Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[Darth Wong]

I was contending a point made that 15 tons was the strength limit for Spider-Man's entire body, as AdmiralKanos had argued. The very first thing I said was that 15 tons was his benchpress.

Except that this was not the primary point; whether it is deadlift or overhead press strength is a nitpick against the main point, which is that Spidey can't possibly take that kind of force to his throat if it's comparable to the strength of his body. Even if his deadlift is twice his overhead press, it doesn't change the fact that the figures are not out by enough to make a difference.

I see no reason to believe force chokes are 15 tons of force. They were used to choke random human level durability characters.

They can apply that much force, dumb-ass. The fact that they can kill humans with far less doesn't change anything.

Didn't know that.

It's hard to tell when he uses one name to say Spidey maxes out at 15 tons for his full body while using the other name to say 15 tons is just his benchpress.

Wow, another idiot who thinks he can try to paint me as dishonest for having two user id's even though the equivalency is DESCRIBED IN THE GODDAMNED ANNOUNCEMENTS FORUM AT THE TOP OF THE FORUM LIST, YOU FUCKING MORON.

[KK]

They can apply that much force, dumb-ass. The fact that they can kill humans with far less doesn't change anything.

But you are trying to say they can apply 15 tons of force with the same ease as Vader's force chokes.

Jedi: "Grunt..argggh....twitch..."

Spidey: "Are you ok, dude?"

Jedi: "Raaaaah! Yeah...just...straining."

Spidey: "To do what?"

Jedi: "Apply...15 tons of force...to your throat..."

Spidey: "Oh." *sticks his thumb up his ass*

Wow, another idiot who thinks he can try to paint me as dishonest for having two user id's even though the equivalency is DESCRIBED IN THE GODDAMNED ANNOUNCEMENTS FORUM AT THE TOP OF THE FORUM LIST, YOU FUCKING MORON.

Having two ID's isn't dishonest.

It's just odd that you contradict yourself with them. Multiple internet handles and multiple personality disorder aren't the same thing.

[Darth Wong]

But you are trying to say they can apply 15 tons of force with the same ease as Vader's force chokes.

Since Vader was tearing machine components out of the wall WHILE FIGHTING LUKE WITH HIS LIGHTSABRE, that is a foregone conclusion.

It's just odd that you contradict yourself with them. Multiple internet handles and multiple personality disorder aren't the same thing.

Still trying desperately to pretend that your nitpick actually amounts to something, aren't you? Sorry, but you ARE using your whole body when you stand up and military-press something over your head. The fact that a deadlift is a more efficient use of your whole body is irrelevant; there is no contradiction, and you are a nitpicking jack-ass.

[KK]

[quote="Darth Wong"]
Since Vader was tearing machine components out of the wall WHILE FIGHTING LUKE WITH HIS LIGHTSABRE, that is a foregone conclusion.[quote]

Well that settles that. His force chokes had to be 15 tons of force if he could toss tubes and scrap metal around a room. And hence, all Jedi have casual 15 ton force chokes, since Vader isn't above average or anything, and tossing small bits of metal around is proof positive that he could casually exert 15 tons of force.

[Darth Wong]

Since Vader was tearing machine components out of the wall WHILE FIGHTING LUKE WITH HIS LIGHTSABRE, that is a foregone conclusion.

Well that settles that. His force chokes had to be 15 tons of force if he could toss tubes and scrap metal around a room.

Obviously, you are too ignorant to realize that a single 1/2" diameter bolt can easily hold more than a ton, so snapping large machine components out of their moorings is hardly as easy as tossing scrap metal around a room. It is becoming increasingly apparent that you lack even the rudimentary knowledge of an auto mechanic's junior apprentice.

And hence, all Jedi have casual 15 ton force chokes, since Vader isn't above average or anything, and tossing small bits of metal around is proof positive that he could casually exert 15 tons of force.

Your penchant for dishonest misrepresentation of the facts only hurts you, not me.

[KK]

Absolutely no reason to believe the things he threw were that hard to remove is a bit more reason than we actually have.

[Darth Wong]

Absolutely no reason to believe the things he threw were that hard to remove is a bit more reason than we actually have.

So what do you figure held them in place? Glue? We can see that they use metal brackets and bolt fasteners in SW; look at the components ripped out of the wall by Dooku in AOTC.

Your desperation grows more pathetic with each post. Now you've been reduced to misrepresenting a scene in which Vader casually rips machine components out of the wall into "throwing tubing", and pretending that they were probably not well-secured, because as we all know, nobody ever secures industrial machinery in place

[Typhonis 1]

Why would Vader need to exert 15 tons of force to chocke Ben when he could easily pinch an artery to Ben`s head and kill him that way?

[KK]

For all you know he used the force to unscrew the bolts, or the bolts weren't capable of holding a ton, or they weren't fastened with amazing security, or the mounting was weaker metal, or they were built right into the wall with no bolts, or any number of factors you have absolutely no way of knowing.

Or maybe it was like when fucking Captain America does the same sort of thing and nobody tries to make it out to be an ultra-impressive megaton feat.

[KK]

Why would Vader need to exert 15 tons of force to chocke Ben when he could easily pinch an artery to Ben`s head and kill him that way?

How did Vader get into this, anyway?

The whole point of using a regular Jedi was to avoid arguments based on Vader and his various insta-kill techniques. Vader's more powerful than the average Jedi, anyway.

[Darth Wong]

For all you know he used the force to unscrew the bolts, or the bolts weren't capable of holding a ton, or they weren't fastened with amazing security, or the mounting was weaker metal, or they were built right into the wall with no bolts, or any number of factors you have absolutely no way of knowing.

Having worked in many factories, I can assure you that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the components were properly secured unless you have some evidence to the contrary. Moreover, one does not need an exceptionally strong bolt to hold a ton on a half-inch diameter. And unscrewing the bolts would have taken too much time. Besides, we can SEE metal brackets bending and bolts snapping in AOTC when Dooku does it.

Or maybe it was like when fucking Captain America does the same sort of thing and nobody tries to make it out to be an ultra-impressive megaton feat.

Since no one mentioned megatons, and Captain America never ripped large machine components out of their moorings with TK, I can only assume that this is mere drug-induced rambling on your part.

[KK]

Having worked in many factories, I can assure you that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the components were properly secured unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

You worked in a factory, hence you are an expert on maintenence in Cloud City in the fictional Star Wars universe?


And on these embarrasingly telling words of fanboy dillusion, I'm out.

[Darth Wong]

Having worked in many factories, I can assure you that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the components were properly secured unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

You worked in a factory, hence you are an expert on maintenence in Cloud City in the fictional Star Wars universe?

Since their engineering and materials are clearly superior to ours, I can establish very conservative estimates based on my experience, yes. Do you seriously think that they should be weaker?

And on these embarrasingly telling words of fanboy dillusion, I'm out.

Speak for yourself. You lost, and you don't want to admit it. You've been reduced to claiming that SW uses cheap tinfoil brackets to hold on heavy machine components in order to preserve your lame-ass argument, and the pictures you presented as evidence only disproved your own position. Really quite a poor showing, all things considered.

[Typhonis 1]

Sorry my bad but the Jedi takes it. He is faster than Ben ((as was shown in TPM when they ran from the droidekas.Thanks for that info Wong)). he has precog powers that Ben doesnt have((IE he may know the nature of the danger whereas Ben could be fooled by a Doc Oc dummy on top of a remote bomb or Doc Oc could sneak up on him as he dismantles a bomb)).

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

I think this whole thing come down to who the Jedi is, because not all Jedi are as strong, or skilled as others. If he's up against Obi-wan, Yoda, Mace, Luke, Vader, he's gonna lose. But if it's someone like the Jedi Jango killed, then I think SS could take him down.

[Strider119]

I will post this again since you kinda just ignored it ....

Since he was trying to capture him alive, this would have been rather stupid, wouldn't it? Not to mention the Jedi Order's general weakness at the time, and the irrefutable fact that Yoda DID levitate multi-ton objects, but I can see that honest debating is not your M.O.

Well all this talk about Light side guys killing their opponents with force chokes and whatnot, I thought it would be more common pracite

but yet the big claim to fame for the choke is Vader (who is a teeny bit off from a Light Side jedi) and Luke (who was being torn between Light and Dark side at the time)

I didnt see Obiwan or Anakin or Yoda choking anyone ever. Even when Anakin and Obi were facing execution at the hands of those beasts

AND yes!!! you understand that Yoda used his powers defensively to move objects away from him!!! I am so happy!!! You finnaly understand the post i put up 2 pages ago!

I acknowledge that Yoda moved those objects. He moved the rocks from the ceiling, the Generator things on the wall, and an x-wing, and he did it all while concentrating very hard. He let Dooku escape because he was concentrating so intently on not letting that large wall unit thing fall on Obi Wan and Anakin. So while he takes that moment to concentrate on spidey, who is to say that Spiderman dosen't move in with his heightened speed and hit yoda? Or who is to say that he can squeeze harder than Spiderman can withstand? Or who is to say that a Light Side Jedi would even choke someone? certianly not me.


but still, Light Side Jedi are defensive prone, that is my point. Alot of their feats are done defensively while Dark Side feats are agressive and offensive. I don't think a true light side jedi will force choke an opponent right out of the gates or at all for that matter. Why didnt Obi Wan choke Jango into submission and not kill him? He could have just rendered him unconsious ... or the beast that were trying to kill him in teh execution arena, he could have choked them to death



and on a side note let me address something else. there is alot of name calling and personal attacks thrown into alot of the posts here. Now while I try and keep my arguments civil, some people like to resort to the logical fallacy of appealing to ridicule. Let me just state that that is one of the most common fallacies in logic and does nothing but weaken your argument, so leave the "asshole" and "liar" and "idiot" commnets at the door and stick to the debate. There is no need to be disrespectful to people who have different opinions than your own, it just makes you lok juvenile and makes you arguments seem flacid.




Also you keep mentioning vader even though the thread asks for light side jedi .... why is that? What does bringing in someone who has no bearing on the discussion at hand accomplish?





wiggel puppy:
Strider119

[Darth Wong]

but yet the big claim to fame for the choke is Vader (who is a teeny bit off from a Light Side jedi) and Luke (who was being torn between Light and Dark side at the time)

Bullshit. There is not a shred of evidence for Luke being "torn between Light and Dark side at the time". This took place at the BEGINNING of ROTJ, not the end, dumb-ass.

I didnt see Obiwan or Anakin or Yoda choking anyone ever. Even when Anakin and Obi were facing execution at the hands of those beasts

What part of "weakened in AOTC" did you not hear?

but still, Light Side Jedi are defensive prone, that is my point. Alot of their feats are done defensively while Dark Side feats are agressive and offensive. I don't think a true light side jedi will force choke an opponent right out of the gates or at all for that matter.

Luke did. Every single one of your examples of Jedi refusing to use these kinds of powers is based on AOTC, when they are known to be weak.

and on a side note let me address something else. there is alot of name calling and personal attacks thrown into alot of the posts here. Now while I try and keep my arguments civil, some people like to resort to the logical fallacy of appealing to ridicule.

"You're an idiot, therefore you're wrong" is a logical fallacy. "You are wrong because of <explain reason here>, therefore you're an idiot", on the other hand, is not a logical fallacy. It is not good manners, but it is not a logical fallacy.

Let me just state that that is one of the most common fallacies in logic and does nothing but weaken your argument, so leave the "asshole" and "liar" and "idiot" commnets at the door and stick to the debate.

Except that you ARE a liar and an idiot, since these points have been made before and you have ignored them. You ignore the fact that the Jedi are weak in AOTC, and you ignore the fact that Luke had no problems being "torn between the Light and Dark side" until the end of the movie.

There is no need to be disrespectful to people who have different opinions than your own, it just makes you lok juvenile and makes you arguments seem flacid.

Style over substance argument, fucktard.

Also you keep mentioning vader even though the thread asks for light side jedi .... why is that? What does bringing in someone who has no bearing on the discussion at hand accomplish?

Because for the umpteenth time, he demonstrates the extent of the capabilities being described, dumb-ass.

[FOG3]

A person armed with a sword is much more dangerous the one using fists. A sword can kill in one strike and gives its user additional reach. Despite what martial-artist movies would have you believe, sure just try that stupid flying kick stunt and watch as you impale yourself on my blade.

Fist on the other hand require mutiple blow to disable or knock out. High power stun blasts don't even work on fully trained Jedi. What can the Scarlet Spider do? Its not like we're using Cosmic Spiderman here.

[HemlockGrey]

I think that 'debate' was the most enjoyable one I've read in a long time.

[Strider119]

Bullshit. There is not a shred of evidence for Luke being "torn between Light and Dark side at the time". This took place at the BEGINNING of ROTJ, not the end, dumb-ass.

he obviously is being tempted by the darkside throughout the last 2 movies. He never really chooses the light side, just the anti-empire side. So while he is fighting the empire he isnt adhering strictly to the Jedi code. Yoda even comments on his being tempted by the dark side and his andger and whatnot.

What part of "weakened in AOTC" did you not hear?

Yeah, Yoda was so weakened that he moved very large objects around the room and pulled out a VERY impressive lightsabre battle. And they all did more impressive force tricks and sabre battles in the first 2 prequils than they did in the original trilogy. I would say they get weaker as the series goes on, if you judge by force powers and sabre battles.

"You're an idiot, therefore you're wrong" is a logical fallacy. "You are wrong because of <explain reason here>, therefore you're an idiot", on the other hand, is not a logical fallacy. It is not good manners, but it is not a logical fallacy.

Except that you ARE a liar and an idiot, since these points have been made before and you have ignored them. You ignore the fact that the Jedi are weak in AOTC, and you ignore the fact that Luke had no problems being "torn between the Light and Dark side" until the end of the movie.

Yoda says they have been weakened. Past tense. It has been going on for a while, and who is to say it ever gets better? Maybe he is saying they are weaker than they have been in the days of the old republic

Style over substance argument, fucktard.

that is style? to attack people who have different views than your own with verbal slander? you sure do have style. and class. way to go, you!

Because for the umpteenth time, he demonstrates the extent of the capabilities being described, dumb-ass.

But he isnt a light side jedi so his examples can be written off as "DARK" and therefore not admissable.




fast time at ridgemont high:
Strider119

[FOG3]

Tactical Swordsmanship
Use of Kicks
Index
Do not underestimate the effectiveness of a sword in competent hands.

[Lonestar]

I think that 'debate' was the most enjoyable one I've read in a long time.

I'm just pissed the OP is continueing with his clonewanking.

[Ender]

I'd like to point out that Shatterpoint had Mace Windu fighting with moves so fast he was nearly invisible. That, coupled with the lack of stated sonic booms, makes me think he was moving just under the speed of sound.

Interesting that the Ben side have only bitched about the Jedi, yet presented no argument as to how SS would win. I've seen "tie him up in webbing" which fails because Luke has dodged that kind of stuff before, and I've seen punch him and knock his ass out, which fails because Jedi can resist Stun blasts. So how will he win exactly? Maybe they should try presenting their arguments in addition to trying to tear dowen the Jedi ones.

[Ender]

Out of curiosity Mike, are you going to add a Jedi capabilities page in with all the updates you have said you are working on? Something along the lines of the PK essay to take care of debates like this?

[David Deas]

For all you know he used the force to unscrew the bolts, or the bolts weren't capable of holding a ton, or they weren't fastened with amazing security, or the mounting was weaker metal, or they were built right into the wall with no bolts, or any number of factors you have absolutely no way of knowing.

I think those fixtures and bolts would have been ideal for holding an X-Wing in place on a wall.

Vader could have simply tossed Luke's damned X-Wing out of the air with his uber TK during their assult on the Death Star if the wants to.


PIS. SvsFL!! PIS!!1