mode of discourse.If a man tells the principals he lives by to the world, and is nasty, the truth is lost in the nastyness.
A fool will then get nastier, and claim victory in the realm of pure ideas, while sabotaging the progress his ideas are making in the REAL WORLD OF POLITICS. You know, the one where convincing people to see your point of view results in your ideas being actualy USED, instead of debaited.Win the debait, lose the referendum.
I was agreeing with you until your crack about Gil's parents.(ONLY three jobs? What lazy assholes)

Men who kick kittens seldom are tolerated, much less followed, mental acuity not withstanding. You're going to have a tough sell of your ideas packaged in such a manner.You are NOT off to a great start here.
Put on a Carmen Miranda hat, and no one will take you seriously, wrong or right.
Do you want your ideas actualy USED, or just be RIGHT?
Do you want actual good to happen,or is winning the debait enough?

The cradle to grave welfare you talk of no longer exsists in the USA. When your time is finaly up, you don't get no more money. It takes a while, but is does run out.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-22 07:14am

Um... no more than three jobs between them. Having a 9 year old and a 6 year old requires spending a little time at home too. But I do agree with you, the welfare system is useful for helping taxpayers who got hit below the belt by something they had no control over and who want nothing more than to get off of welfare (it took us three years, but we managed it, though as far as I was concerned, it meant that that the cardboard box lunch served at school was 45 cents instead of 90 and that I had to spend alot of time with playing cards with my grandmother after school).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-22 07:18am

SPOOFE wrote:Another brilliant piece of rhetoric by MKSheppard, the Whoopee Cushion in the Moment of Silence of Life!

I don't see you mocking the troll, so eat shit and die.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-06-22 08:28am

The Question wrote: Yer dad should have sought private charities instead of being a moocher.

Didn't you have to take Reading Comprehension tests in High School English, dumbfuck?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-22 08:29am

Andrew J. wrote: Didn't you have to take Reading Comprehension tests in High School English, dumbfuck?

He's a Troll Kingdom regular, so no.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-22 08:40am

The Question wrote:Tired of Sheep Being Referred to as "Americans"

No. A real american should be able to make a society from the ground up on his own and ignore a million disadvantaged people banging on his door

Honestly, with the attitudes of you colonials, sometime's I'm amazed you haven't destroyed yourselves by now.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-22 01:30pm

Ah, American Social Darwinism. Fuck Em All But Me mentality.

Of course, jackass here, should he fall on hard times, will know the shame of getting food stamps, standing on the dole queue, and being on the bottum rung. Governments exist to ensure the welfare of their people, not make it comfortable for those above some imaginary line. Otherwise we are just animals that slaughter the ones who can't catch enough meat for the pack.

This sort of argument is identical to every man's version of heaven: He never assumes he might suffer from it.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-06-22 04:36pm

TQ, once more you're proving to be a fucking asshole.
Here's a great idea....since the government is not obligated to help people on hard times...dont give them a fucking penny after all its your money.....
Or is that a stupid idea?
Do you object to money spent on police or fire services?
After all your house isnt on fire right now so they are of no use to you....
You arent being robbed or mugged at the moment so damn spending money of police....

I know, lets stop paying the sanitation workers...you dont live in a literal shithole right now....but give it a week.....

Certainly sense must be applied to who gets what from the government, but have you forgotten that the government is BY the people FOR the people?
It isnt a fucking company out to make a profit.....

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-06-22 04:59pm

TQ, you must ba either a fucking faciast or a dip shit Republican to be that mean. What the hell happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..." Yes, I know there is abuse in the Welfare and Social Security programs, but that's no reason to go flying off the handle. When we, the US, have the most, we must give the most.

And then there's that little line in the Conststition that says "To promote the general welfare.."

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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