Endor's moon...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Endor is part of the many "canon:official direct smash" series.

Like all the others (Executor, DSII, even DSI, perhaps the domes,) it is logically derived canon observations and calculations versus officials.

Like all the others, official statements are almost completely/completely against the theory. In fact, Endor is already better in this regard. At least you can bend wording, as compared to the difficulty of bending 5 miles into 11.

Like all the others (AFAIK at least,) there have been no satisfactory rationalization proposed, either official or fanmade. (And no, I don't think "vaping" the stuff does it - Saxton precountered the idea, and it can be adapted to reach Reb attempts to vape the material for themselves.)

So, IMHO at least, if you agree with 11 mile Executors, 900km DSIIs and all that, then you agree that logical canon observations can override officials and short of a yet-to-come brillliant rationalization, Endor is dead by that token. At most a small patch was preserved or rebuilt later.

If you agree with the officials, then Endor lives.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Precisely.

Endor is dead the same reason why the Executor is 17.6 kilometers long, and the Death Star is 900 kilometers in diameter.

It is the direct consequence of easily observed circumstances in canon. Under suspension of disbelief, Endor should be dead. The mass of the Death Star II doesn't just vanish.

I mean, sure, you could paste all the explanations together for a frankenstein "fix" for why it didn't happen, but that's still terribly unlikely, and I find it more believable that Durron's crazy, the NR's embaressed, and the planet was terraformed and is being restored later.

Regardless of what you find more credible, the evidence stands that Endor should have been rendered an inert rock.

It is better than you constantly bringing up total bullshit about the Rebel fleet vaping the debris

Actually, it is not, because that theory has evidence and standing in official literature. "Official" may not be canon, but it's a helluva lot higher on the ladder than "fan speculation".

Ah. So WEG is right about ships, Aurebesh, and a thousand other barely researched things that the movies imply is wrong?

[ClaysGhost]

Precisely.

Endor is dead the same reason why the Executor is 17.6 kilometers long, and the Death Star is 900 kilometers in diameter.

It is the direct consequence of easily observed circumstances in canon. Under suspension of disbelief, Endor should be dead. The mass of the Death Star II doesn't just vanish.

What do you think of Saxton's comments on the conditions that should prevail on Yavin's moon, based on the orbit shown during the DS1 approach to it?

[Vympel]

My problem with the Endor holocaust theory is that I don't see the Rebel Alliance having a nice happy party complete with fireworks, music, and dancing, the very night the battlestation exploded- if that amount of debris was hurtling towards the moon and impacting. How long would it have taken?

[Sea Skimmer]

My problem with the Endor holocaust theory is that I don't see the Rebel Alliance having a nice happy party complete with fireworks, music, and dancing, the very night the battlestation exploded- if that amount of debris was hurtling towards the moon and impacting. How long would it have taken?

It should have begun happening within minutes, the Death Star was too close to the planet to be in orbit so anything blown towards the planet would have crashed almost at once. I've seen it suggested that the Rebel fleet might have been able to extend its shields to protect an area of the planet for a short period. But the skies would have filled with dust rapidly anyway.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Ah. So WEG is right about ships, Aurebesh, and a thousand other barely researched things that the movies imply is wrong?

"Imply" is way too weak for this kind of work. Try "show" or "demonstrate"

[Illuminatus Primus]

My problem with the Endor holocaust theory is that I don't see the Rebel Alliance having a nice happy party complete with fireworks, music, and dancing, the very night the battlestation exploded- if that amount of debris was hurtling towards the moon and impacting. How long would it have taken?

Don't get me wrong; Jerrjerod could've fired the engines once the repulsor assembly was destroyed with the rest of the base (the DS II didn't exactly fall out of the sky) and as such given much of debris a delayed momentum. I think the Rebels would certainly have blown up or deflected as much of the large impactors as possible while they had guys on the surface.

The point is, no matter if they vaporize the matter, it will still crystalize and fall into Endor; smaller particles will probably have a less noticable affect and that kind of fallout would be considerably delayed. Apart from the visible "comet" chunks, the Death Star appeared clearly vaporized.

This leaves another point. Why didn't the explosion of the Death Star II (almost certainly extremely energetic) sterilize/flash burn the surface directly below?

I lean toward the idea that there was a seperate deflector shield from the one that protected the Death Star. This deflected the larger/high-velocity impacts in the vicinity of the after-battle celebration, but eventually dust from the explosion would've choked Endor's biosphere.

[The Silence and I]

This whole topic is very confusing for me. I have heard that the DSII was prepared to fire on Endor when it blew apart, yet for something charged up with so much energy its explosion was whimpy Even if it was not charged up it was still a whimpy explosion. At that altitude the explosion should have blasted a huge freaken crater into the planet, even shattered all of Endor! 1E32+J released like that should have been absolutely devestating . Instead, the people on Endor get to look up at the exploding DS, without even being temporaliy blinded!!!! And then people get to puzzel over Endor's delayed fate... it should have died then and there. End of story. This is why this is confusing.

This is my take on it:
There was no EMP wave to end all EMP waves as nothing happened to the Droids, blasters, whatever. There was no visible light burst to end all visible light bursts, as no one was blinded. And there was no sudden (at that range it would have been a matter of seconds for some debris, minutes for others) metior shower to end, well, you know . The rebel fleet could not have been responsible for all of this, there simply must have been some kind of planetary shield, even a large area shield might do for a few hours. This shield would have to be able to filter out incoming harmful levels of light, and withstand lots of debris. If it was a full out shield, Endor could have survived, if not, say good by to the Ewoks.

(Alternatively the DS was made out of styrofoam and had a large fire cracker inside, thus limiting the damage done to other areas when it blew up)

[Illuminatus Primus]

*snip*

Exactly. Which is why I favor the "independent tactical shield" theory.

It explains why the large fragments didn't blow up the celebration, and why the holocaust affect way delayed. As well as accounting for why they weren't killed with hard radiation and heat.

[NecronLord]

antimatter and that stuff has be know to blow up whole asteroids using one gram.

You mean one kilogram right?

[CaptainChewbacca]

antimatter and that stuff has be know to blow up whole asteroids using one gram.

You mean one kilogram right?

In the "Young Han Solo" adventures, one of Han's academy friends stole a gram of antimatter to blow the logo off the "Mascot Moon". Instead it blew up the entire moon.

I agree with Silence. The party scene refutes an impending appocalypse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree with Silence. The party scene refutes an impending appocalypse.

Why? Tiny particulate matter and a theater shield will mean the apocalypse will be considerably delayed, and the Rebels evac-ed a lot of Ewoks anyway.

And the Mascot Moon isn't neccessarily any bigger than a dozen meter rock.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

This is my take on it:
There was no EMP wave to end all EMP waves as nothing happened to the Droids, blasters, whatever. There was no visible light burst to end all visible light bursts, as no one was blinded. And there was no sudden (at that range it would have been a matter of seconds for some debris, minutes for others) metior shower to end, well, you know . The rebel fleet could not have been responsible for all of this, there simply must have been some kind of planetary shield, even a large area shield might do for a few hours. This shield would have to be able to filter out incoming harmful levels of light, and withstand lots of debris. If it was a full out shield, Endor could have survived, if not, say good by to the Ewoks.

(Alternatively the DS was made out of styrofoam and had a large fire cracker inside, thus limiting the damage done to other areas when it blew up)

I hadn't watched ROTJ for a while. But I definitely do remember the DS1 explosion (DS1 was also blown up when nearly ready to fire,) and it wasn't all that violent in terms of light intensity either as viewed from space (and thus no planetary shield could be blocking the light and all.) I don't remember clear visual evidence saying they dimmed the scene deliberately either.

Forgive me if I missed something. I hadn't watched both in awhile.

My guess is that there is some kind of mega-capable safety inside the system, so that in case of system failure, it'd convert the released energy into the most harmless emission possible (like neutrinos - they do that for the Acclamator.) Only a relatively small amount of energy was allowed to be in harmful form, and that vaporized the station (which may have enough tough parts in it to absorb more of the energy,) until only a tiny amount of EM energy and a relatively small amount of KE is left.

Just a thought...

[CaptainChewbacca]

Well, the moon's logo was visible from the surface, so It had to be above the Roche limit, which means it would have been far away, and to be visible I think it would have been on the order of 2000-3000 km in diameter.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, the moon's logo was visible from the surface, so It had to be above the Roche limit, which means it would have been far away, and to be visible I think it would have been on the order of 2000-3000 km in diameter.

I can see the ISS from Earth.

The logo was visible by the naked eye?

[CaptainChewbacca]

As I understand it. It was visible to troops on review on the moon's surface. Like a billboard or something. My books are currently 350 miles away, but anyone with the second book can find the passage where Han recalls seeing the moon explode.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well either the quantity of antimatter or the size of the moon was wrong.

I'd rather say that the object was visible but not the logo (exaggeration) rather than quibble over what a gram is in SW, or that they said gram and meant much more.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Maybe the moon was made of naquada

[DPDarkPrimus]

IIRC, it didn't destroy the whole moon, just a good-sized chunk of it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Christ. The Han Solo/Mako Spince moon incident was done to death long ago. don't resurrect an old debate. :Roll:

(oh yes, and IP, don't start that "it must be wrong cuz it doesnt fit into my narrowminded view" bullshit. you're enough of a fucking synchophant-troll as it is.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

(oh yes, and IP, don't start that "it must be wrong cuz it doesnt fit into my narrowminded view" bullshit. you're enough of a fucking synchophant-troll as it is.)

Fuck you Connor.

How is it that Essential Guides...does not over rules the 17.6 km Executor, but but the Endor holocaust didn't happen because of it, and better yet, something from fucking Tales is used as a mechanism, even though last I checked turbolasers don't cause matter to just vanish.

I mean, it is possible it didn't happen, but that requires excepting a freakish list of possibilities including speculation and shit from GoDV, when I and others, think its more plausable that Durron is just a whacko and the NR hushed it up and fixed up the planet later.

Either way its ugly because no one addressed it until Saxton brought it up, at least to my knowledge.

[The Silence and I]

This is my take on it:
There was no EMP wave to end all EMP waves as nothing happened to the Droids, blasters, whatever. There was no visible light burst to end all visible light bursts, as no one was blinded. And there was no sudden (at that range it would have been a matter of seconds for some debris, minutes for others) metior shower to end, well, you know . The rebel fleet could not have been responsible for all of this, there simply must have been some kind of planetary shield, even a large area shield might do for a few hours. This shield would have to be able to filter out incoming harmful levels of light, and withstand lots of debris. If it was a full out shield, Endor could have survived, if not, say good by to the Ewoks.

(Alternatively the DS was made out of styrofoam and had a large fire cracker inside, thus limiting the damage done to other areas when it blew up)

I hadn't watched ROTJ for a while. But I definitely do remember the DS1 explosion (DS1 was also blown up when nearly ready to fire,) and it wasn't all that violent in terms of light intensity either as viewed from space (and thus no planetary shield could be blocking the light and all.) I don't remember clear visual evidence saying they dimmed the scene deliberately either.

Forgive me if I missed something. I hadn't watched both in awhile.

My guess is that there is some kind of mega-capable safety inside the system, so that in case of system failure, it'd convert the released energy into the most harmless emission possible (like neutrinos - they do that for the Acclamator.) Only a relatively small amount of energy was allowed to be in harmful form, and that vaporized the station (which may have enough tough parts in it to absorb more of the energy,) until only a tiny amount of EM energy and a relatively small amount of KE is left.

Just a thought...

You are absolutely right-on about the explosion seen from space...it was too dim and too placid. Your neutrino idea has merit, but a theatre shield or greater is still necessay to explain the lack of debris before/during the party. Although flashes from the debris hitting this assumed shield should still be quite visible, unless the planet had rotated far enough away from the explosion by the time of the party... hmm. But that might imply the DS had stopped orbiting before it blew up.
I can go with the safety systems to refere to shunting most of the energy into hyperspace or as neutrinos once the reactor damage was detected. Perhaps if given enough time all the energy could have been shunted away leaving the station intact, but without main power. However it appears just enough energy was left to violently fragement the station... this has merit, I think

[ClaysGhost]

You are absolutely right-on about the explosion seen from space...it was too dim and too placid.

Most of the energy could have been radiated away in other forms besides visible light naturally, without requiring any sort of emergency system. Explosions in space are going to look less impressive than explosions on Earth because the atmosphere isn't there to absorb and re-radiate the energy in other forms. It depends on the mechanism, but there are plenty of sources that radiate more power in invisible bands of EM or as completely different forms of radiation (nuclear weapons in space are one example).

An emergency system is pretty unlikely for political reasons, I think; would the Empire go to extraordinary lengths to minimise the damage from the DS exploding? If the DS is destroyed then either some sort of catastrophic accident has occurred (in which case, the command staff would be unworthy of surviving the loss of such a important status symbol for the Emperor) or a very powerful enemy has engaged it and destroyed it (small fighters flying into the superstructure notwithstanding), and minimising the blast would only help the attackers.

[LMSx]

Death Star was less than 100,000 miles from the planet, and the debris thrown of by the explosion would have been traveling hundreds of kps, so the deadly rain would have started falling.

*pic*

The DSII is huge!

[SPOOFE]

Ah. So WEG is right about ships, Aurebesh, and a thousand other barely researched things that the movies imply is wrong?

Don't know what the hell you're talking about here, Chuckles. I didn't mention WEG.

The movie does NOT imply ANYTHING about an "Endor Holocaust". It implies the exact OPPOSITE. If Saxton's theory was correct, there should have been drastic effects seen in the atmosphere within minutes. Yet the novelization describes the Good Guys partying at nighttime, overriding Saxton's notion that the darkness was caused by "dust" in the atmosphere. That would have been several hours after the destruction, and the effects that Saxton described would have been felt by then.

How is it that Essential Guides...does not over rules the 17.6 km Executor, but but the Endor holocaust didn't happen because of it,

Because there is clear evidence in the movies that the Executor is 17.6 kilometers. There is NO evidence in the movies that the Endor Holocaust happened, and there is evidence AGAINST the theory.

I mean, it is possible it didn't happen, but that requires excepting a freakish list of possibilities including speculation and shit from GoDV

No, it requires ONE possibility: Assuming that the Imperials installed a very, very common device in the planet that they use in ALL of their high-importance worlds... planetary shields that are not directly linked with the planet-based Death Star shield.

"At the center of the briefing room was a large, circular light-table, projected aboev which a holographic image of the unfinished Imperial Death Star hovered beside the Moon of Endor, whose scintillating protective deflector shield encompassed them both." -ROTJ novel page 71

We know from official literature that planetary shields - such as the one used on Coruscant - are segmented and utilize multiple generators. The destruction of the one shield generator as seen in the film would have, at most, destroyed one segment of the planetary shield... which would have been plugged up by the presence of the Rebel Fleet situated between the Death Star and the planet.

when I and others, think its more plausable that Durron is just a whacko and the NR hushed it up and fixed up the planet later.

Lemme get this straight: You think that it's implausible that the Empire, a group with insanely vast resources and industrial capacity, wouldn't install planetary shields, a (relatively) common technology, on one of their most important worlds?

Are you suggesting that the Empire has the industrial capacity to build a 900-kilometer-wide battlestation, in secret, without harming their economy, but can't spare a few planetary shield generators?