Mormonism

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-06-22 04:47am

Since it was written, "god" has made over a thousand "corrections" to the book of Mormon and even more to the Bible.

Bullshit. The only significant revision of the Book of Mormon was the adding of punctuation. The very first version had none... it was just a giant, run-on sentence, and thusly, nigh impossible to read.

As well, my brother wanted to attend the wedding and was not allowed to due to it being held in secret chambers of the Mormon church (the giant one in Salt Lake City) which non Mormons are not allowed in.

Oh, PLEASE, turn your Drama Queen mode off. "Secret chambers"... they consider it a sacred ceremony. Just because YOU see a wedding as an excuse to get pissed and vomit on the bride doesn't mean that Mormonism has any sinister undertones.

I wouldn`t be suprised if other people have used that line, but I came up with it myself one day.

Yeah, because it's SUCH a difficult connection to make...

One impression I have of them is that their faith is ruled by fear.

More bullshit. One wry joke by one missionary doesn't make it official church doctrine.

They wouldn't give you their bible unless you leave an address for contact, and I won't do that.

Actually, walk into just about any Mormon church around and you'll find a BoM, free, sitting on a table.

Hate to break it to you, Perinquus , but the Mormon church recently decided the "Book of Abraham" wasn't really part of the gospel, and has been dropped from their cannon.

Guess they didn't want to look like fools.

Or maybe they're just capable of changing with the times, albeit slowly.

Which changes what, really? My point was that Joseph Smith was a flim flam man. How does this refute that assertion? Whether they accept it as canon or not, the fact remains, it was still a fraud perpetrated by Joseph Smith, their founder.

So, because he was wrong about one thing, he was wrong about everything? Please, religion is silly, but you can still argue against it rationally. "Debating fallacies" do not simply apply to Vs. debates.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-06-22 05:13am

SPOOFE wrote:
Or maybe they're just capable of changing with the times, albeit slowly.

So the will of the almighty, inerrant, perfect diety changes with the times eh?

SPOOFE wrote: So, because he was wrong about one thing, he was wrong about everything? Please, religion is silly, but you can still argue against it rationally. "Debating fallacies" do not simply apply to Vs. debates.

Wrong about one thing? Dude, he was a boldfaced, brassbound, lying FRAUD! He made up the Book of Abraham. There is such a thing as credibility. Why in the name of hell should I believe anything a proven fraud has to say about the very subject matter in which he committed his fraud?

This is not just "Debating fallacies" guy. Dishonesty is dishonesty. Fautly logic is faulty logic. It doesn't just apply to debates. Where the hell did you get the idea that it did? Faulty logic indicates bad or sloppy thinking. This applies just as much to religion as it does to anything else.

Ravencrow · Post by **Ravencrow** » 2003-06-22 06:19am

More bullshit. One wry joke by one missionary doesn't make it official church doctrine.

I didn't say it was an official church doctrine, I say it gave me an impression. Kindly learn to read carefully what is said before shooting off bullshit.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-06-22 07:18am

So the will of the almighty, inerrant, perfect diety changes with the times eh?

Mormons - ones that are comfortable with their religion, at least - will up-front admit that whatever God tells them is subject to interpretation.

Wrong about one thing? Dude, he was a boldfaced, brassbound, lying FRAUD! He made up the Book of Abraham. There is such a thing as credibility. Why in the name of hell should I believe anything a proven fraud has to say about the very subject matter in which he committed his fraud?

When the hell did I say that you should believe what he says? I just pointed out the debating fallacy you were using.

This is not just "Debating fallacies" guy. Dishonesty is dishonesty. Fautly logic is faulty logic. It doesn't just apply to debates. Where the hell did you get the idea that it did? Faulty logic indicates bad or sloppy thinking. This applies just as much to religion as it does to anything else.

Because you're ranting and raving about the stupidity of Mormonism, but in the process you're acting just as nutty as some of them can be. Wipe the foam off your chin and move on. If it comforts them to believe that Joe got some gold plates, let 'em at it.

I guess what I'm saying is to live and let live.

I didn't say it was an official church doctrine, I say it gave me an impression. Kindly learn to read carefully what is said before shooting off bullshit.

Follow your own advice and re-read what you said: "One impression I have of them is that their faith is ruled by fear."

You made a general - and terribly wrong - conclusion about the religion based on ONE off-the-cuff remark (well, gesture) by one of their members. That, my dear sir (or madam), is enough for me to call your conclusion "bullshit".

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-06-22 07:26am

That's interesting. I had no idea you were a part of the CoLDS, SPOOFE. Or are you?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-22 07:34am

Kitsune wrote:My niece fell into that trap. As well, my brother wanted to attend the wedding and was not allowed to due to it being held in secret chambers of the Mormon church (the giant one in Salt Lake City) which non Mormons are not allowed in.

That's bullshit. If anyone tried to pull that crap on me.....not allowing
the bride's FAMILY in...grrr.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-06-22 08:04am

SPOOFE wrote:Mormons - ones that are comfortable with their religion, at least - will up-front admit that whatever God tells them is subject to interpretation.

So in other words, you can't know the will of God, just someone's interpretation of it. How convenient.

SPOOFE wrote:When the hell did I say that you should believe what he says? I just pointed out the debating fallacy you were using.

Really? I must have missed it. I don't recall you pointing one out. Which one is it?

SPOOFE wrote:Because you're ranting and raving about the stupidity of Mormonism, but in the process you're acting just as nutty as some of them can be. Wipe the foam off your chin and move on. If it comforts them to believe that Joe got some gold plates, let 'em at it.

Oh gimme a break.

Good lord you're an idiot. My posts on this topic have been strictly limited to simple facts and a very straightforward and logical interpretation of those facts. I haven't even used harsh language. Only someone with limited understanding of simple, declarative English sentences can consider that "ranting and raving". The only thing I might be considered to have gotten slightly worked up about is your ridiculous suggestion that, despite the fact that I am dealing strictly with public record facts and allowing these facts to lead me to conclusions which are both obvious and logical, I am not arguing rationally. That and your pathetic attempt to characterize Smith's obvious fraud as merely being "wrong". He wasn't just wrong; he was committing fraud. It is one thing to be in error; it is something else again to perpetrate a falsehood knowingly. Smith did the latter.

Let me break it on down for you: Joseph Smith is incontrovertibly proven to have promulgated a wholly false "translation" of ancient Egyptian papyri, whose actual subject matter bears no resemblance whatever to what Smith was claiming. Therefore, the only possible conclusion is that Smith wasn't translating at all; he was fabricating. Since he supposedly derived his translation of the Book of Mormon in a similar way to the proven fake, "The Book of Abraham", one must suspect The Book of Mormon also to be a fabrication of Smith's. Consequently, the sheer weight of evidence against the origins Smith's work, all of which is a matter of public record, leads a logical observer to conclude that those who, nevertheless, still believe Joseph Smith to have been a divinely inspired messenger are credulous dupes.

SPOOFE wrote:I guess what I'm saying is to live and let live.

And I advocated not letting the Mormons live and worship as they like where, exactly?

Ravencrow · Post by **Ravencrow** » 2003-06-22 08:15am

Follow your own advice and re-read what you said: "One impression I have of them is that their faith is ruled by fear."

You made a general - and terribly wrong - conclusion about the religion based on ONE off-the-cuff remark (well, gesture) by one of their members. That, my dear sir (or madam), is enough for me to call your conclusion "bullshit".

I know what I said. I don't need you to misinterpret what I say. I didn't make any conclusions. You can call it bullshit, but you still haven't provided any kind of useful info or counter argument to convince me otherwise.

Your method of proving me wrong is cheap. I can do the same:

"One impression I have of them is that their faith is ruled by fear."

But I won't, and so it stands:

"One impression I have of them is that their faith is ruled by fear."

Is this wrong? Then prove to me (edit: or produce something that shows) that they are otherwise, or shut up.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-22 08:53am

SPOOFE wrote: Oh, PLEASE, turn your Drama Queen mode off. "Secret chambers"... they consider it a sacred ceremony. Just because YOU see a wedding as an excuse to get pissed and vomit on the bride doesn't mean that Mormonism has any sinister undertones.

I stand by my secret chambers......I have talked to at least two other Mormons who told me that there are specific places in the Temples where non mormons are not allowed to go. I am nto saying that they sacrifice babies but they have secret places where they do not want others to go.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-22 08:36pm

The secret chambers bit is most definetly a fact. No non-mormons are permitted access to any part of a Mormon temple beyond the public foyer.

Marriages include the giving of secret names so as the spouses can identify each other in heaven.
Temple Garments(holy underwear, Batman!) have three lines on them to show where your body will be cut into sections if you ever reveal the secrets of the Mormon church. And if that isn't the most blatant rip-off of Freemasonry I've ever heard of, I'll translate some golden tablets with my Seer-Stones for ya!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-22 09:13pm

SPOOFE wrote:When the hell did I say that you should believe what he says? I just pointed out the debating fallacy you were using.

SPOOFE, it is not a "debating fallacy" to point out that someone is a con artist by demonstrating an example of said behaviour.

When a church's doctrines rest solely on the authority of one man (a debating fallacy in and of itself), it is ridiculous to be nonchalant about that one man being proven to be a con artist. Indeed, any approach to the Book of Mormon other than "it's a joke" is a logical fallacy, since it presents no supporting evidence and asks us to accept its claims based solely on the authority of its author.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-06-22 09:33pm

Frank Hipper wrote: Temple Garments(holy underwear, Batman!) have three lines on them to show where your body will be cut into sections if you ever reveal the secrets of the Mormon church.

I wonder how serious they are about doing that.

At least the Freemasons have legitimate world-domination secrets to keep hidden.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-22 09:50pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote: Temple Garments(holy underwear, Batman!) have three lines on them to show where your body will be cut into sections if you ever reveal the secrets of the Mormon church.
I wonder how serious they are about doing that.

At least the Freemasons have legitimate world-domination secrets to keep hidden.

They obviously aren't, the Mormon who provided that info would be history by now.

And in that book I mentioned a few posts back, the author hints that world domination isn't technically a Mormon strategy, but the way things were going at the time it was written, they were becoming one of the most significant real estate holders in the world. Where they stand now, I don't know.

Factoid for your edification: Lapsed Mormons are known as "Jack" Mormons.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-22 10:22pm

Frank Hipper wrote: Temple Garments(holy underwear, Batman!) have three lines on them to show where your body will be cut into sections if you ever reveal the secrets of the Mormon church. And if that isn't the most blatant rip-off of Freemasonry I've ever heard of, I'll translate some golden tablets with my Seer-Stones for ya!

I think I remember also hearing something along these lines with different underwear for virgin females as apposed to married females.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-06-22 11:07pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote: Temple Garments(holy underwear, Batman!) have three lines on them to show where your body will be cut into sections if you ever reveal the secrets of the Mormon church.
I wonder how serious they are about doing that.

At least the Freemasons have legitimate world-domination secrets to keep hidden.
They obviously aren't, the Mormon who provided that info would be history by now.

And in that book I mentioned a few posts back, the author hints that world domination isn't technically a Mormon strategy, but the way things were going at the time it was written, they were becoming one of the most significant real estate holders in the world. Where they stand now, I don't know.

Factoid for your edification: Lapsed Mormons are known as "Jack" Mormons.

They stand very well, indeed they stand very well. They own vast tracks of land in Utah (Idaho, Colorado, Arizona, and other states), they own various companies (newspapers at that) and own massive stock in various blue chips such as coke and pepsi. They might worship God, but they deffinately have more money than the devine spirit does.

Shit, they even bought a chunk of main street and are trying to stop the 'easment' (which provides for the free access of the people to walk down the sidewalk) and put into place restrictions such as speach, dress codes, and the like.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-06-22 11:11pm

Knife wrote:Shit, they even bought a chunk of main street and are trying to stop the 'easment' (which provides for the free access of the people to walk down the sidewalk) and put into place restrictions such as speach, dress codes, and the like.

Sounds like you're talking about Mesa, Az.
Exactly.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-23 01:08pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:When they showed her the picture of the Quorum of the Twelve (yes, it sounds like something from Battlestar Galactica but it's really how they operate)

Where do you think the guy who wrote BSG got the idea? He's a mormon! There is LOTS of Mormon theology in BSG if you are familiar with the religion. In the Mormon church, marriage is refered to a "being sealed" together and it is for all eternity, not just till death do you part. In BSG its the same (see "Lost Planet of the Gods" and "The Man With Nine Lives")

she stopped them in midsentence and asked one question: "why are they all old white men?"

For the first 100 or so years of the Mormon church's history, the vast majority of their proselyting success was in England, New England and Canada, even though missionaries were being sent to the American Indians from day one. As such the vast numbers of people who joined were white. Its only been in the last 30-40 years that people of other races have started joining in significant numbers. You don't take a recent convert and make him an apostle.

Furthermore, once someone becomes an Apostle, there are only two ways out. One is to leave the church completly and the other is feet first. As such they have an extremely low turn over rate.

They had no answer. She told them to get back to her when they could produce an answer. They never came back.

They weren't very quick. If they were, they would have showed her the accompanying picture of "The Seventy" which has several non-whites in it.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-23 01:24pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Until twenty years ago, only white people were open to be saved, and Native Americans (First Peoples) were dark-skinned because they had apparently turned against God in the days of Nephi.

Try not to let anti-mormon distortions into an analysis. The Book of Mormon says NOTHING about skin color's effect on "being saved". According to what is ACTUALLY in the Book, one group of people was trying to kill the other, so they were given the dark skin color in ONE INCIDENCE so group B would know who was trying to kill them.

Read in 4th Nephi that describes the HI POINT of the civilization. There we NO racial divisions. Both dark skinned and light skinned people lived together in peace and had eliminated the entire concept of race (or in the terminology of scripture "-ites"). One of the first signs of the society's decline was when they started segregating again.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-23 01:26pm

Darth Servo wrote:For the first 100 or so years of the Mormon church's history, the vast majority of their proselyting success was in England, New England and Canada, even though missionaries were being sent to the American Indians from day one. As such the vast numbers of people who joined were white. Its only been in the last 30-40 years that people of other races have started joining in significant numbers. You don't take a recent convert and make him an apostle.

The fact that they barred blacks from the church until the 1970s didn't help either, did it?

They weren't very quick. If they were, they would have showed her the accompanying picture of "The Seventy" which has several non-whites in it.

They have a second bureaucratic layer of pompous asses beneath the Quorum of the Twelve? After I read one of the "church elder's" diatribes against premarital kissing, I can't believe anyone takes their shit seriously (even if they don't know about their despicable past).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-06-23 01:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:After I read one of the "church elder's" diatribes against premarital kissing, I can't believe anyone takes their shit seriously (even if they don't know about their despicable past).

Most people think it makes sense to be a part of a church they often disagree with and knowingly practice a pitiful watered-down PC version of their dogma. Meanwhile other faiths would more fit their beliefs but they don't budge. Why? I don't know. But observe most American Catholics. Best example.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-06-23 01:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:The fact that they barred blacks from the church until the 1970s didn't help either, did it?

They DIDN'T bar blacks from the chruch. They were denied the priesthood but NOT memberships. I know. Its still discrimination.

But its not as clear cut as that either. Joseph Smith had a black man in "The Seventy" and the Mormon prophet in the 1950's (David O' MacKay) extended full priveledges of the Priesthood to several blacks in 1958.

They weren't very quick. If they were, they would have showed her the accompanying picture of "The Seventy" which has several non-whites in it.
They have a second bureaucratic layer of pompous asses beneath the Quorum of the Twelve? After I read one of the "church elder's" diatribes against premarital kissing, I can't believe anyone takes their shit seriously (even if they don't know about their despicable past).

A lot of people in the church don't listen to everything the leaders say either. Like any religion, it has its fundies, its moderates and its liberals.

pellaeons_scion · Post by **pellaeons_scion** » 2003-06-25 03:14am

As a child brought up in a Mormon household, with a fanatical father, and being indoctrinated in the ridiculousness of their beliefs I have read this thread with interest. Reading the Book of Mormon and the rest of their idiotic books as a child everyday, Im suprised I didnt turn out to be a die hard racist. The whole book of Moron is basically a diatribe on a war of light vs dark...not just in ethic but skin color. I cant quote any of the passages because I refuse to even look at that book anymore.

If their beliefs are taken too far it gets truly insane. Can you imagine being forced to your knees and praying for two hours for forgiveness because you had a caffenated drink? Or, instead of being taken to hospital for a deadly asthma attack, they summoned the elders to lay hands on you? ( I actually got worse

)

The bible they use almost as a supplement to the BoM, and the Covenants and Testaments. Looking back you can draw some parellels with the Noah and the ark with the fleeing of the Nephites to america.

Just as an aside I read a passage when at church that I did remember it was something like "There is one god for this world, But MANY gods for MANY worlds"...an idea which I thought was quite free thinking for them.

But the pillagmy, bigotism, hypocracy, paternalistic attitude of that place makes my skin crawl.

As for secret places no one is allowed to go in the temple, that is correct. Sometimes you had to be a certain rank to get into certain areas. Its truly a cult, not a church. Only Cults recruit by doorknocking and trying to inflict their beliefs on you. They are masters at brainwashing, turning people into sheep.

Oh and heres another thing. DOnt think that because you left the church your safe if your a woman. My mother divorced my father many eons ago...still she is harrassed by them. The latest stupidity is that she had to 'give' my father her blessing to get married again. Not that she cared about the marriage part..but the fact they tracked her down from 5 different residences to find her even across 2 states...like fuckin bloodhounds. Once your in, your in, and if your a woman attatched to a man from the church, then you could expect a shit load of harrasment from the church. They still refuse to accept that they are divorced, so in their eyes she cant move on, but he can happily marry someone else (marriage 4)....

Kill them. Kill the lot of them, and burn their temples into the dust. Ill provide the petrol

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-06-25 03:31am

The number one medical condition suffered by married women in Utah is stress ulcers. They're paralyzed with fear, because if the husband doesn't "call them out" after Christ returns, they can't go into heaven.

So you better please hubby, because he has final say on your salvation.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-25 07:19am

Best way to start if they come to your door (Works on JWs too). Ask them to kindly stop trespassing on your land and talk to you from the street. Really takes the wind out of their sails...

Then ask them to close the gate.

Then either debate them and give them an inferiority complex, or shut the door and laugh.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-25 07:21am

He he. Quorum of the twelve? Do they have a traitor called Baltar who sold them out to the Secularons?